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Offline mantovibe

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2008, 03:13:39 PM »
Can anyone comment on the internal mics on the Tascam? One of the reasons that the H4 and R09 (which I have and have been very happy with) have been so popular among singers is because the mics in both units are sensitive enough to record acoustic music well, but also cope with the high SPL's that operatic voices throw at it on particular notes without distorting (particularly women's voices in high register).  Just curious. (Anybody have any samples they can point me to?).   

Thanks for all the input so far. 

The DR1 (to me) sounds better than R09, R09HR -and believe it or not- the Sony D-50, when using built in mics. The Sony is for sure less noisy and way better built, and the DR1 handling noise is the worst. But if you set it down and let it record, it sounds more natural than all the above.
Sorry, but I don't have A/B comparison samples.

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2008, 05:03:50 PM »
the DR1 handling noise is the worst. But if you set it down and let it record, it sounds more natural than all the above.

By that handling noise, I guess you mean noise transmitted to the internal mics, right? Did you record with an external mic?

I still could not see a graph for the DR1, like the one on another topic comparing the 09, 09HR and R44. Is it there anywhere?

Offline sunjan

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2008, 05:50:15 AM »
ultrabudget-and/or-prepared-to-be-a-bit-geeky
Better than a tape-recorder and will do in a pinch
Good
Better
Best (under $500)
Serious tapirs

To me, it's moot trying to list and classify recorders with just a simple label like this.
It all depends on the usage.

To simply categorize a certain recorder as "for serious tapers" is pretty pointless IMHO. You might be a serious high-end singer/taper, but for weight and handling concerns you might still go for a handheld bitbucket, but tack high-end mics + pre in front.

For a singer who values all-in-one units but doesn't have to worry about stealth issues, one type of recorder might appeal.
For a concert taper, other specs are more important. To each and one his own...

If you're looking for a comprehensive overview of small recorders with built-in mics, look here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107846.msg1439418.html#msg1439418
Most models have been covered in that thread.

A much better approach to this discussion is to outline your needs first, and pin down the ideal recorder based on those particular needs.
Maybe something like: "all-in-one, decent mics, low handling noise, max preferred size/weight, memory size/battery life demands, budget".
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 06:15:26 AM by sunjan »
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
Pres: Tinybox, CA-9100, UA5 wmod
Recorders: M10, H116 (CF mod), H340, NJB3
Gearbag: High Sierra Corkscrew
MD transfers: MZ-RH1. Tape transfers: Nak DR-1
Photo rig: Nikon D70, 18-70mm/3.5-4.5, SB-800

Offline divamum

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 07:29:09 AM »

To me, it's moot trying to list and classify recorders with just a simple label like this.
It all depends on the usage.
Maybe something like: "all-in-one, decent mics, low handling noise, max preferred size/weight, memory size/battery life demands, budget".


Edited to add: if I had to "triage" most non-tapir singers' expectations/requirements based on the queries I have received from singers, they would probably go in the following order:

- cost (probably under $300, under $200 preferred)
- clear, non-distorting and amazingly hifi sound quality
- no need for any extras (ie all-in-one)
- portability (smaller=better)
- decent battery life

I think most tapirs would agree that this is a slightly skewed and contradictory - and perhaps unrealistic! - set of priorities, but there we have it!

To elaborate:

Sunjan,  I absolutely agree with you, also that my monikers are, perhaps, a bit too general (for the record, I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, as well!)

HOWEVER (to fill you in on a little background), I can tell you from firsthand experience that many classical singers  don't really want to learn much about taping - even the most basic things , despite the fact that they of all people really *need* to know as much as possible so they can get the kind of recordings they hope for.  I can't tell you how many singers I know who will put up with a distorting, nearly-useless $50 cassette recorder from Walmart until it actually breaks before going out and getting a new machine, and who are then surprised that to get really good recordings it may cost more than that, or that they might want to learn a little bit about microphone types and what a preamp is to try and get the sounds they want to hear.   I have - LITERALLY - had people email me and say,  "Just tell me what recorder to buy - I don't want to learn anything about the technical side, I just want to push record and have it sound great".  Seriously.  I try to educatewhere I can but, for instance, if a student asks me about recorders and my goal is just to get them recording so they make better progress, THAT is a more pressing concern than turning them into informed tapirs when they have no interest at all in anything other than the cost and end result.  For me? Absolutely. Bring on all the info that's out there.  For them? Not so much :)  (There are OF COURSE exceptions as you know from the handful of singers who have wandered through this place, but we are exceptions that prove the rule, I'm sorry to say....)

Once upon a time, I was nearly as bad as that myself (not quite, but almost ;).  I diligently recorded my lessons with my MD and Sony 907, but I was always  disappointed with what I heard (that mic never seemed to record operatic voices well - I'm amazed it was recommended as widely and for as long as it was), and just did NOT want to have to deal with learning about something that seemed to be outside my artistic purview.  In my misinformed mind it was too much geek stuff; too many numbers. 

Of course, when I finally upgraded to a really GOOD recorder and microphone it was an epiphany:  I was finally able to hear myself CLEARLY and thus could no longer make excuses for the things which needed fixing (no, that nasty noise WASN'T due to a microphone distortion but was simply cuz I SUCKED on that note) and also learned that I sounded a lot better a lot of the time than I realised (time to stop beating myself up for imagined flaws and just go for it).  I was hooked both personally (wow, this taping thing is fun! I liiiikkkkeee this!) and professionally (my hire rate went up considerably as I really knuckled down and addressed the things I could, finally, hear CLEARLY).  Once I realised it was FUN,  I started reading in here to learn more and, well....  here we are :)

As I said in an earlier post in this thread, the "emotive" content of listening to yourself is always present (even for those of us who have taken the plunge and take taping a little more seriously!) and I think for some singers it almost becomes a kind  of  fingers-in-ears-la-la-la denial: if they never have to listen to a "clean" tape of themselves, they always leave a little bit of room for the imagination to fill in the blanks (or adjust for the distortions) and thus perceive themselves the way they HOPE they sound.  Technology is almost seen as a curse. 

However, this is starting to change as good quality recorders are becoming affordable and so readily available. Let's face it, even the "lowliest" of recorders that tapirs consider, deliver a quality of sound that 10 years ago would have astonished and been considered practically studio-quality. The idea that I can take an under $300 unit the size of a pack of cards into a practice room (or theater) and come away with recordings I can safely use on a demo disk still amazes me; add my DPA4060s, and I am blown away just about every time I plug up and hit record.

Ok, this is a long answer, but I just wanted to fill in some of the blanks about how and why I posed my groupings the way I did and am creating "blanket" answers instead of approaching it in a more technical way.  Thanks for your input; you're right.  But I was intentionally general and  "non technical" not for myself, but in anticipation of the kinds of questions I know I'll be asked.

/slight tangent

Thanks for all the input folks - much appreciated!  I'll read up on the DR at greater length. The handling noise issue may make it less attractive to singers who want to stealth from the house, but it sounds like it could be a good machine for recording lessons and coachings etc.  I'll see if I can find some acoustic samples somewhere (or if anybody has 'em, let me know!). But it's certainly another one for the list! :)








« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 10:25:48 AM by divamum »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 10:16:06 AM »
My personal list of quality recorders is (best first):-

    * Aaton Cantar (very expensive and, I think, limited to 48kHz)
    * NAGRA VI (6-track, 24/96, and superb)
    * SD 788 (8-track, gets hot and limited to 48kHz)
    * SD 744T (4-track, 2 mic. pre-amps, gets hot)
    * NAGRA LB (2-track, top quality, Editing and Firewire included for sending files back to base)
    * SD 722
    * SD 702T
    * SD 702
    * Fostex FR-2
    * Tascam HD-P2
    * Fostex FR-2LE



Personally - I have just bought the NAGRA VI, own the Fostex FR-2 and am considering replacing teh FR-2 with the NAGRA LB.

Price:-

UK (very rough) the NAGRA VI is half the price of the Cantar and the SD 788 is slightly more expensive than the NAGRA VI.

The NAGRA LB and SD 702(T) are around the same price and less than half the price of the NAGRA VI.

The Fostex FR-2 and Tascam are about the same (less than £1,000) and the Fostex FR-2LE is about £400 (one thirst two half the price of teh Tascam and FR-2).

Offline flintstone

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 12:32:20 PM »
There's no doubt that you can make a better recording with
$10,000 worth of audio gear than you can with $1000.  But
that doesn't mean that an inexpensive recorder won't meet
the needs of the original poster.  We're talking here about
giving feedback to performers, not making CD masters.

Divamum, do the performers need a recorder with speaker,
or are they willing to use headphones?

Flintstone


Offline John Willett

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2008, 01:48:28 PM »
But that doesn't mean that an inexpensive recorder won't meet the needs of the original poster. 

The original poster was just listing recorders he could recommend to users for recording classical music - mased in blocks of roughly equal price.

I answered that back at the beginning of the thread - I just posted my "good guys" list from the most expensive - £8,000 (ish) - down to the cheapest at under £400 (missing out the pocket machines).

If you want me to add those:-
  • Sony PCM-D50
  • Olympus LS-10
  • Edirol R-09HR

Offline divamum

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2008, 04:36:58 PM »
Quote
The original poster was just listing recorders he could recommend to users for recording classical music - massed in blocks of roughly equal price.

Thanks John, that's exactly right. And  not just  recording any classical music, but classical VOICE, ie operatic voices, which present some very particular recording problems, especially women's voices in high register. Even pro engineers can find it challenging to produce both technically good and *flattering* recordings of the operatic voice - the dynamic range on them is huge, so  solutions for "all very quiet" or "all very loud" simply don't work, and some mic/pre combinations just don't make individual voices sound pretty (kind of like being photogenic or not, and the photographer's lighting choices making a difference).


Divamum, do the performers need a recorder with speaker,
or are they willing to use headphones?

Flintstone


Flintstone, I think that's WAY down the list of requirements for most, although I can't speak for everybody - that's just my impression (and my own taste.   I personally hate listening to ANY recordings on teeny-tiny-speakers like units usually provide but, of course, that is only my personal opinion.)  I guess I reckon that most people are used to iPods so headphones aren't such a big deal anymore, so even the Luddites have become used to the idea.  Ease of uploading to a computer is probably more important than a speaker (I admit I was surprised when the R09HR touted that as one of the "big" improvements - do people really use it that much, and can tiny speakers actually deliver more than decent cans?)

In any case, I appreciate and welcome the continued discussion - this is great stuff!

 

« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 04:50:59 PM by divamum »
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Offline flintstone

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2008, 05:18:40 PM »
"...can tiny speakers actually deliver more than decent cans?"

No, but they do allow you to make a quick check of the recording,
and they're useful when two people want to hear something. 

Among the recorders on the market today, the M-Audio Microtrack II,
the Tascam DR-1, Sony PCM-D50 and Zoom H2 lack an internal speaker.

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2008, 12:09:03 AM »
If we're talking about playback / monitoring of recordings, I'll throw in my personal obsession here, and that is that I suspect many of the more-than-stereo recorders lack the ability to properly pan and balance monitoring when recording and/or when playing back to check the results on location - that for me is the only hitch with the R-44.  I'd be interested to hear John Willet's observations on that (or anyone!).

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2008, 12:14:07 AM »
Quote
some mic/pre combinations just don't make individual voices sound pretty
Speaking as one who used to do a steady business recording classical singers' demos around London, I suspect that the chief factor is the mic, its placement, and the acoustic of the space used.  Preamp and recorder characteristics, if you're using something neutral rather than fashionably coloured, should come a distinct second to those considerations.  (I always used a Sennheiser MKH series MS pair with MS-MZA preamp which I think John Willet had something to do with in a former life??!)

Offline divamum

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2008, 12:08:22 PM »
Quote
some mic/pre combinations just don't make individual voices sound pretty
Speaking as one who used to do a steady business recording classical singers' demos around London, I suspect that the chief factor is the mic, its placement, and the acoustic of the space used.  Preamp and recorder characteristics, if you're using something neutral rather than fashionably coloured, should come a distinct second to those considerations.  (I always used a Sennheiser MKH series MS pair with MS-MZA preamp which I think John Willet had something to do with in a former life??!)

Hmm... I wonder if I know you! (I'm a singer who was educated and trained in the UK... :)

I would agree that the factors you describe ARE the main ones  I have noticed affecting sound quality, but not the only ones.

FWIW, I did actually note a significant difference in sound qualit/colour when I used my CMC8 mics straight into my iRiver 120 vs when I ran them into a Core Sounds 2496 and then went optical into the iRiver - definitely a slightly "colder" sound when running optical. Not sure I can explain that in any technical terms, but to my ears there was a noticeable difference with the preamp being the only difference in gear. 

I now run DPA 4060s+BB into an Edirol; at some point when the piggy bank allows I'd like to upgrade the DPA battery box to an MM6K, but for now, it's a good combo. It may be slightly MORE flattering than "reality" with that little sparkle those mics add, but having listened to people in person and on the recordings, I think it gives a pretty true impression of balance, vocal amplitude and vocal colour, which is what I for the most part need. Yes, a little bit more backgrouund noise than ideal since the Edirol pre isn't necessarily the best, but since most of my recording is live performances rather than studio, I can live with it :)

Ok, I'm now hijacking my own thread!  But.. it's nice to get to "talk" to some folks familiar with the kinds of challenges I'm talking about, and also will probably know what i mean about classical singers being twitchy about recordings (and reluctant to learn!) :)
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2008, 06:44:15 AM »
I totally disagree with a lot of divamum's ranking of low priced recorders. In my opinion, the H2 is not good and neither is the H4, which he says is better than good (I have one and hate it). Both can distort easily in high sound pressure situations and the H4 is very inconvenient to use. I'd hate to have to stealth with it. The iHP-120, despite being ultra budget in cost is capable of making excellent recordings if you know how to use it and have a good mic. Plus it is very easy to use, unlike the H4. With a Church Audio ST-9100 and a good mic the recordings are pretty much indistinguishable from the ones I make with a FR2-LE, and many people use it with just mic in and report excellent results (arni99 for one). Also I would add the Sony MZ-RH1 Hi-MD as a great under $500 recorder, especially if you need to stealth or want to go mic in instead using a preamp line in.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 06:52:56 AM by fmaderjr »
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2008, 07:27:08 AM »
Quote
In my opinion, the H2 is not good
Quote
Good
H2 (for those on a tight budget, or who just need a quickie device to tape lessons and rehearsals - better than an MD, not as good as the other digital recorders)
Seems a fair summary to me.  It seems to be very popular for just that among classical musicians for price/performance and ease of use.  At a sensible distance it's unlikely to be overloaded by unamplified music (even sopranos I would have thought, though I haven't tried).

Offline Kevin T

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Re: "ranking" portable recorders
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 10:53:44 AM »
For a list like this the H2 may not be Mid level or "good" But used within its limited capability with internals or line in It has somehow produced some VERY Good recordings. I think it provides the highest fidelity captue potential (per dollar) of any unit available. YMMV

 

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