Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)  (Read 110975 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #330 on: July 12, 2015, 12:08:30 PM »
My order from Mouser arrived yesterday with the opamps and caps.  Since I plan to ship my unit out for modding tomorrow, I found a relatively quiet moment this morning to make a piano recording under conditions I can replicate very closely, at least as far as the recording goes.  I'll try to match my playing as closely as I can when the 70D comes back.

If anyone wants to hear the "before" version now, I can certainly post it - otherwise I'll wait until there's a comparison to be made.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline 2manyrocks

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1664
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #331 on: July 12, 2015, 09:23:41 PM »
Please wait and then post them so we can pick a favorite and then find out if it is the mod.

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #332 on: July 12, 2015, 11:58:23 PM »
I'll be running my Busman mod DR-70D this Wednesday at The Word / Wood Brothers in NYC, if anyone else has one and wants to compare.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #333 on: July 13, 2015, 12:42:43 AM »
I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB  :o
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
05/04 Harry Mack (?)
05/10 Adam Bodine Quartet
06/07 Bill Frisell Trio
06/08 Common
06/19 Sensational Barnes Brothers
06/20 Adam Bodine Quintet
07/19 Chali 2na & Cut Chemist
07/30 Tomorrows Bad Seeds

Offline PH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
  • can you fix it in the mix?
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #334 on: July 13, 2015, 12:46:26 AM »
I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB  :o

How did you determine this number? I would love to see the test results. Thx

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #335 on: July 13, 2015, 01:15:14 AM »
It was a while ago and I forgot to post.  I measured the self noise on LOW at full gain before and after the mod.  Plugged the files into my DAW and saw the dB difference.
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
05/04 Harry Mack (?)
05/10 Adam Bodine Quartet
06/07 Bill Frisell Trio
06/08 Common
06/19 Sensational Barnes Brothers
06/20 Adam Bodine Quintet
07/19 Chali 2na & Cut Chemist
07/30 Tomorrows Bad Seeds

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #336 on: July 13, 2015, 02:48:02 AM »
Quote
I measured the self noise on LOW at full gain before and after the mod.  Plugged the files into my DAW and saw the dB difference.
Using a 150 ohm dummy load, or just open circuit?

Offline Sonus Captor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #337 on: July 13, 2015, 02:01:43 PM »
I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB  :o


Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.

14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?

Best, SC

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3017
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #338 on: July 13, 2015, 08:14:30 PM »
I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB  :o


Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.

14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?

Best, SC

That is what I measured and a friend also measured the same amount when he evaluated it too.

I didn't do anything super scientific and don't even know what a dummy load is.  I did exactly what I said in the first post.  LOW gain setting at highest setting.  No mics plugged in.  Measured before and after mod.  Loaded into DAW...resulting dB difference was 13.5 - 14 dB less noise floor.  Take that FWIW.

Not sure what Busman's Mod or anyone else's mods do since they do not publish any types of specs.

Happy modding to you all...
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
05/04 Harry Mack (?)
05/10 Adam Bodine Quartet
06/07 Bill Frisell Trio
06/08 Common
06/19 Sensational Barnes Brothers
06/20 Adam Bodine Quintet
07/19 Chali 2na & Cut Chemist
07/30 Tomorrows Bad Seeds

Offline groovon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Gender: Male
  • rolling tape since 1963
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #339 on: July 13, 2015, 08:42:37 PM »
The input needs a 150-200 Ohm load to get a valid test result. And that's just for starters.

Dave

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #340 on: July 13, 2015, 08:45:21 PM »
I meant to post this a while ago, but the JWmod lowered the noise floor 14dB  :o


Hi everyone. This is my first post on Taperssection.

14 dB sounds like a phenomenal improvement. Are you shure it's not some sort of error?

Best, SC

That is what I measured and a friend also measured the same amount when he evaluated it too.

I didn't do anything super scientific and don't even know what a dummy load is.  I did exactly what I said in the first post.  LOW gain setting at highest setting.  No mics plugged in.  Measured before and after mod.  Loaded into DAW...resulting dB difference was 13.5 - 14 dB less noise floor.  Take that FWIW.

Not sure what Busman's Mod or anyone else's mods do since they do not publish any types of specs.

Happy modding to you all...

That's the same thing I did, except I did it at all 3 gain levels (then 4 with the later firmware).  Back when I first posted about they really noisy HIGH+ setting, I think Ozpeter may have mentioned the 150 ohm dummy load (which of course I do not have).

What I've since learned is that it's a measurement standard to have a 150 ohm resistor across pins 2 and 3 to load the circuit (as Dave just posted as I'm typing this).  The thread below seems to indicate that it's really a bit more complicated than that.  My takeaway is that such measurement is best left to people with the proper equipment and training:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/598851-how-can-i-measure-ein.html

EDIT: One significant thing mentioned in that thread is that running the open circuit is like have a huge resistor in there, and will be much noisier than a controlled, known load from a resistor or a mic.  So basically what you and I have done here in "measuring" the input noise seems to be making things appear much worse than they actually are. 

FWIW, when I did this I had the input set to MIC but with phantom off.  I imagine if phantom was enabled things would be even worse.  I know that these numbers aren't valid in terms of a true measurement, but the RMS levels of the files I recorded were:

LOW:    -80.80 dB
MID:     -75.56 dB
HIGH:   -62.18 dB
HIGH+: -50.19 dB
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 09:03:47 PM by voltronic »
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline Life In Rewind

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 883
    • www.rovingsign.com
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #341 on: July 13, 2015, 10:00:29 PM »
14db is A LOT!!!

Too much IMO - just on instinct.

If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!

I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...

14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\

Offline groovon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Gender: Male
  • rolling tape since 1963
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #342 on: July 13, 2015, 10:16:03 PM »
14db is A LOT!!!

Too much IMO - just on instinct.

If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!

I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...

14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\

What? You can't just make up numbers now??  ;D

Dave

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #343 on: July 13, 2015, 10:41:20 PM »
14db is A LOT!!!

Too much IMO - just on instinct.

If that was the case - then these preamps really SUCK!

I would expect a mod to improve noise - less than 6db - if that...

14db is from the "too good to be true" dept...c'mon!!! :-\

The stock pres definitely don't suck; they're just noisy at higher gain levels, which is to be expected at this price.  Here's the samples I posted recently - decide for yourself: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=172830.msg2151088#msg2151088

14dB does seem like a lot, but I'll see what shows up with mine.  I have no expectations of anything like that; I would be happy with any significant reduction in noise.  Regardless, I wish someone with the capabilities would do a real set of measurements so we could all stop spinning our wheels here.  I would even be willing to send my modded unit to one of our builders here on the board for testing if someone else does the same with a stock unit.  Maybe the community would chip in and reimburse us for our costs? ;D

I'm trying to be accommodating with people asking me to make a before / after recording, but as I said before there's so many variables it's not going to be anywhere close to a valid test - just something interesting to listen to.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline PH

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 673
  • Gender: Male
  • can you fix it in the mix?
Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #344 on: July 13, 2015, 10:50:27 PM »
From the published specs, the 70D has virtually no self noise. Certainly not a measurable 14db in stock condition. I find it difficult to believe that it would make much of a difference at all in self noise. In fact, it's certainly plausible that it would have more self noise after the mod (depending on the type of mod). The internal preamp is clean, quiet, and adequate for 95% of all uses.

I've run quite a few of my own comparisons with the quietest preamps known to man, Fred Forssell's SMP500's. (I own four of them plus a Grace 801-  http://www.forsselltech.com/products/2/ ) and while I do get a somewhat better sound overall using the outboard preamps, the difference is negligible to minor. Especially when we are talking about the reduced dynamic range associated with loud concerts. If we are tracking acoustic music in a recording studio, then by all means it will make a larger difference to get your signal much hotter before recording it to the 70D, but without a digital input you are using the internal preamp of the 70D in either case. If you were using a colored preamp, like the Neve stuff...then the outboard would provide a bit of color to the signal. With the type of clean preamps (sax,v3) most tapers would put in front of the 70D, all they are really really doing is providing a louder signal to the built-in Tascam preamp, thus reducing the need for a higher gain setting.

I'm all for modding the units to get a better or sweeter sound, but I think it would be difficult to make them more than a db or two quieter.
I've heard quite a few of JW's mods and I'm just not a fan of ripping apart well designed gear to clean up the signal path just for the sake of a cleaner path. It can easily lose it's musical quality. I once had a 414 B-ULS that JW had "cleaned" up and it just sounded horrible to my ears. I sent it to him for him to check it out and fix what was wrong with it....it came back with a note that said working perfectly, sounds great. No charge for the check up. A few months later, I took it to a studio session where we doing some shootouts on different mics and everyone hated it. Ha! I put it on ebay and clearly stated it was a JW Mod and had just been checked out by JW himself and I also stated I wasn't a fan of the sound in the ad. People went crazy for it, final bid was like $850. The guy that bought it never tried to return it, so to each his own. I guess I'm not a fan of his work, though I do admire his style.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 10:52:57 PM by PH »

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.208 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF