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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: lds490 on April 13, 2005, 06:19:16 PM
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How come tube amps are all rated around 25 watts per channel? I mean, my consumer-grade Yamaha receiver has 135 watts per channel.
When I was a kid, I kept frying my speakers because I ran out of headroom when I turned the volume up. The solution to my problem was getting a Carver power amp with 200 watts per channel. So, my experience is the more watts, the better.
I assume that tube amps are loud enough. So, how do they do it with such low power? I have a vague idea that the answer is related to speaker efficiency, which in turn is related to amps. Can anyone explain? So, does that mean that some speakers can't be used with tube amps, but work great with higher-wattage ss amps?
Sorry for asking dumb questions.
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No, those are good questions.
A tube amp can be designed to deliver 1 Watt max or 1,000 Watts max. The Vacuum Tube Logic Wotan, for example, delivers 1,250 Watts per channel. The problem is that that higher-powered tube amps are disproportionately expensive.
Unlike solid-state amps, tube amps require an output transforer (OPT) to interface with loudspeakers. The more power that transformer has to handle, the larger and more expensive it becomes. The quality of the OPT has a lot to do with the resultant sound, so typically you want the best trannie you can get your hands on. Some manufacturers wind their own transformers BY HAND, further increasing the cost (i.e. the Audio Note Ongaku costs about $90,000 and uses silver-wire hand-wound OPT's).
Unlike solid state amps, tube amps are high-voltage devices. The capacitors in the power supply operate at hundreds of volts (instead of tens of volts) meaning they pack a serious whallop. This is the main reason that tube amps sound more powerful than their rating--they have NO problem handling sharp transients. The dynamics of a solid-state amp can seem lackluster by comparison. A 100 Watt tube amp will sound much more powerful than a 100 Watt solid-state amp.
You're right about efficiency. Over the past 10 years there has been an increase in the number of flea-powered tube amps on the market. 300B, 2A3, and 45 single-ended triode amps deliver approximately 8, 3, and 1 Watt respectively. These absolutely have to be matched to a sensitive loudspeaker with a relatively high impedance (horns, for example). From what I gather, the goosebump factor with these systems is unmatched.
Finally, the main reason people like tube amps is because of their "special" characteristics. They sing in a way that few solid-state amps can match (harmonics, baby, harmonics!). Because of that, we simply don't mind having less power.
edit:
An anomaly among tube amps are the OTL's, the output-transformerless amplifiers. The early models were unrelaible and unstable, but apparently the currect designs are fine. Here's a link to a technical page at Atma-Sphere:
http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/otl.html
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Finally, the main reason people like tube amps is because of their "special" characteristics. They sing in a way that few solid-state amps can match (harmonics, baby, harmonics!). Because of that, we simply don't mind having less power.
Yes, and too much capacity (watts) reduces the even-order harmonic output.
Hence, a 150 watt tube amp may actually sound much less "sweet" than a 17 wpc tube amp.
Interesting story. A government contractor developed an extremely flat audio amp for telecommunications.
Perfect reproduction fron 10 Hz to 30 kHz. No phase distortion, THD nearly zero.
They were very pleased with their creation and anticipated a huge side benefit in commercial sales to audiophiles.
To cut to the chase, no reseller would buy it. It sounded too "flat", too "brittle", not bassy enough, lacking image, blah, blah, blah....
Coloration in sound is where it's at.
Everyone seems to want a "musical" amplifier.
BTW, transistors, and especially op-amps are faster than tubes.
The lack of a transformer helps this along.
The inter-electode capacitances, thermionic noise, and a host of other "bad" tube characteristics seem to be what makes them so sonically appealing.
IMHO, to simulate the sound, roll-off the top end, add a very, very small amount of pink noise, and add 2nd order harmonics to taste.
Also, do NOT confuse speaker efficiency and sensitivity.
These are two distinct charateristics.
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Frank M..........great info. +T
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Nothing can compare with aunthentic and pure tube sound though. Don't be fooled by wattage on stereo gear because the circuitry on alot of higher watt gear is highly ineficient. If you go to a car stereo store you can but a 2500 watt subwoofer amp, but it's only around 70% efficient so there is massive loss of wattage before it hits the speakers. Companies moved away from tube amps because it's cheaper to build a tubeless amp and there are no tubes to break so there should be less maintenance. A tube amp rated at significantly less wattage than an alternative unit may be just as loud and will definately sound better. I'm highly biased on this topic though because I'm in love with pure tube sound in all applications. IMHO you just can't beat those 70s albums recorded with entirely analog studio setups. Even listening to some older recordings, Grateful Dead from '77 comes to mind, you'll hear a warmth and richness to the sound that just isn't there anymore. The highly talented modern electronic music producers like Richard D. James use mostly analog instruments and initial recording gear to achieve that unbeatable sound. Go to your local Guitar Center and plug the same guitar into a tube amp and then a standard and see for yourself how different it sounds.
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How come tube amps are all rated around 25 watts per channel? I mean, my consumer-grade Yamaha receiver has 135 watts per channel.
When I was a kid, I kept frying my speakers because I ran out of headroom when I turned the volume up. The solution to my problem was getting a Carver power amp with 200 watts per channel. So, my experience is the more watts, the better.
Actually, the reason you blew your speakers is you turned your initial amp up so loud that it started clipping. To make it very simple, clipping is when the tops and bottoms get chopped off smooth analog waveforms. What you are left with looks like a smooth waveform with a square top. This is because your amplifier just cannot produce the amplitude you are asking of it... And it sounds bad, real bad. Not to mention it fries speakers faster than you can believe. I would guess 99% of all fried speaker drivers are due to amp clipping.
I assume that tube amps are loud enough. So, how do they do it with such low power? I have a vague idea that the answer is related to speaker efficiency, which in turn is related to amps. Can anyone explain? So, does that mean that some speakers can't be used with tube amps, but work great with higher-wattage ss amps?
More to the point of your original question, the interplay between watts and "efficiency" is but one part of the game. Efficiency is usually discussed in terms of how many decibels of sound are produced from a speaker at 1 meter with 1 watt of power. This gives us a reference point. So when people say "my speakers are 88db efficient" this means that they produce 88db 1W/m. If the next guy has "90db" speakers, his will produce more volume with a given watt. This is a rough guide, and all things being equal high efficiency is better than low as you spend less $$ in amplification to achieve the desired result.
As I said, this is but one part of the game, so on to the next part of your question (tube vs. ss and speakers). When thinking about a tube amp, you really need to think about impedence. Impedence is the resistance the speaker presents to the amplifier at a certain frequency (it changes radically when you sweep from low to high freqs). Low impedence, less resistance, will demand more current from an amplifier. High impedence demands less current, and all things being equal presents a more benign load on the amplifier. This is particularly problematic for tube amplifiers for a few reasons, but the big one is alluded to above--the transformer coupled output that a tube amp has is both a strong and a weak point of a tube design. These transformers are optimized for a certain impedence, and usually have multiple taps. Say 8 ohms and 4 ohms. If your speaker presented an ideally flat 8-ohm impedence (none do) the tube amp would sing at it's happiest. In reality, as I said, the impedence varies greatly with frequency. When matching speakers to a tubed amp, all things being equal, you really want the most benign impedence curve possible. One with huge dips and valleys will cause wildly differing frequency response when fed by a tubed amp. In contrast, most SS amps are NOT transformer-coupled, and can deliver whatever current the speaker is asking (to the limits of the design, power supply, etc). This is why speakers that present "difficult loads" (either very low impedence or wild swings) are often powered by solid state amplifiers.
HTH
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Take the following with a grain of salt, cause I am speaking with experience from guitar tube amps, which many of the same principles have applied- maybe someone can confirm this-
but it gets even more difficult than comparing watts for tube vs. ss - as far as guitar amps go, a 30W tube amp from one company has the potential to be louder, and way more powerful than a 100W tube amp from another manufacturer. I have a Red Bear 120W tube amp for my guitar, and a 30W Orange amp will kick the crap out of it volume wise...
This has always confused me too...
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great info in here....
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great info in here....
There are some ridiculously knowledgable people in this forum, and all over this site. I love it.
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Take the following with a grain of salt, cause I am speaking with experience from guitar tube amps, which many of the same principles have applied- maybe someone can confirm this-
but it gets even more difficult than comparing watts for tube vs. ss - as far as guitar amps go, a 30W tube amp from one company has the potential to be louder, and way more powerful than a 100W tube amp from another manufacturer. I have a Red Bear 120W tube amp for my guitar, and a 30W Orange amp will kick the crap out of it volume wise...
This has always confused me too...
Power ratings are always for a given distortion level. It's a swag, but the 30W rating may be for a low distortion level while the 100W figure may be for a high level. In a guitar amp, the distortion is such an important part of the sound that there's no accepted distortion level at which to rate it. With hi-fi amps, the power rating is for 1% THD or less.
(S.W.A.G - Scientific Wild-Ass Guess)
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Also, and I forgot to mention this... Rated power is often not with all channels driven, at all frequencies. Those "125W" home theatre amps can't push anywhere NEAR 125W in the real world because many are measured with only one channel driven, at one freq, and sometimes with only a pulse signal, not a constant! Most good hifi amps are rated much more conservatively.
And think about the "clipping" I mentioned. SS circuits clip in that very nasty, squared-off way; tubes clip by rounding the top of the waveform. Essentially, it just stops getting larger. Tube clipping is much softer and less bothersome to the ears. Thus, you might be running a 30W tube amp right up at 30W with a few clips here and there, but the 125W amp that can only push 50 "real" SS watts can't be run anwhere near 50W output as your ears will keep you away from your clipping. So maybe that 30W tube amp will get louder than the 125W SS amp after all.
FWIW, I have only 50wpc with my tubed setup, and it's way more powerful than I even need. Room is 12x37 (big long living room/kitchen combo).
Also, remember that it takes a doubling of watts to increase the sound by 3db. So if I wanted 6 more DB I'd need 200 tubed watts.
One thing that should be said--big tube power comes at a price. >100 watt tubed designs (often monoblocks) carry a great heat and weight penalty. I entertained the idea of moving to a pair of 200W tubed monos (the larger version of my amp) just because. My dealer talked me out of it as he said the monos would make my room uncomfortably warm--as in sweating like a mofo!!
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great info in here....
There are some ridiculously knowledgable people in this forum, and all over this site. I love it.
QFT
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so with speakers that clearly say 8 ohms on the back of them (from the factory), i should be plugged in to the amp at 8 ohms, right..? i have people telling me all the time to move them to the 4 ohm taps, bt i havent done it - what would be the advantage, when the speakers are recommended to be used at 8 ohms..?
i have said it before, but im saying it again now - the playback forum kicks a$$!!!!
great info in here....
There are some ridiculously knowledgable people in this forum, and all over this site. I love it.
QFT
qft - again.
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My old CJ tube amp had multiple taps. They recommended starting with the tap that most closely matched the speaker. Then try the others to see which sounded best.
So I don't think it's a fixed thing.
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Definitely not a fixed thing--try them all. Sometimes manufacturers rate their speakers as "8 ohms" and they really end up being anything but. And since impedence varies wildly with frequency, you may find you like the 4ohm tap better.
For my ProAcs, on my ARC, I use the 8 ohm tap. I tried the 4 ohm and it didn't sound as good (it was really a marked difference).
But each situation is different. It can't hurt to try.
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It can't hurt to try.
that is what i was looking for. +t
i was going to try plugging the cables in to 4ohm taps, but the back panel of my klipsch speakers says 8ohms, so i never have. but if i wont f*ck something up, i will give it a whirl sometime...
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You will not f*ck anything up.
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I had no idea... I'm going to mess with that next week. thanks
here's a 100 for ya ducati
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I don't think that anyone really hit sensitivity and efficiency for speakers.
FWIW, here's a few good links:
Sensitivity:
http://jsdsound.eds-tech.com/sensitivity.htm
http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/sensitivity.asp
Efficiency:
http://www.visi.com/~asm/Newsletters/2001/asm_apr_01.pdf#search='speaker%20efficiency'
http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/05_speakers.html
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Make sure you let us know what you think. It all depends upon the speaker/amp interaction!
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Make sure you let us know what you think. It all depends upon the speaker/amp interaction!
so just power down, pull the plugs, reconnect to the different set of taps, and power back up..?
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Yes--but just as a general suggestion, leave your tube amp powered off for awhile. A few mins should be sufficient. It is very hard on tube amps to turn off/on in quick succession. The worst case is a quick off/on (sometimes you will hear audible groaning!) but I try to play it safe there.
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well, i'll be d*mned... i think using the 4ohm taps improves the sound noticeably. the sound stage opened up a bit, and i have a bit more defined bass (i know that is what every audiophile says, but i swear, i hear it)... the dobros sound much more real, too [listening to david johansen and the harry smiths (2-ch sacd)]...
i am very glad i tried that - thanks again, ducati, for holding my hand, and reassuring me :P
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You're welcome!! Glad you liked it. Now listen like this for a few weeks and switch back. I'll be interested to hear what you heard "going back." It should vindicate the decision on which is the better tap :)
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well, i'll be d*mned... i think using the 4ohm taps improves the sound noticeably. the sound stage opened up a bit, and i have a bit more defined bass (i know that is what every audiophile says, but i swear, i hear it)... the dobros sound much more real, too [listening to david johansen and the harry smiths (2-ch sacd)]...
i am very glad i tried that - thanks again, ducati, for holding my hand, and reassuring me :P
Wait, so you just hooked up 8ohm Klipsch to the 4ohm outputs on the amp, and that's not going to hurt the amp? I'm confused... ???
anyways, what klipsch are you running, macdaddy?
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No, it won't hurt anything. Each speaker is different, and each amp/speaker combo will be "optimized" as well as possible on one of the existing taps. Lots of ratings "8 ohm, 8ohm compatible" etc are just general guidelines. Curves vary widely in practice... Here's the curve from my now-departed B&W N805's (courtesy of Stereophile):
(http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/805fig1.jpg)
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damn, I guess I'll have to try it then. +t
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BTW--in that Stereophile diagram, the black line is impedence.
I liked that speaker on the 8 ohm tap best, as you can see, it doesn't drop below 8 very often.
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just switched from the 8ohm to the 4ohm taps... sound is very different, noticeable change immediatley... not sure which I like more but for the time being the new 4ohm setup has me intrugued. the bass and low mids seem cleaner and the bass seems tighter and lower..... the upper mids seem cleaner as well...
I'll have to do some more listening though
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hmmmm..... imaging seems tighter and the soundstage seems much deeper and
WIDER... instruments are reaching well outside my speakers, much further than usual.
I'm going to switch back to the 8ohm taps in a bit and see what I think of the differences but the 4ohm taps seems to have really brought my system to life...
edit: soundstage is a touch wider, not as dramatic as I originally thought... overall though the soundstage seems deeper, the imaging tighter, and the overall tonal characteristics seem cleaner with deeper bass when I'm on the 4ohm taps as oppossed to the (recommended) 8ohm taps...
I still need to do more listening but I've got to thank DUCATI for tipping me off to this tweak... much thanks :)
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hmmmm..... imaging seems tighter and the soundstage seems much deeper and WIDER... instruments are reaching well outside my speakers, much further than usual.
I'm going to switch back to the 8ohm taps in a bit and see what I think of the differences but the 4ohm taps seems to have really brought my system to life...
edit: soundstage is a touch wider, not as dramatic as I originally thought... overall though the soundstage seems deeper, the imaging tighter, and the overall tonal characteristics seem cleaner with deeper bass when I'm on the 4ohm taps as oppossed to the (recommended) 8ohm taps...
I still need to do more listening but I've got to thank DUCATI for tipping me off to this tweak... much thanks :)
yup. +t ducati...
tim - wasnt the initial listen a dramatic change..? i mean, i noticed a difference immediately, kind of like adding the furutech... subtle, but certainl noticeable...
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very dramatic change... I wouldn't even call it subtle with my speakers....
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very dramatic change... I wouldn't even call it subtle with my speakers....
maybe you are predisposed to hyperbole a bit more than me ;)
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You're welcome fellas. Just remember that 4 ohm isn't always the best tap. On my ProAc/ARC combo, 8 is better. The general point later post searchers should take is you should try 4 and 8 as one WILL sound better!
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It boggles my mind that its safe for the amp to move 8ohm speakers to the 4ohm posts... but I trust yah, and going to give it a shot!
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It boggles my mind that its safe for the amp to move 8ohm speakers to the 4ohm posts... but I trust yah, and going to give it a shot!
Nominal 8 Ohm speakers can dip to 2 ohms at some frequencies, not to fret (usually)
Fuses are good, don't let anyone tell you that they can hear them in the speaker circuit.
It is a rumor began by amplifier repair personnel ;D
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bumping this thread
Since I originally posted in this thread I have moved, and thus had to setup my stereo, twice.
I just got into the latest place on Friday and have been listening to tunes all weekend. For the heck of it I thought I'd switch from the 8ohm taps that I had been using in my last place to the 4ohms and... what do you know, my impressions of the changed sound line up pretty close to what I posted 2.5 years ago on this topic. I A/B'd and then went and found my original post.
Just thought this was an interesting tweak that deserved a bump for some of the newer folks here...
just switched from the 8ohm to the 4ohm taps... sound is very different, noticeable change immediatley... not sure which I like more but for the time being the new 4ohm setup has me intrugued. the bass and low mids seem cleaner and the bass seems tighter and lower..... the upper mids seem cleaner as well...
I'll have to do some more listening though
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Very interesting stuff. Does anyone have information on how the efficiency of a speaker relates to it's accuracy? I have a pair of Magnepans, they are know as an inefficient speaker, but I also know they are supposed to be very accurate. I'd think it simply becomes a matter of physics. Since the Driver on the Magnepans is so lightweight (basically a thin sheet of mylar or something) and moves so little because of it large relative size how does that impact it's accuracy when compared to a cone type driver that has the mass of a voice coil and the additional weight of the cone. You guys seem to really know your stuff +t.
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Interesting read, not that much of it will stick!
+T's all around.
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Speaker efficiency is a measurement of how well a speaker transforms electricity into sound waves.
1 watt is sent to the speaker and the output volume is measured from 1 meter away.
Let me give an example:
Say you have a speaker with an efficiency of 81dB and you also have a speaker with an efficiency of 90dB. The 81dB speaker requires 3 times as much power to reach the same volume as the 90dB speaker because every 3dB increase in output is a doubling in wattage (and volume). If the 90dB speaker was driven with 100watts and achieved a 90dB output the 81dB would require 300watts to achieve the same 90dB of volume (theoretically).
More efficient speaker = more LOUD per watt
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If you're curious about what SPL your system SHOULD be achieving go to this site:
http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
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Just remember that 4 ohm isn't always the best tap.
This turned out to be the case with my B+W 802s and VSA VR 4s using the 4 ohm tap on my Mastersound Due Venti Both pairs of speakers sounded rather anemic and lacked focus/depth when compared to using the 8ohm tap.
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Just remember that 4 ohm isn't always the best tap.
This turned out to be the case with my B+W 802s and VSA VR 4s using the 4 ohm tap on my Mastersound Due Venti Both pairs of speakers sounded rather anemic and lacked focus/depth when compared to using the 8ohm tap.
hmmmm I wonder if this others with B&W have had success like you and I have
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bumping this thread
Since I originally posted in this thread I have moved, and thus had to setup my stereo, twice.
I just got into the latest place on Friday and have been listening to tunes all weekend. For the heck of it I thought I'd switch from the 8ohm taps that I had been using in my last place to the 4ohms and... what do you know, my impressions of the changed sound line up pretty close to what I posted 2.5 years ago on this topic. I A/B'd and then went and found my original post.
Just thought this was an interesting tweak that deserved a bump for some of the newer folks here...
just switched from the 8ohm to the 4ohm taps... sound is very different, noticeable change immediatley... not sure which I like more but for the time being the new 4ohm setup has me intrugued. the bass and low mids seem cleaner and the bass seems tighter and lower..... the upper mids seem cleaner as well...
I'll have to do some more listening though
man, time flies (but it seems like bush has been in office forever)...
anyway, as you can read if you go back, 4ohm worked for me, too. i trusted my ears, and liked what i heard with the 4ohm tap, even though the klipsch say 8ohm on the back :P i assume i am not hurting the speakers by using 4ohm instead of 8...
but i guess the tweak is case specific - like in ducati's and teddy's cases, hooking into the 4ohm tap didnt help sonically. i wonder why that is..?
totally off topic, but have i told you how well that cheap, stock t-amp feeds my klipsch speakers..? it is astonishing (i was curious and bought one for $20 years ago)...
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I just tried the 4 ohm on my bryston, and with that amp(3b), the B+Ws sounded much, much better(than the 8ohm where I normally have it hooked up with that particular amp--the bryston and b+Ws are always paired). The VSAs still sounded Anemic and source localization was still lacking with the 4ohm on the bryston.
bumping this thread
Since I originally posted in this thread I have moved, and thus had to setup my stereo, twice.
I just got into the latest place on Friday and have been listening to tunes all weekend. For the heck of it I thought I'd switch from the 8ohm taps that I had been using in my last place to the 4ohms and... what do you know, my impressions of the changed sound line up pretty close to what I posted 2.5 years ago on this topic. I A/B'd and then went and found my original post.
Just thought this was an interesting tweak that deserved a bump for some of the newer folks here...
just switched from the 8ohm to the 4ohm taps... sound is very different, noticeable change immediatley... not sure which I like more but for the time being the new 4ohm setup has me intrugued. the bass and low mids seem cleaner and the bass seems tighter and lower..... the upper mids seem cleaner as well...
I'll have to do some more listening though
man, time flies (but it seems like bush has been in office forever)...
anyway, as you can read if you go back, 4ohm worked for me, too. i trusted my ears, and liked what i heard with the 4ohm tap, even though the klipsch say 8ohm on the back :P i assume i am not hurting the speakers by using 4ohm instead of 8...
but i guess the tweak is case specific - like in ducati's and teddy's cases, hooking into the 4ohm tap didnt help sonically. i wonder why that is..?
totally off topic, but have i told you how well that cheap, stock t-amp feeds my klipsch speakers..? it is astonishing (i was curious and bought one for $20 years ago)...
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I just tried the 4 ohm on my bryston, and with that amp(3b), the B+Ws sounded much, much better(than the 8ohm where I normally have it hooked up with that particular amp--the bryston and b+Ws are always paired). The VSAs still sounded Anemic and source localization was still lacking with the 4ohm on the bryston.
so it truly is dependent on the speaker, an maybe speaker + amp combo..?
something to try though, 'cos otherwise you will never know...
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It absolutely is dependent on the speaker/amp. Not an absolute by any means. I am glad I was made aware of it though. I wouldve never thought to otherwise..
I just tried the 4 ohm on my bryston, and with that amp(3b), the B+Ws sounded much, much better(than the 8ohm where I normally have it hooked up with that particular amp--the bryston and b+Ws are always paired). The VSAs still sounded Anemic and source localization was still lacking with the 4ohm on the bryston.
so it truly is dependent on the speaker, an maybe speaker + amp combo..?
something to try though, 'cos otherwise you will never know...