Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Running more than 2 mics  (Read 14382 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2023, 06:22:54 PM »
Quote
I never mix two near-coincident pairs.

I think this is where tapers frequently get into trouble trying to mix separate microphone pairs together.

The underlying issue is that the signals from any microphones being summed together into the same channel need to either be fully phase correlated (usually by being coincident with each other) or different enough from each other that any undesirable cancellations are minimal and do not pose an audible problem.  How to arrange things to achieve that is the key.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Top Hat

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2023, 10:49:28 PM »
Quote
I never mix two near-coincident pairs.

I think this is where tapers frequently get into trouble trying to mix separate microphone pairs together.

The underlying issue is that the signals from any microphones being summed together into the same channel need to either be fully phase correlated (usually by being coincident with each other) or different enough from each other that any undesirable cancellations are minimal and do not pose an audible problem.  How to arrange things to achieve that is the key.

I should have been more specific about my inquiry. Specifically, recording sound coming from a PA. This is my logic in this terms and agree with respondent, NEVER mix two coincident pairs, it just doesnt make any sense and physics is not on your side. However I do agree with recording a natural sound ..like from an orchestra. But, placement must be taken into account where timing is key. This could take hours or days to place correctly. As far as taper recordings go most tapers are set up in 15-20 minutes tops.


Online aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3884
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2023, 11:12:54 AM »
Not to ruffle any feathers, but a thread that starts with "Controversial statement. Discuss." is pretty much just trolling. Otherwise, a poster would say something like, "Controversial statement. I feel this way about it and here's why." Provocation by design.

That being said, I think that many of the multi-mic taper-type recordings that I have heard don't sound all that great and often not as good as well-done stereo recordings. I figure this is due to the added time/effort/skill that goes into them, which not everyone possesses in equal measure.

For myself, I rarely want to carry the extra stuff and I am usually pretty happy with what I get anyway...

Offline Top Hat

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2023, 11:36:11 AM »
Not to ruffle any feathers, but a thread that starts with "Controversial statement. Discuss." is pretty much just trolling. Otherwise, a poster would say something like, "Controversial statement. I feel this way about it and here's why." Provocation by design.

That being said, I think that many of the multi-mic taper-type recordings that I have heard don't sound all that great and often not as good as well-done stereo recordings. I figure this is due to the added time/effort/skill that goes into them, which not everyone possesses in equal measure.

For myself, I rarely want to carry the extra stuff and I am usually pretty happy with what I get anyway...
I agree, I could have worded this topic better. But, the intention wasn't to troll but to educate...myself first maybe others. The outcome? Maybe to save a bit of energy, time and space first, and second to make best use of what you have (equiptment, knowledge) without muddying the water (sound).
 

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2023, 11:41:48 AM »
Somewhat confrontational, but I take it as a good opportunity to explain why.  And agreed that many multi-microphone recordings are a complete mess!  It's a tricky road.  Two channels is a safer bet in most cases.  Definitely best to master that first and really understand whats going on.  If one want's to go further, that's cool but tread carefully, listen closely and critically, and question your own assumptions.

I should have been more specific about my inquiry. Specifically, recording sound coming from a PA. This is my logic in this terms and agree with respondent, NEVER mix two coincident pairs, it just doesnt make any sense and physics is not on your side. However I do agree with recording a natural sound ..like from an orchestra. But, placement must be taken into account where timing is key. This could take hours or days to place correctly. As far as taper recordings go most tapers are set up in 15-20 minutes tops.

I think the important differentiation is between acoustic theory and practicality, between science and applied science.  Can near-spaced pairs be mixed together successfully - yes.  But it is tricky and there is not much room for error in positioning to have it work right, and tapers don't have the luxury of setting up, listening carefully, adjusting the setup based on that, listening again, readjusting, etc.. so the likelihood of it working well simply by chance is slim and the likelihood of it not working well is high.

Not mixing near-spaced pairs is a good practical guideline, not because it can't ever work, but because the odds are against it.  Recording using just two microphones is a much  safer bet.  And so is the combination of a wide spaced omni pair with a coincident center pair (which can actually be even safer, more on that in a following post).

Of course small, lightweight, efficient and quick are all important practical goals for tapers. Fully agree on that.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 11:47:49 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2023, 11:48:08 AM »
Quote
I never mix two near-coincident pairs.
The underlying issue is that the signals from any microphones being summed together into the same channel need to either be fully phase correlated (usually by being coincident with each other) or different enough from each other that any undesirable cancellations are minimal and do not pose an audible problem.  How to arrange things to achieve that is the key.

^This statement posted earlier is rooted in this kind of real world practicality, based on how tapers operate.

