Author Topic: TL users.. Is horizontal XY ok? (Read 6727 times)

timP · « **on:** July 13, 2004, 12:23:34 PM »

or should I look to get a vert bar w/ LD mod?

I have a sabra-som T bar that I can run vertically w/ my shockmounts mounting my mic horizontal..
is this ok?

thanks
Tim

nic · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:31:38 PM »

for less than the cost of the vert bar and extender kit, you can get 2 clamps that will enable you ANY possible config you would ever want...

blu666z · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:31:52 PM »

Seems like it would be ok but don't take my word for it.

-Kevin

timP · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:43:19 PM »

I have a light stand type mic stand that allows me to mount 1 shock mount up top and I can clamp the other down lower, if I want to run vert xy....
wondering if there is a sonic difference between vertbodies and horizontal bodies.................

Brian · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:43:39 PM »

i've run horizontal XY many times and have never noticed a difference between it and vertical. however it's been a while since i've gone vertical casue i'm too lazy to setup the clamp

there's been threads on this topic before but i can't remember the conclusions, although i think it doesn't matter. i'll do some experimenting with some upcoming shows and report back.....

timP · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:50:29 PM »

I think I'm going to try 1 set vert. 1 hori. this weds to see.......................

Swampy · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:52:30 PM »

I dont see why it would matter at all. If the caps are round, then the body should be able to be in any position, as long as the caps are positioned correctly...

Brian · « **Reply #7 on:** July 13, 2004, 12:55:26 PM »

while that may seem to be true, alex, the housing that the caps are in, in all LD's, are specifically designed that way to shape the sound they recieve. that's why there are all different kinds of shapes of LD's. rotating the mic on axis may "mess" with how the housing captures the sound to the capsule.

but like i said before i don't think it makes that much difference, if any at all....

Swampy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:05:54 PM »

Right, so having upsidedown would be messing with is just as much as horizontal

nic · « **Reply #9 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:13:21 PM »

Quote from: Alex Herd on July 13, 2004, 01:05:54 PM

Right, so having upsidedown would be messing with is just as much as horizontal

no, because even upside down, the mic is still vertical.
alot of the problems that some people seem to have with horizontal LDs(in theory) is what the mic receives off-axis.
fyi, Schoeps recomends that their "v" series be run vertical, as that is how the housing was designed

Swampy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:18:06 PM »

Brian · « **Reply #11 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:19:47 PM »

Quote from: luvean on July 13, 2004, 01:13:21 PM

Quote from: Alex Herd on July 13, 2004, 01:05:54 PM
Right, so having upsidedown would be messing with is just as much as horizontal

no, because even upside down, the mic is still vertical.
alot of the problems that some people seem to have with horizontal LDs(in theory) is what the mic receives off-axis.
fyi, Schoeps recomends that their "v" series be run vertical, as that is how the housing was designed

yep! exactly right luvean...this sounds like a good question to take over to the ADK forum. hell it might have been already asked by someone and addressed by JP Gerard, who BTW doesn't come around here too much anymore cause he wants us ADK users to go over to the adk board.

Craig T · « **Reply #12 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:19:52 PM »

Someone once responded to a TL thread saying they don't sound as good x/y horizontal compared to vertical. Something to do with phase issues. (I'll try to find the post) Seems like an easy test would be to take a mic in front of your home playback system and rotate it and listen for any change - off and on-axis with the diaphragm.

Brian · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:21:36 PM »

i'm doing a show tomorrow night. i'll record the first band horizontal and then my band vertical and see if there is a difference. hopefully the lazy bug won't hit me the next day and i'll get some comparison mp3's up!

Craig T · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:25:08 PM »

Quote from: Craig T on July 13, 2004, 01:19:52 PM

Someone once responded to a TL thread saying they don't sound as good x/y horizontal compared to vertical. Something to do with phase issues. (I'll try to find the post) Seems like an easy test would be to take a mic in front of your home playback system and rotate it and listen for any change - off and on-axis with the diaphragm.

found it. was over at the Oade forum.
http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/Forum/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=1553&mesg_id=1678&page=

#1678, "RE: Studio Projects Mic Test"
In response to In response to 33

Actually Craig is correct in his assessment, it's a phase problem. Most listeners hear it as harshness, not distortion. The same phase characteristic gives them an increased sense of spaciousness. Try adding a phase shift to the LSD2 file and you will find it 'spreads' the soundstage but this decreases focus which causes a loss of detail and depth. Spacing a stereo pair will increase soundstage size due to the phase difference between channels. They'll take on a similar character in the top octave as well. If you've ever walked from one side to the other in front of a conventional PA you'll note the same harsh high end for the same reason. We find the ADK mics to sound best when used in X-Y with one on top of the other, never run them on their sides or spaced and you'll find the high end harshness will be minimized. This isn't an issue with symphonies or micing many instruments or vocals. Very few LD mics don't exhibit this problem, you have to pay the Neumann price if your ears are that good ! Give the TLM 170s a listen for a LD mic free from any audible artifacts yet delivering low level detail very few mics can equal.
- Jack

Brian · « **Reply #15 on:** July 13, 2004, 01:26:20 PM »

here's a great post by JP Gerard from the adkmic forum about configs with the TLs.

"The basic configs are AB, XY, MS, ORTF, NOS, OSS etc.

You can find them with diagrams and full expalation on the net but in broad strokes:

AB: typical spaced pair, there are no real guidelines... but the 3:1 rule is worth keeping in mind.

XY/Blumlein: coincident pair, 90° is a good start, placing the capsules on top of each other is a good idea for optimum phase coherence, I usually end up around 80° but some folks use up to 120° for a wide image when taping large formations. Use Fig-8s for Blumlein, 90° angle.

MS (Mr. Blumlein too!): a fig-8 and a (typically) directionnal mic going through a matrix that basically flips the phase of one of the fig-8 mic signal after multing and mixes it with the cardioid.The balance between the mics will determine the center "depth" or stereo "spread". Select the directivity of the M mic depending on how much "room" you need in the stereo image.

ORTF: variation on XY, 110° angle, "near coincident" since the capsules are typically 17cm apart.

NOS: like ORTF config but 90° angle, 30 cm apart.

OSS/Jecklin disc: a baffle around 1' between two omnis, approaching binaural performance."

blu666z · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2004, 04:35:04 PM »

I thought in MS both mics where set to Fig 8.

-Kevin

Brian · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2004, 04:37:27 PM »

mid - cardioid

side - figure of eight.

if both mics were fig of 8 the pattern would look like this " + " instead of this " X " thus not allowing for optimal stereo separation.

zowie · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2004, 05:29:12 PM »

Quote from: Craig T on July 13, 2004, 01:25:08 PM

Quote from: Craig T on July 13, 2004, 01:19:52 PM

This isn't an issue with symphonies or micing many instruments or vocals.

That part confuses me.

keepongoin · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2004, 05:35:34 PM »

i have set the TLs up horizonal and vertical XY and had good results, though I prefer the vertical, as it is more consistant (i fucked up one show with horizontal placement; it still is OK, but could have been better).

I think Junkbondking said this a while back: the TLs are very forgiving mics.

hzgone · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2004, 06:09:03 PM »

I have ran my TL's horizontal many times, but have yet to run them vertical. Most of my shows i think sound pretty good but after reading some of the posts on here i will have to run them vertical and see what happens. So far i think my best show has been running split omni's

keepongoin · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2004, 06:45:07 PM »

without a doubt, split omni and j-disk baffled omni are the best way to go, provided you are in a place where no one will be talking near your mics. Blumlein is also an option that seems to increase the "depth" of the recording.

hzgone · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2004, 06:55:31 PM »

i think i'm running split omni's tonight on stage at jacob fred

RedMountain · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:08:47 PM »

First off, I have to say- I LOVE THESE MIC'S! These are, without as doubt, the best sounding LD's I've ever heard (ok, a U-47 might edge these puppies out, but...)

I run 'em horizontal X-Y using a SHure A27M bar on top of a Manfrotto stand. Sounds great, either in Cardoid or Hyper-C. I am curious to try them in the Blumlein arrangement. I have heard that this gives a broader "depth of field" to the sound.

I don't hear any phase isseus with them set up horizontally, and in this arrangement I can actually keep the diaphragms closer to each other than in the vertical setup (when you consider the space taken up by the windscreens and shockmounts)

Anyway- just thought I'd squeeze my $.02 in

RedMan

FWIW: AKG 414TL's --->UA-5 (DigiMod) --->D10ProII ---> Shure FP22 Monitor ---> Sony MDR V600's ---> My ears ---> My heart & soul....

Craig T · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:12:38 PM »

Quote from: RedMountain on July 14, 2004, 03:08:47 PM

FWIW: AKG 414TL's --->UA-5 (DigiMod) --->D10ProII ---> Shure FP22 Monitor ---> Sony MDR V600's ---> My ears ---> My heart & soul....

wrong TL's... we're talking about the ADK A51TL's, not the AKG's. but hey, those AKG's are pretty decent, too.

RedMountain · « **Reply #25 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Craig T on July 14, 2004, 03:12:38 PM

Quote from: RedMountain on July 14, 2004, 03:08:47 PM
FWIW: AKG 414TL's --->UA-5 (DigiMod) --->D10ProII ---> Shure FP22 Monitor ---> Sony MDR V600's ---> My ears ---> My heart & soul....

wrong TL's... we're talking about the ADK A51TL's, not the AKG's. but hey, those AKG's are pretty decent, too.

My bad- not familiar with these. Enlighten me won't you all...

Craig T · « **Reply #26 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:21:14 PM »

http://www.adkmic.com/specs/TL.html

Brian · « **Reply #27 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:24:08 PM »

it's quite a popular LD mic these days especially for live concert taping. mostly because they are such a great sounding mic for sucha great price and are very versatile

tons of us here run them. I own a matched pair and have been really enjoying the tapes i've made!

adk is a great microphone company and i really hope they succeed further than they have and continue to come out with great and affordable products.

Tim · « **Reply #28 on:** July 14, 2004, 04:45:28 PM »

Robert Kwon has posted on this topic a few times. I don't run my ld's horizontally...

Author Topic: TL users.. Is horizontal XY ok? (Read 6727 times)

zowie