In contrast to that is what actually can be achieved within the realm of acoustic theory, but is not practical for tapers because it cannot be done reliably under the constraints in which tapers are operating.  Carefully arranging and combining sources that are not fully phase-correlated in such a way that the cancellation and reinforcement works to advantage more than causes problems is possible. This falls in the realm of antenna theory, and specifically "beam-forming". Think phased-array sonar and radar systems.  There are more complex multi-element microphones that truly harness phased-array beam-forming techniques that require careful computer modelling and testing during development to get them to work right, followed by being able to producing them within the tolerances required for proper operation.  This is difficult, it gets messy quick.  Tony Faulkner's "Phased Array" four microphone configuration Voltronic mentioned can be argued to be a very rudimentary form of something in this category.. arrived at empirically via the luxury of setting up, listening carefully, adjusting the setup based on that, listening again, readjusting, etc.  Copying exactly that setup and using it in a different recording environment might work for tapers.  But trying to do something similar but not exactly the same without the luxury of going back and forth between carefully listening and adjusting things until getting it to work with minimal problems is asking for trouble. 

This is why a few of the more important aspects of any multi-microphone technique that might be deemed suitable for taper use is sufficient robustness and tolerance for variations in setup.  Mixing two near-spaced pairs scores poorly by this metric, in the same way as does mixing a bunch of mics without carefully managing what's going on between them.  In contrast. mixing spaced omnis with a coincident center pair scores very highly, which is why its an easy one to recommend.  It is a configuration that is even more robust and tolerant of variances in setup than a two channel near-spaced pair used on its own, where getting the angle and spacing right between the pair is more important.

I don't think recording PA-amplified performances verses non-amplified sources such as an orchestra are significantly different in terms of how stereo microphone setups work, but I do think the acoustic situations are dramatically different.  The same aspects apply, but the different acoustic situation calls for different solutions.  The biggest difference is how a PA is carefully designed to project direct sound toward audience in a highly preferential way, shifting the critical radius of reverberation much farther out into room.  An orchestra or other acoustic performance is much more omnidirectional and "illuminates" the room with sound very differently.  Because of this, some taper solutions which work well for recording PA-amplified stuff seem ridiculous and strange in the classical recording world.

And likewise, some classical techniques are less appropriate for use by tapers.  Mentioned previously in the thread was the relatively simple 4 microphone classical recording technique of a pair of spaced omnis flanking a near-spaced ORTF pair.  Yes that can work for tapers.  And it is attractive partly because it would seem to simply add the omnis to the "known-good" near-spaced stereo pair, which on its own is generally preferred by most tapers over a coincident pair. But without listening to get the spacing just right, a much safer bet is using a coincident pair in the center instead of a near-spaced pair.  Once things start getting combined, you need to think about the entire system working as a whole, more than "starting with this and adding a bit of that".  I'd also argue that the simple but specific combination of a coincident center pair and wide spaced pair provides advantages in terms of psychoacoustics.  It's both safe and works well.  Adding more mics beyond that gets trickier.   
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 12:18:23 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2023, 12:21:49 PM »
If you need the most compact, lightweight setup, record using two microphones.  It is all that's really needed and the right answer for most tapers.

If you want to use more mics in the stereo array, try a coincident pair between a wide-spaced pair.  It can offer advantages and is a safe bet, much more so than trying to add to a near-spaced stereo configuration.

If you want to use more microphones than that, ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by doing so, tread carefully, listen carefully, question what you've already made your mind up about in regards to two channel recording, keep an open mind about whether what you hear is actually better or not, and we can geek out about it 'till the cows come home on this cool recording forum.

If confused about all this stuff and just want to keep it simple, stick with two channels, its probably the right answer.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2023, 04:40:58 PM »
I'm going to jump to Gutbucket's defense here, goodcooker. Gut is doing exactly the opposite of what you are saying. He isn't giving one way; He's giving multiple ways like he usually does, and he has developed some very experimental arrays outside the norm which it would seem you would be all over.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline morst

  • I think I found an error on the internet; #UnionStrong
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5978
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2023, 07:47:37 PM »
Anyone else remember the golden rule of K.I.S.S.??


KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!


 :iamwithstupid:


Lol, but seriously, I have my own opinions and come to think of it, I would not be inclined to mix similar rigs together.
https://toad.social/@morst spoutible.com/morst post.news/@acffhmorst

Offline daspyknows

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 9683
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't ask, don't tell, don't get get caught
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2023, 12:36:10 AM »
I only run 2 almost all the time.  Since I only run  >:D it is hard on the melon to run 2 sets of Schoeps, but I have done it.  If its open taping or taping for the band, go for it.  More sources and options may result in something better and its more fun to play with more gear.

Offline noahbickart

  • phishrabbi
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
  • Gender: Male
  • So now I wander over grounds of light...
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2023, 08:17:34 PM »
Don't listen to Gutbucket's overly pedantic ramble about how this should work or that shouldn't work. No offense to you, Gutbucket, but you go off on some seriously long diatribes about how things are supposed to work and it's tiresome reading sometimes.

I'm confused. Can you quote what you mean by "Gutbucket's overly pedantic ramble"?

He posts a lot, and some of his posts are lengthy. I'll grant you that. However, they're always well thought through, based on the scientific method, and well explained- even for people without advanced training in Audio or Science.

Nobody is forcing you to read what he says.

But pick your favorite band and listen to the combination of near-coincident cardioid and hypercardioid pairs (what most people do), and then a coincident middle pair flanked by omnis (Gutbucket's basic premise).

I think the reason people post these mixes is because it's easy to do on the new multitrack recorders, not because it sounds better.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Online vanark

  • TDS
  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 8526
  • If you ain't right, you better get right!
    • The Mudboy Grotto - North Mississippi Allstar fan site
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2023, 07:51:50 AM »
I think the OP has it right. You can make a very good recording with a single pair of mics. Adding more mics does not necessarily make it a better recording.

And, yes, there are certain posts that would make a newbie run away from the hobby perhaps thinking they will never be able to figure out how to get a good recording. I'd rather keep it simple and grab a board patch in addition to the mics when I can. Find the best *feasible* spot in the room and press record. Tweak the recording in post and get it circulating so others can enjoy it.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 04:49:24 PM by vanark »
If you have a problem relating to the Live Music Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/etree) please send an e-mail to us admins at LMA(AT)archive(DOT)org or post in the LMA thread here and we'll get on it.

Link to LMA Recordings

Link to Team Dirty South Recordings on the LMA

Mics: Microtech Gefell M21 (with Nbob actives) | Church Audio CA-11 (cards) (with CA UBB)
Pres: babynbox
Recorders: Tascam DR-60D | Tascam DR-40 | Sony PCM-A10 | Edirol R-4

Offline voltronic

  • Trade Count: (40)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4117
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2023, 03:58:51 PM »
Let's simplify this discussion:

1. If you have methods that work for you, great!
2. Others may have very different methods that work for them. Also great!
3. There may be a different way to do what you're doing better, if you are willing to open your mind and learn. Or, your way of doing something may be better than someone else's way if they are open to learning from you.
4. One method might be great for one situation and terrible in another. You can't apply the same thing to every situation.
5. Science and proven facts through research are not pedantry. This should not be controversial.
6. If you are not always trying to improve and refine what you do, you are limiting yourself. If you're not always learning, you're not growing in your craft or as a person.

I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

Acoustic Recording Techniques
Team Classical
Team Line Audio
Team DPA

Offline Top Hat

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2023, 12:01:34 AM »
Let's simplify this discussion:

1. If you have methods that work for you, great!
2. Others may have very different methods that work for them. Also great!
3. There may be a different way to do what you're doing better, if you are willing to open your mind and learn. Or, your way of doing something may be better than someone else's way if they are open to learning from you.
4. One method might be great for one situation and terrible in another. You can't apply the same thing to every situation.
5. Science and proven facts through research are not pedantry. This should not be controversial.
6. If you are not always trying to improve and refine what you do, you are limiting yourself. If you're not always learning, you're not growing in your craft or as a person.

1. yep, and most times 9.9/10 it is the simplest method that is far more effective.
2. I get that...and then again when I see some of these arrays, I dont, but I accept it.
3. Always open to critic, and mentoring is MUCH needed in taping...We're getting f'n old. I would like to see more ladies and younger folks taping to be honest!!
4. Band contractual and venue constraints..yeah i get that. But, gear is basically the same. If you know the venue, that takes a ton of weight off in my experience.
5. I do not make the rules. However, the only thing that refutes Physics is better Physics. So that being said, Physics tells us that the time it takes sound to travel from Point A to Point B should be as equal as possible creating a nice even sine wave in each channel to work in unison. Adding more factors "mics" creates problems with the reproduction of the sound
6. That is really the intent here with this post...Learning

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2023, 07:01:33 AM »
5. I do not make the rules. However, the only thing that refutes Physics is better Physics. So that being said, Physics tells us that the time it takes sound to travel from Point A to Point B should be as equal as possible creating a nice even sine wave in each channel to work in unison. Adding more factors "mics" creates problems with the reproduction of the sound

This is a example of when a simple concept can confuse more than help. Imagine you have stereo playback. Place one microphone in your chair and start recording. Play 20Hz to 20kHz sine sweep into your stereo. View the recording. At a certain frequencies you will find comb filtering. Now move the microphone two feets. You can find comb filtering in a different frequencies. Your concept is applicable to this case.

But why doesn't it disturb us while listening?

Because our brain processes sound in a complex way and creates an illusion for us. It depends on the volume, impact time, signal frequency, etc. All of this is beautifully explained by Gutbucket, DSatz and our friends here in TS forum.

I am repeating Gutbucket. We cannot avoid comb filtering. Unless you record in mono and play back with one speaker. Also reflections itself during recording/playback causes comb filtering. But we can reduce negative effect of comb filtering. It depends on microphones count, speakers count, microphone setup, location, our preferences, our listening skills, etc. Some classical music recording masters use only one stereo pair. Some use a decca tree, Voltronic gave you an example Tony Faulkner array.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 05:08:43 PM by kuba e »

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.081 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF