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Author Topic: Improved PAS technique - better imaging with good clarity  (Read 44912 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Improved PAS technique - better imaging with good clarity
« on: April 03, 2014, 09:57:14 PM »
I've reworked the Improved Point At Stacks (PAS) microphone configuration setup table I posted a few years ago to make it more useful for tapers, rather than simply consisting of a few spacing recommendations for quick-and-easy PAS setup using cardioids only.

The table takes PAS and applies the Stereo Zoom concept and data to suggest the most appropriate spacing between microphones determined by whatever angle you end up with between microphones when you point them directly at the PA speakers.  The new table extends this from cardioid-only to the full range of 1st order polar-patterns. I’ll explain where, why and how to use it in following posts. I've attached it below as both a GIF and PDF.

But first, here's a copy of the original simplified table with only two columns and coarser 10-degree PAS angle increments copied from the previous thread (calculated using cardioids, the shaded row is DIN)-





[2018/12/6 edit- Below is the new table showing spacing for microphones of various polar patterns including figure-8, supercardioid, cardioid, subcardioid, and omni]-

[edit- If you have them, consider trying figure 8's in PAS.  They require the least spacing between mics of any pattern, allowing even narrow-width mic bars to work.  More here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177050.0]
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 03:14:03 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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How to use the table-

1) Determine the angle between the PA speakers as seen from the recording position.

2) Consult the table. Find the angle between microphones in the left column.

3) Choose the spacing under the column which corresponds to the polar pattern of the microphones you are using.  Alternately, you may want to select which polar pattern to use based on the spacing indicated versus what you are able to achieve with your mic-stand setup.

4) Setup the mics with that spacing. If your mic bar doesn’t let you achieve that particular spacing, you can use microphones or capsules of a different pattern if you have them, or just try to get the microphones as close as possible to the indicated spacings shown for that microphone pattern you do have.

5) Record. Enjoy the show. Go nuts. Go home.

6) Tweak it to your liking if you want- Play it back and listen.  If you prefer a more narrow-image presentation with the on-stage and PA sound more tightly grouped in the middle between the speakers, use a slightly narrower microphone spacing next time (which corresponds to a wider SRA squeezing more between the speakers on playback).  If you’d prefer a wider-image presentation, use a wider microphone spacing the next time (narrower SRA stretching things out to the width between speakers).  Once you determine your personal preference you can use this table as a guide to get close then bump the spacing one way or the other as you like.

That’s it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 03:11:38 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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The why and where-
 
The table is based on data from the excellent sengpielaudio page which has been linked here at TS many times before.  It’s a great tool.

The inspiration to revisit this was deadheadcorey's recent thread titled- PAS/POoS which got me thinking again about why the PAS configuration makes a lot of sense in difficult recording situations such as rooms with bad sounding ambiences, overloud obnoxious audiences, and recording positions which are further away from the stage and PA than we'd choose, because it helps maximize the direct/reverberant pickup from a given location.  In simple terms that means it focuses as much as possible on the sound from the PA and band on stage (the direct sound), and less on the sound arriving from everywhere else (the reverberant, ambient sound). 

The most effective way to maximize the direct sound and minimize the reverberant room sound is to move closer to the source.  The extreme is stack taping where the majority of the sound arriving in the recording position comes directly from the PA and very little of it is reverberant room sound (at least in proportion to the PA sound).  The opposite extreme is the far back of an arena, where the situation is reversed and most of the sound arriving at the recording position is reverberant room sound, swamping the direct sound.

PAS using supercardioids maximizes the proportion of direct sound picked up verses the reverberant sound as much as possible from a given recording location.  It isn’t a substitute for finding the optimal recording location and it certainly can’t make the back of the room sound like the front.  It simply makes the best of a mediocre situation. From a good recording position in an excellent sounding room, other configurations may be more appropriate, but using the table won’t make a bad recording.  It’s entirely possible to have a direct/reverberant ratio that’s too high.  That’s one problem with a stack tape or a straight SBD, it’s mostly direct sound that often doesn’t have enough good reverberant room information and sounds not so 'live' but rather lifeless.

The problem with the typical PAS setup is that it doesn’t indicate how much spacing is appropriate between the two microphones. Most tapers simply use whatever spacing their mic bar provides. At the narrow microphone angles typical of PAS, the spacing between microphones is often not enough to achieve good playback imaging which evenly fills the space between speakers with phantom images (or sounds open and as if ‘you are there again’ over headphones) and provides an appropriately wide and involving audio illusion with the audience applause wrapping around the listener.


PAS is a dedicated concert tapers microphone configuration and this table quantifies it to make it a more valuable tool with improved stereo imaging.

Here's a link to the original thread discussing the first go-round at this, which partly works through the process of developing the table- !!Stereo Zoom simplified for PAS!!

The new version of the table expands on the original by extending it to multiple microphone polar patterns other than cardioid.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 08:41:07 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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More details on each step and on the other stuff in the table-

1) With PAS, the angle between PA speakers is always the same as the angle between microphones.  Using supercardioid (or hypercardioid) pattern microphones and pointing them directly at the PA is what maximizes pickup of the direct sound component as much as possible from the recording position.  The first step after choosing a recording position is to measure that angle.  Since they are the same, you can either meausure the angle between PA speakers or the angle between microphones.  There are a few ways to measure.   I’ve learned to measure distant angles quickly and relatively accurately by using what I call the “backyard astronomer / poor sailor method”.  A balled fist held at arms length and viewed through one squinted eye covers approximately a 10 degree arc.  Practice measuring a few known angles and you can perfect it pretty quickly.  I need to kind of stick my thumb knuckle out a bit to get a full 10 degrees.  Yes it looks funny when doing it.  Smart-phone apps now exist which make measuring angles easily without looking like you are shaking your fist at the stage.

Alternately you might simply go ahead and set up the microphones, point them directly at the PA speakers, measure the angle between the microphones themselves, then readjust their spacing once you determine what that should be.  You can measure microphone angles directly by whiping out a protractor or using an angleometer, use some creative oragami folding techniques to estimate angles, or a smart-phone app.

2) Consulting the table- If you understand the Stereo Zoom concept, here’s a few things going on here: The PA angle is the Orchestra Angle and on this table that’s always the microphone angle as well.. that’s what makes it PAS.  The table is based around a Stereo Recording Angle which is around 10 degrees wider than the Orchestra Angle (the PA angle), which tends to be more appropriate in most cases rather than making the SRA exactly equal to the Orchestra Angle.

The options in the other rows for the same microphone angle are SRAs which are 20 degrees wider than the PA speakers, the same width as the PA and 10 degrees narrower than the PA.  That information and the total SRA angle are indicated in the columns to the right of the one indicating the closest “standard” mic setup, which is just for reference. The one setup indicated on the table that equated exactly to a relatively standard near-spaced stereo pair configuration widely used by tapers is DIN (which maybe only a standard to tapers and not the rest of the world anyway), the others are approximate.  Yes, it is true that ORTF is only ORTF if it uses small diaphragm cardioids which have well behaved polar patterns angled 110 degrees apart and spaced 17cm.  The squiggly line in front indicates “approximately” and the indication simply provides a general point of reference many users will be familiar with. [Edit- this referred to a previously posted table that I decided was more complicated than necessary.  Unless otherwise noted, the values in the table above produce an SRA (Stereo Recording Angle) 10 degrees wider than the PAS angle, which seems to be about right in most cases.  Details on this for anyone interested can be found this post, later in this thread.

4) The configuration with black box around it corresponds to DIN.

5) The highlighted cells are those where the proportion of imaging resulting from level differences (ΔL) and from time-of-arrival-difference (ΔT) columns is approximately equal.  Note that DIN falls in this category.  Since tapers tend to use the DIN configuration frequently, I've highlighted alternate configurations which may provide similar imaging qualities.  Try it and let me know what you think.

6) Notice how wide the microphone spacings become with narrow microphone angles.  As the angle between microphones gets increasingly narrow, the level differences between them decrease rapidly and they begin to behave more like omnis with regards to time-of-arrival stereo imaging, although more directional patterns will not behave like omnis at all in terms of direct/reverberant pickup ratio.  It might be difficult to setup the wide spacings indicated on the table due to practical considerations such as the limited length of the microphone mounting bar, but since decent spaced omni recordings can be made with less wide spacings it may be acceptable to err towards spacings which are somewhat less wide than what the table suggests.  However I doubt I’m the only one who likes omnis a few meters wide when recording from far enough away that the angle between PA speakers is only measures about 40 degrees wide or so.  When you consider it from that perspective, setting up supercardioids about a meter apart with a 40 degree angle between them will begin to seem much more reasonable than it might have at first glance, even if it’s not always so easy to achieve. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 05:39:10 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline MIQ

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Hi Gut

Excellent post on applying the Stereo Zoom concept as usual. Thank you for posting this!

I think there may be a small cut and paste error in the 50 degree row.

(Trying to walk a fine line between shameless self promotion and adding useful info) >:D
Like you wrote there are smartphone apps that can increase the choices beyond the 10 degree increments you've listed. One nice thing about the Stereo Mic Tools app we developed is that it allows you to measure the angle of your mics when pointed at the stacks in the "bombsight" screen then quickly flip to the recording angle calculator screen to determine the exact mic spacing that makes the recording angle match the mic angle. Also we provide selection of many popular directional mic patterns including the cardioid and supercard patterns you've shown in these tables. Of course a printed copy of the table you've created will work even when your iPhone battery is dead.  ;D

FYI your original post on this is the first reference listed in the "info" page of the Stereo Mic Tools app. Much respect.  :)

Miq
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 06:01:25 AM by MIQ »

Offline deadheadcorey

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thanks for putting this together gutbucket!
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Offline Ultfris101

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this is great. many thanks for the effort. I need to get much wider spreads in the small, narrow club where I typically tape from the back of the room near the soundboard. going to try that tonight.

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Offline Gutbucket

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Thanks for the thanks. 

There is one thing I'll ask of those of you who use this which will help refine it-
Once you've used this enough to determine which SRA width choice you like most of the time (+20°, +10°, same as the stack angle, -10°), please post here with feedback to let me know your general preference.  And I mean your preference for the resulting playback results, rather than those based on setup constraints like whatever your mic bar width happens to allow.

That question is something I've wondered about and it can only be determined through trial and error.  The +20° to -10° range is a simply a best guess at an appropriate range of options.  The best answer may be mostly personal preference, may be situation dependant, or a combination of things.  I may add a row for +30 as well, to extend the options to less wide spacings which are closer to typical PAS setup as commonly practiced, and which can be more easily done with less wide bars, even though I suspect that will be a wider SRA (and narrower resulting image) than is optimal.  I doubt there is any need to go to finer than 10° angular increments.  Similarly the tolerance on the fractional centimeter and inch measurements on the table are more precise than they need to be.  Get it to within an inch or so and that's probably close enough, especially at wider spacings.


[Edit- ^ that table was replaced by the newest one (Dec 2018), which is simpler and applies more broadly]

Thanks to Michael Williams for the Stereo Zoom data and research.  This is just a re-interpretation of that to present it in a way that's specific to what we do.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 08:56:28 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dyneq

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Hey All,

I'd like to experiment with this method and had a couple of questions:

To those of you who have tried this in the field: what method did you use to determine the angle between the PA speakers? The chart has 10 degree increments, and that seems like a tricky distinction to make in the field. Since the spacing is quite different for the different angles, I'd want to try and get fairly close to the actual angle, especially as I experiment to find my spacing preferences (as repeatable as possible).

Anyone experimented with it outdoors? If so, which part of the spacing spectrum did you run/prefer?

I plan to try this at Rockygrass where it was a gentle slope from the OTS down to the stage (not a well-defined bowl). After last September's flooding, it may look completely different this year.

Offline Gutbucket

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questions:

To those of you who have tried this in the field: what method did you use to determine the angle between the PA speakers? The chart has 10 degree increments, and that seems like a tricky distinction to make in the field. Since the spacing is quite different for the different angles, I'd want to try and get fairly close to the actual angle, especially as I experiment to find my spacing preferences (as repeatable as possible).

[self quote]
There are a few ways to measure.   I’ve learned to measure distant angles quickly and relatively accurately by using what I call the “backyard astronomer / poor sailor method”.  A balled fist held at arms length and viewed through one squinted eye covers approximately a 10 degree arc.  Practice measuring a few known angles and you can perfect it pretty quickly.  I need to kind of stick my thumb knuckle out a bit to get a full 10 degrees.  Yes it looks funny when doing it.  Smart-phone apps now exist which make measuring angles easily without looking like you are shaking your fist at the stage.

Alternately you might simply go ahead and set up the microphones, point them directly at the PA speakers, measure the angle between the microphones themselves, then readjust their spacing once you determine what that should be.  You can measure microphone angles directly by whiping out a protractor or using an angleometer, use some creative oragami folding techniques to estimate angles, or a smart-phone app.
[/self quote]
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Ultfris101

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I've been using the outstretched fist method. Never actually measured to see how close it is but I've heard it mentioned a few times.
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Offline voltronic

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The best tool I have found for this is a compass bearing app with camera overlay.  You point center, note the bearing.  Pan to the far left or right of your included angle, note the second bearing.  Couldn't be easier.  I have found that the "large viewfinder" overlay (second image) is the most accurate. 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass
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Offline dyneq

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Thanks, folks!

Since I'm after repeatability as I test/tweak this technique, I'll give the app a try. I'm the same way about cooking; follow the recipe as it is written the first few times, then adjust to my tastes!

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The best tool I have found for this is a compass bearing app with camera overlay.  You point center, note the bearing.  Pan to the far left or right of your included angle, note the second bearing.  Couldn't be easier.  I have found that the "large viewfinder" overlay (second image) is the most accurate. 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass

Thanks!

I've been using "Smart Tools" in my android phone for some time (paid app with a whole bunch of stuff in it) but they have a free "Smart Compass" app which is part of that.  Works really well, too.  I'm still gonna give the AB Bearing app a shot next time I'm out.

Smart Compass is here:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kr.sira.compass

Offline voltronic

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The best tool I have found for this is a compass bearing app with camera overlay.  You point center, note the bearing.  Pan to the far left or right of your included angle, note the second bearing.  Couldn't be easier.  I have found that the "large viewfinder" overlay (second image) is the most accurate. 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass

Thanks!

I've been using "Smart Tools" in my android phone for some time (paid app with a whole bunch of stuff in it) but they have a free "Smart Compass" app which is part of that.  Works really well, too.  I'm still gonna give the AB Bearing app a shot next time I'm out.

Smart Compass is here:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kr.sira.compass

Very cool!  It does the same thing as the AR Bearing Compass app, but looks a bit slicker.  Thanks!
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Offline Ultfris101

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I totally forgot about the Mic Tools app! Yes, the performer's angle measurement tool is great! Just used it for the first time a few weeks ago.
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Offline MIQ

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Thanks Ultfris101!

We just added that functionality to the Stereo Mic Tools App in the latest release.     ;D

-Miq

Offline voltronic

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Thanks Ultfris101!

We just added that functionality to the Stereo Mic Tools App in the latest release.     ;D

-Miq

Any consideration for an Android version?
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Sorry Voltronic coding for iOS is enough fun for us.

-Miq

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Sorry Voltronic coding for iOS is enough fun for us.

-Miq

Android gets no love.  Have no Apple products in my household and am not about to start now.  I'll just stick to the table as a graphic on my phone and the compass -  does the job perfectly.  Now if only my SGC clips played nicely with my couplings, I'd be happy.

Offline MIQ

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Hi adrianf,

That sounds like a solid way of doing it. We are just happy that more people are applying the Stereo Recording Angle approach to setting up their mics. As with most stuff, there are lots of ways to get there. 

Miq

Offline Gutbucket

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Royal we?  ;)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline MIQ

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Royal we?  ;)

 :D
I always say "we" when I write about the app because there are two of us working on it.  My buddy Rob writes all the code.  I should realize that's not apparent.  :facepalm:

Rob and I are happy people are applying the concepts regardless of the process they use.  Our app just pulls together a few tools in one place to make it a little more streamlined.

Miq

 

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As always Gutbucket, great job on the write up & thanks for making me open my eyes to different techniques. I ran my AKG's DINa & my Telefunkens PAS last night on the same stand, I'm converted now. The DINa is a fine recording but when I switch to the PAS I can hear less room, better impact & the same soundstage without the extra "ambiance" of the room. It's an eye opening experience & as you stated in one of your threads regarding this subject, why get a great imaging recording of room reverb? PAS still gave me great imaging with better impact, thanks! As a side note, I can't believe how much more information there is on this site vs when this place was in its infancy, kudos to all!
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



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Offline Gutbucket

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Hey thanks, Carl.  And thanks for posting here with your real-word feedback.

Of course I really want it all, including good ambient/reverberant imaging too!  It's just that, that stuff is just further down the list of what's most important and this helps shuffle the priorities around.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline huskerdu

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This is awesome...thanks!
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Offline Cobiwan

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Any advice on running Nak CP-4s PAS? What spacing should be used?
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
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Offline carlbeck

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Any advice on running Nak CP-4s PAS? What spacing should be used?
The spacing used between capsules is determined by the angle required to PAS (point at the stacks or as close as possible) also the nice thing is that even if your mic bar isn't wide enough to achieve the desired angle you will still produce good results. All of this new found knowledge has me on a buying spree, I now have three new stereo bars in different widths to allow me to get the wide spacing preferred with the angles that PAS requires. Not to thread jack but look at the thread "New Rode stereo bar"
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
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Offline Cobiwan

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So you're saying PAS spacing is same for shotguns as it is for cardiods?
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Mics:
2 matched pairs of Oktava MK-012 MSP6 with Bill Sitler mod + cardioid, hyper-cardioid, and omni capsules
Church Audio CA-14 omni/UBB
Sonic Studios DSM-6S
Recorders:
Tascam HD-P2, Tascam DR-680, Zoom F-8
Cables:
Gakables XLR, S/PDIF, battery and umbrella, DigiGal AES > S/PDIF, Darktrain hot swap battery

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Offline Gutbucket

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Here's the conceptual aspect of it-

The more directional the microphone's pickup pattern is, the less spacing is required for wide PAS angles.  As the PAS angle between microphones grows smaller, differences in suggested spacing also grow smaller.  At the limit with both microphones facing directly ahead (no angle between them) the spacing is the same regardless of pickup pattern.

In practical terms, the difference in suggested spacing for cardioids and for supercardioids is pretty minor.

Shotguns don't have smooth well-behaved polar patterns, and don't work very well as pairs in terms of stereo imaging.  Their pattern irregularities introduce complications which are more significant than these minor differences in spacing.  In general the same conceptual aspect applies though- if the PAS angle is narrow, space them more widely.  The values on the table are likely to be as good a starting point for a pair of shotguns as any.

I might use a shotgun from far back outside, but then I'd probably use just one of them pointing directly at the stage, placed in the center and mixed with a pair of widely spaced omnis.  The pattern irregularity would then be less of an issue and the imaging wouldn't be based solely on the angle/spacing relationship between a pair of shotguns.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline MIQ

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Cardioid
Supercardioid
Hypercard patterns

Offline MIQ

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80 deg angle
28cm spacing w each pattern
You lose about 5 degrees off each side if the Recording Angle going from Card to Super to Hyper

Offline MIQ

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90 degrees
20cm spacing
Losing slightly larger amounts off each end of the Recording Angle as you move from Card to Super (9 deg)
and Super to Hyper (6 deg)

Offline MIQ

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110 deg
17cm spacing
Losing similar amounts off each end of the Recording Angle as the DIN styles. Card to Super (9 deg) and Super to Hyper (7 deg).

Smaller angles between mics and bigger spacings lead to less difference between the different patterns. The Recording Angle becomes more dependent on time differences (mic spacing) and less on intensity differences (pattern shape) as the mic angle is reduced.

-Miq

Offline Gutbucket

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For concert recording as done around here in situations where the taper chooses to use PAS, wide angles of 80 degrees or more are rare.  Angles narrower narrower than that will be far more common.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline MIQ

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Sure, the further back in the room you get from the stacks, the less of an angle you'll need between the mics.  Like your table shows and you've discussed, the angle is getting small and the distance between mic is getting big. The Recording Angle becomes dominated by the arrival time difference and not the level differences caused by the mic patterns. 

Here's Card, Super, Hyper for 60deg mic angle and 50cm spacing

Offline MIQ

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Here is 40 deg mic angle with 90cm spacing
Hardly any change in Rec Angle between them now.

Offline MIQ

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How do you feel about the imaging you perceive when using configurations that rely mostly on arrival time differences (small angle with big spacings)?  To me the image created by widely separated mikes is spacious, but the individual positions of the performers is not well defined.  The other thing that keeps me from wanting to use narrow mic angles is that this often means you are too far back in the room. I realize that we don't always get to pick where we record, but if you get stuck too far back in the room, you get beyond the critical distance and there is not enough direct sound. Too much of the room usually just sounds bad to me. Who wants a recording from a bad seat at the show?

I think some of what has made DIN, NOS and ORTF style configs so popular is that they often work well from places in the room that sound good.  If the performers are spaced 80 to 100 degrees in front of you, you have a good chance at being in a spot that has a favorable direct to reverberant mix. Does that change substantially when the direct sound is coming mainly from the stacks? 

Another reason the semi-coincident configurations are popular is that they combine both arrival time and level differences to determine the image location.  This seems to provide a good compromise between a spacious sound and accurate image placement.

There are places where there is just no choice and you have to deal with a narrow recording angle, or a spot where you want to record with more directional mics to get less room and more direct sound, even when you are not beyond the critical distance. Applying the PAS table you provided or the Stereo Zoom concepts in general will give you a better chance at getting a recording you like.

Miq
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 04:11:41 AM by MIQ »

Offline Gutbucket

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The critical distance for most rooms is much closer than people generally think. Unless setup on stage, pretty much any recording position from out in the audience is going to be further than the critical distance.  That's certainly true at for unamplified music, a PA will have a somewhat different critical distance due to it controlled directionality, which extends the critical distance further into the room.  This improved PAS technique helps makes the best of normal taping positions which are pretty much always farther away than the critical distance.

The common problem with most PAS setups is not enough spacing between microphones, not too much.  That's due primarily to the limited size of commonly available mounting bars and the practical difficulties of spacing the microphones farther apart when doing so is appropriate, which is most of the time when recording from out in the audience due to the microphone PAS angles involved.  It's easy and common to use a standard narrow bar regardless of microphone angle.  Although it may also be less than ideal to use a wide bar with wide microphone angles, that error simply isn't very common or as much of a problem, certainly not in practical terms.

Some sound preferences are generally objective and agreed upon for most listeners, others will always be more personally subjective.  Much of the driving force behind this PAS stuff is objective as determined by listener testing (the Williams curves and those of other researchers), although within that personal subjective preferences appear in subtleties of degree at the margins.  On a personal level, I really dislike imaging which may be sharp if I hold my head perfectly still but is unstable and moves between the speakers when shift around on playback.  I find that trait more common with coincident setups, those that don't use sufficient spacing, and those which are overly monophonic.  That aspect doesn't bother some listeners as long as the imaging is sufficiently sharp.  It ruins the illusion for me.  I prefer a good balance of imaging, spaciousness, envelopment and ambience, with a stable soundstage.  I really like a good spaced omni recording or Decca tree (three omni) recording in a good room.  Personally I find the faults of wide, stable and immersive but fuzzy far less objectionable than flat, unstable, and overly dry, with pin-point sharp imaging.  It's much closer to what I hear and enjoy at a live performance and is more musically satisfying to me.  It’s the far less egregious error to my ear. 

Stereo is all an illusion.  There are always faults, but with the right knowledge at least the recordist can choose their own lesser poison.  These are just tools to help achieve the desired result, rather than a rules dictating what the results should be.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 11:59:57 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline carlbeck

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My own recent experimentation has brought me in complete agreement with what was said above. For years I had been running the standard coincident & near coincident patterns, almost to a fault actually. Recently with my new microphones since they weren't actives, ie able to use in an active bar I've experimented with the PAS technique. I've been reading & re-reading the stereo zoom paper which makes a little more sense every time I read it before & after recording a show. For me the PAS technique has made better recordings, as a control factor I've still been running my actives on the same stand in Din or DINa which has been my usual configuration for the last decade. On every occasion I've preferred the PAS recording, it may be a matter of new microphones possibly but I try to focus on the imaging aspect, the feel of the room & overall listening pleasure. I've found the imaging to be just as good if not better with PAS, It's more than likely related to the rooms I record in but the point is that it is working for me. I don't find image quality to be less vs DIN which was my original fear plus I've had the added bonus of picking up more direct sound vs room reverb. Again, I think for what I do, recording rock & roll shows usually FOB within 50ft of the stage PAS is a better fit, if I ever run on stage then I will revert back to DIN, DINa or ORTF but I rarely record on stage. As with everything it's a personal preference, if it works for you & you're pleased with your recordings then it's a win-win in my book.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline MIQ

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Thanks for the great replies.  :)

The critical distance for most rooms is much closer than people generally think. Unless setup on stage, pretty much any recording position from out in the audience is going to be further than the critical distance.  That's certainly true at for unamplified music, a PA will have a somewhat different critical distance due to it controlled directionality, which extends the critical distance further into the room.  This improved PAS technique helps makes the best of normal taping positions which are pretty much always farther away than the critical distance.

I probably should have written "well beyond the critical distance".

Carlbeck, in your recent experiments do you recall the recording/PAS angles you used?  Were they less than 60 deg? 

I like and think I understand the advantages of capturing as much of the direct PA sound using directional mics pointed on axis at the stacks.  I'm still wondering what the venues are like that have really narrow recording/PAS angles but still have a nice direct to room sound at the mics. The rooms I've taped in aren't huge and have a square or rectangular floor plan with the stage along the long side of the rectangle.  I'm usually able to get fairly close to the stage with my mics. I guess I could imagine and think I have seen a few pics here of narrow rooms that might require narrow mic angles and still have a good balance of direct and room sound.  The times I've had to record more narrow recording angles have been from places in the room that had too much room sound and I have not liked the recordings.

For people applying the PAS technique or the Stereo Zoom techniques in general, what kind of recording/PAS angles are you using?  What are they for the recordings you think sound the best?  What is the range of "normal" recording angles for the kind of taping most people are doing around here? 

Miq

Offline Gutbucket

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The times I've had to record more narrow recording angles have been from places in the room that had too much room sound and I have not liked the recordings.

Making the best of those kinds of less than ideal situations is the primary goal of this technique.  That and simplifying setup.

At the critical distance in a good sounding room, a pair of omnis are likely to get a good balance of direct and reverberant sound. From far away, pointing directional mics directly at the source makes the most of the direct sound reaches that position.

When recording closer to the critical distance in good sounding environments, the Stereo Zoom concept on which this technique is based still applies, but it becomes less and less necessary to point highly directional microphones right at the PA to maximize the pickup of whatever direct sound is available reaching the recording position.  So alternate Stereo Zoom solutions may be prefered which provide different flavors of imaging, different perceptions of depth, and different balances of room sound and distribution of that reverberation in the playback image.  At some point when moving closer (remaining on-axis to the PA, not moving into the "too close, off-axis dead zone" of the PA, which is a different issue), the sound will get overly dry using this technique and choosing another setup which doesn't emphasize the direct PA sound maximally will be a better choice.  But that's far less common for most tapers than being in a less than great sounding room and/or recording from farther back.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline carlbeck

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Thanks for the great replies.  :)

The critical distance for most rooms is much closer than people generally think. Unless setup on stage, pretty much any recording position from out in the audience is going to be further than the critical distance.  That's certainly true at for unamplified music, a PA will have a somewhat different critical distance due to it controlled directionality, which extends the critical distance further into the room.  This improved PAS technique helps makes the best of normal taping positions which are pretty much always farther away than the critical distance.

I probably should have written "well beyond the critical distance".

Carlbeck, in your recent experiments do you recall the recording/PAS angles you used?  Were they less than 60 deg? 

For people applying the PAS technique or the Stereo Zoom techniques in general, what kind of recording/PAS angles are you using?  What are they for the recordings you think sound the best?  What is the range of "normal" recording angles for the kind of taping most people are doing around here? 

Miq

I've been between 60 & 70 degrees on average, it's not that different than a standard DIN in most cases but I've been focusing on achieving better distance between the capsules. Quite frankly unless you're an imaging nut like I am most wouldn't tell the difference. The benefit has been easier set up (for me at the time of the show) with a noticeable improvement in direct sound. Last night I taped in a small bar setting & we had the opportunity to clamp on a beam that was two feet from the stacks (speakers actually) so I ran DIN, it made sense being on top of the sound source & less than three feet off the stage. Imaging is of course superb but I attribute that more to the location of soundsource than standard configs.
I know you like, tape for people's approval and stuff, and wave your tapes around like they're your dick...  but even you can't actually think section tapes from philips sound good.  



Mics: Telefunken Elam 260, 61, 62, MBHO KA200, KA500 > Niant PFA's, AKG C34L-MS
Preamps: Grace Lunatec V2, Shure FP24
Decks: Tascam DR-2d, Zoom F8

Old rig: Recording: AKG C34 & AKG CK1X or CK2X > MK46 > 460 > Aeta Mix2000 > Sound Devices 702

Playback: Thorens TD125, Denon DVD-2900> Bel Canto DAC-1 > Audible Illusions 3B > Rogue Atlas >ZU Wax Shotgun> Hyperion 938
ALL TUBES BABY!!!

Offline MIQ

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Gut, nice explanation of the application of different mic techniques to different recording locations, and the transition from wanting to capture as much direct PA sound as possible to applying the Stereo Zoom concepts to optimize for, or flavor with, other recording attributes.
 
Quite frankly unless you're an imaging nut like I am most wouldn't tell the difference.

I'm definitely an imaging nut too.    ;D

Thanks

Offline Gutbucket

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When the PAS angle is narrow but a sufficiently wide microphone spacing is impractical, give figure 8's a try if you have them.  For any given PAS angle, fig-8s require the least spacing between them as compared to any other pattern.  More on this here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177050.0
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 03:59:40 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Interesting streaming listening comparison of a few different microphone setups allowing one to listen to the way they capture stereo ambience at Helmut Wittek's Hauptmikrofon website, here- http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/audio/stereoambience.html

Granted none of the samples are of music, but they do provide a useful basic comparison for hearing the differences between X/Y coincident, two near-spaced setups (ORTF and improved-PAS-like), and a spaced omni configuration.

I'm posting the link here because I find I personally prefer the setup labeled "quasi-ORTF" for all samples there except the construction site, and that "quasi-ORTF" setup closely resembles a typical "Improved-PAS" configuration (40cm / 40 degrees) with the microphones angled only 20 degrees away from center - which is a pretty typical PAS angle from the taper section or soundboard area further back in the room.  Only on the construction site sample did I prefer the ORTF sample for it's more distinct left/right imaging width.  For all the other samples I felt the quasi-ORTF samples produced a better balance between sharp imaging (X/Y furthest to that extreme) and natural sounding diffuse ambient openness (spaced omnis furthest to that extreme).


A few comments-

I was listening on headphones.

There is no right or wrong choice here, only personal preference.

I like the improved-PAS-like quasi-ORTF samples here because of their stereo qualities - that is to say, how they reproduce the sound, even though it is not actually being leveraged for the reasons we'd choose PAS!  It just sounds better to me than the other samples.  Where as the primary purpose for choosing PAS is to either simplify setup, or maximize the direct/reverberant ratio as much as possible.  It's very encouraging that it also simply sounds better and more natural to me when in a prefered recording location without the ease of setup constraint.

I like to angle spaced omnis apart from each other rather than pointing parallel to each other, especially if that pair is the only mics I'm using.  That provides some additional level difference information at high frequencies which makes the imaging somewhat less washy and more distinct.  I think that would improve the spaced omni samples here, but the way its been done here more clearly represents the basic differences between setups without that kind of modification.

I wish there was a way to play both the spaced omnis and X/Y samples simultaneously.  I like that setup for live music recording because it sort of gets the best of both worlds.  There was a sample player page at the Schoeps website at one point (may still be up) which allowed similar samples to be played singly or simultaneously.   I don't think it was intended for simultaneous playback of more than one sample at a time but it worked.  It was very interesting hearing the difference between each setup on its own as well as combinations of two setups, as in a four microphone configuration.  It helped confirm my suspected preference for X/Y + spaced omnis over near-spaced + spaced omnis, and over all of the two mic configurations alone.  Best of both worlds from a harmonious combination.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline heathen

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Do you know what they mean by "open cardioids" in the quasi-ORTF examples?  I'm assuming it's a wide cardioid or the like.  I'd be curious why they didn't use a the same cardioids for the quasi-ORTF as they used for XY and ORTF.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Good catch, I didn't see that.  That would be the Schoeps mk22, which is between a cardioid (mk4) and subcardioid (mk21) in pattern.  I didn't realize they'd used different capsules for the ORTF and modified-ORTF samples.  That does complicate things and make the comparison a bit less useful for our purposes by introducing another variable.  I generally like the sound of the mk22 better, as long as it works in the acoustic and assuming all else is equal except the setup configuration, so I now need to take that into consideration in my preference for modified-ORTF in these samples.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline morst

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Quite frankly unless you're an imaging nut like I am most wouldn't tell the difference.

I'm definitely an imaging nut too.    ;D
Not me. I go for even channel balance. Don't really even consider imaging in post. And my mic placement is pretty much point & shoot. I used to use cards in ORTF exclusively, until I lost the mounting bar, now I run X/Y, and place them where it might sound the best and not be a hassle to maintain the spot.

The stereo zoom info has only just crept into my thinking. Maybe it will affect my setups and mixes, maybe not...  ???
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Offline noahbickart

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Good catch, I didn't see that.  That would be the Schoeps mk22, which is between a cardioid (mk4) and subcardioid (mk21) in pattern.  I didn't realize they'd used different capsules for the ORTF and modified-ORTF samples.  That does complicate things and make the comparison a bit less useful for our purposes by introducing another variable.  I generally like the sound of the mk22 better, as long as it works in the acoustic and assuming all else is equal except the setup configuration, so I now need to take that into consideration in my preference for modified-ORTF in these samples.

To my ears and to my playback transducers, the mk22 is the finest capsule Schoeps makes and can be used in the widest possible scenarios.

I *always* run a pair of mk22 no matter what.
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Offline morst

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I *always* run a pair of mk22 no matter what.

Do you have a standard way of positioning them? I just got a pair of Neumann KM143's, their Wide Cardioid condensers, and have only used them a few times, and all but once, on stage. Very interested in practical experience with the Hypocardioid (!) pattern!!
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Offline noahbickart

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I *always* run a pair of mk22 no matter what.

Do you have a standard way of positioning them? I just got a pair of Neumann KM143's, their Wide Cardioid condensers, and have only used them a few times, and all but once, on stage. Very interested in practical experience with the Hypocardioid (!) pattern!!

I try to use the PAS theory with them. I've found that a 35cm spread at 70 degrees tends to work well from the OTS at MSG. FOB, I've used them with a NOS setup with good results. Onstage I've used them at 21cm and 110 degrees.

Basically apply the stereophonic zoom, knowing that you'll always want a little wider spacing than regular cardioids.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Gutbucket

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^ And that's what this Improved PAS technique does.  It makes the application of Stereo Zoom to Point At Stacks simple.

I'm posting to notify thread readers of an edit I just made correcting a minor copy/paste typo in the extended table GIF and PDF in the initial post.  Previously the SRA numbers for the 50 degree PAS angle column were off by 10 degrees, copied from the cell immediately above without modification.  Nothing major, the edit doesn't effect the recommended spacing numbers and that column is mostly just informational, but has now been corrected.  Typo was pointed out to me by a TS member earlier today (thanks man).

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dyneq

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I finally got around to trying this technique using Gutbucket's chart. Here is the result: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=188097.0

I need to listen to it some more, then put it away for a while and listen again before I can say what I think of it...

I think that the caps were most likely pointing slightly outside of the stacks (couldn't check during the show). One thing I noticed during mastering was that the vocals were much higher than the instruments at times. I'd expect that since the drums and guitars were already very loud from the stage so the vocals were turned up to be able to be heard.

Offline dyneq

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I ran PAS again recently: https://archive.org/details/billystrings2018-11-30.billystrings2018-11-30.ca14.c.flac16

After several listens of both recordings, I am a fan of this technique. I can detect a difference between each in terms of spaciousness, although I think the radically different genres make that more difficult on first listen (more obvious between songs when you can hear people cheering and talking).

For Earthless, I tipped my cap to the Hoff, so I was limited to the narrowest spacing on the chart. For Billy Strings I was able to use the recommended spacing for the angle from the section. I did need to estimate my spacing due to the angle not being on the chart.

Offline Gutbucket

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Great recording John!  IMO this is an excellent example of how good CA-14(c) > CA-UBB > PCM-M10 can sound.. from a good spot, with the mics setup optimally.  Glad this approach is working out well for you.  Thanks for the feedback and links to your recordings using the technique.

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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline noahbickart

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Hey Gutbucket, do you think you might be able to produce a detailed table for the mk22?
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline dyneq

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You're very welcome! Thank you for doing the legwork and sharing your findings in an easy to use document. I pretty much record PA's exclusively so I like that I can use this method instead of the patterns that were developed for acoustic music.


Offline Gutbucket

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Hey Noah. Sure I'll take a look at it again with subcards instead.

I remember checking the difference between cards and supercards when I originally did these tables, and the difference seemed minor, at least less than I expected.  But a basic aspect which will hold regardless is this- The greatest variation will be at wide PAS angles, and the least at narrow PAS angles.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Based on Noah's request, I just posted a new revised table on the first post of this thread which indicates PAS spacing based on pickup pattern.  It includes fig-8, supercardioid, cardioid, subcardioid, and omni, all based on the Stereo Zoom data from the sengpielaudio webpage calculator.   Here's a link to that post with the new table

This took considerable effort today and I'm quite excited about folks here at TS giving it a try.  I suspect it will prove quite useful, even if only taking a look at it so as to internalize a gut-feel for the general spacing/angle/pattern relationships.  I see it as further development of the PAS method, which is the only microphone configuration which applies solely to the domain of concert taping, conceived by tapers, for tapers.  I consider Improved PAS to be one of my more valuable contributions to fellow tapers.  But really all I've done here is to modify Point At Stacks in the context of Stereo Zoom to make it easily approachable and applicable.  Nothing really new here except for the insight into the applicability of SZ to the unique suitability of PAS to audience taping, which is a unique oddity in the audio recording world. Ironically, I rarely use this method myself because I almost always using multichannel OMT setups, but OMT is arcane and of limited in application for the majority of tapers due to its complexity.  In contrast, Improved PAS has the potential to help many, many more tapers make good tapes.  If the new table and configurations it suggests work well for you please let me know.  I'd love to hear the recordings.  If it isn't working please let me know that too so that I can continue to revise and improve it with your feedback.  I see all this as making PAS as credible a technique as any other standard near-spaced configuration, if not more so for our applications.

I edited a number of my initial posts in this thread to reflect the revision and explain the new table a bit, but I'm more than happy to continue the conversation here and field any questions.  I also removed the old revised table on the first page of the thread which had multiple SRA options as I felt it was overly complex and suspect few were using it compared to the simple table (and upon reviewing it today I found that data was actually for cardioids and I had mislabeled it as being for supercardioids).  However, if anyone found it useful I'm happy to repost it upon checking and relabeling it.   Cheers and make great tapes!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 08:59:42 AM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fobstl

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Wow Gut, this new chart is awesome. Thanks for taking the time to put it together! I look forward to trying the PAS method moving forward.

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Hey, I hope it helps!

A few comments on the previous revised table which I removed, and the new one-
The only thing the older table included which the new one does not was a choice between four different Stereo Recording Angles (SRA's) for each PAS angle.  The four choices provided were SRA = PAS angle -10°, SRA = PAS angle , SRA = PAS angle +10°, and SRA = PAS angle +20°.   Solving for each of these was acknowledgement of what I see as the primary subjective variable of the Improved PAS method and of the Stereo Zoom itself (as mentioned by Michael Williams in the paper)- What is the most appropriate SRA?. I originally included the four choices so that after using Improved PAS a number of times and trying those different variations, folks could home in on their prefered PAS SRA.  My thinking being that after a while we may be able to come to a consensus on which is most prefered.  But taping isn't some rigorous methodical scientific study and I realized it's just not realistic to expect much reporting back of which SRA option folks used along with how they felt about the imaging derived from it, much less reach any general consensus.

So for this table I just solved for SRA = PAS angle +10° for all entries (approximately, with a tolerance of ~ +/- 1°).  This is what Williams suggests as probably most appropriate for orchestra sources, is what I suspect is close to optimal for PA taper recording, is sort of the intent behind pointing-just-outside-of-stacks (although generally not what that really does, which is partly the reason for doing all this), and was the suggested starting point in the old table represented by the highlighted row entries.

A few implications of SRA = PAS angle +10° are-
The microphone spacing for any given PAS angle are slightly narrower than they would be for SRA = PAS angle.  Improved PAS tends to suggest spacings much wider than tapers generally use for traditional PAS, so a slight reduction in suggested setup spacing is probably a good thing in a practical sense.  It's difficult enough setting up wider spacings to begin with, and I suspect the spacings Improved PAS suggests may seem overly wide to many tapers simply because they differ from the traditional norm.  In defense of the wider spacings, I'll stay that most common near-spaced setups (ORTF, DIN, DINa, NOS) etc fall within a range close to what the SZ suggests, and by extension what the Improved PAS method suggests.  What is difficult for some tapers to accept is the basic implication that narrower angles between microphones require wider microphone spacings to compensate, or rather the extent to which that relationship pushes the configuration wider rapidly as the angle grows smaller.

Another interesting implication can be seen by looking at the fig-8 column.  Note that "Standard Blumlein" (fig-8's @ 90° / 0 cm) isn't represented there.  Instead, the coincident fig-8 arrangement occurs at PAS angle = 80°  (and this tends to correlate with my own experience running Blumlein from an audience perspective).  Narrower PAS angles between microphones begin to push the fig-8 microphones further apart, but less so than any other pattern. Since many tapers are constrained to using relatively narrow mic bars, either by the equipment they have on hand or by setup constraints, it may be advantageous to consider using figure-8s in Improved PAS.  Not only do fig-8's tend to sound "natural" (somewhat in a similar way to omnis, not falling into what I sometimes call the "cardioid compromise"), they include a "built-in low-cut" as a result of their bi-directionality which will be appropriate for many indoor AUD situations.  Break out your old LD's which have a switchable 8 position and give it a try.

Back to the SRA = PAS angle +10° thing- Anyone using this table and wishing to experiment further and tweak the method, can do the following (quoting myself from one of the earlier explanatory posts in the thread)-

Tweak it to your liking if you want- Play it back and listen.  If you prefer a more narrow-image presentation with the on-stage and PA sound more tightly grouped in the middle between the speakers, use a slightly narrower microphone spacing next time (which corresponds to a wider SRA squeezing more between the speakers on playback).  If you’d prefer a wider-image presentation, use a wider microphone spacing the next time (narrower SRA stretching things out to the width between speakers).  Once you determine your personal preference you can use this table as a guide to get close then bump the spacing one way or the other as you like.
^
If anyone reading this does that a few times and ends up finding a consistent preference for modifying the suggested spacing in a particular direction, please let me know.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 02:31:03 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Oops, brain fart.  Minor detail but perhaps, but will revise the chart and repost it, removing the ORTF reference.  The non-highlighted box is not close to ORTF (110º / 17cm).. I somehow saw 7cm, thought ORTF and added that last-minute.

[Edit- corrected table now posted.  Apologies to the 18 of you who already viewed/downloaded since last night]
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 01:56:46 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Noah, Stereo Zoom data isn't available for the Schoeps mk22 "open cardioid" pattern specifically.  Yet since it's pattern falls somewhere between cardioid and subcardioid, so should the optimal spacing for a pair of them in PAS.  So with regards to applying the Improved PAS technique to your mk22's, you can at least use the new table to determine the appropriate range of spacings, fine-tuning from there by ear.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline noahbickart

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Noah, Stereo Zoom data isn't available for the Schoeps mk22 "open cardioid" pattern specifically.  Yet since it's pattern falls somewhere between cardioid and subcardioid, so should the optimal spacing for a pair of them in PAS.  So with regards to applying the Improved PAS technique to your mk22's, you can at least use the new table to determine the appropriate range of spacings, fine-tuning from there by ear.


Thanks so much. If only schoeps made a mk22v capsule, my 50cm Bar would be perfect.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline Gutbucket

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I *always* run a pair of mk22 no matter what.

Do you have a standard way of positioning them? I just got a pair of Neumann KM143's, their Wide Cardioid condensers, and have only used them a few times, and all but once, on stage. Very interested in practical experience with the Hypocardioid (!) pattern!!

I try to use the PAS theory with them. I've found that a 35cm spread at 70 degrees tends to work well from the OTS at MSG. FOB, I've used them with a NOS setup with good results. Onstage I've used them at 21cm and 110 degrees.

Basically apply the stereophonic zoom, knowing that you'll always want a little wider spacing than regular cardioids.

I just checked the figures Noah states above against those suggested in new table.  Indeed, the values fall pretty much in line with either the cardioid or subcardioid range.  Might want to try a touch more space between them next time at MSG if easily doable.

Edit- Noah, I just remembered you are using a dedicated-width bar, so probably not easily doable without a new bar.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 03:04:49 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chuck

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I just read this thread. Here is a phone app that may be useful for this application.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.neumann.recordingtools
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Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
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Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
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I just read this thread. Here is a phone app that may be useful for this application.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.neumann.recordingtools

I have used that app, and while it is pretty good for SZ calculations, it doesn't do much else.

Recently I have been using this one instead.  It has been removed from the Play Store for some reason, but is still available elsewhere:
https://apkpure.com/neoduction-tools/com.neoduction.tools
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Offline Gutbucket

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Not to knock these sorts of apps. But a simple screen shot of the Improved PAS table on one's phone (or old-school scrap of paper in the recording bag with the table printed on it) will be faster, easier and more straight-forward as a reference for applying Improved PAS. 

Since these apps are likely to use the same or similar underlying data sets, they will likely generate similar answers given the correct input.  However, in order to find the appropriate solution they will require input of the variables as follows: select polar pattern, select microphone angle (same as PAS angle), select desired SRA (PAS angle +10 degrees).. to have the app generate the required microphone spacing dimension.  That is assuming these apps can work in this direction from that particular set of variables.  If they require inputting the microphone spacing first to derive the SRA, they will require going back and forth to home in on the spacing number in an iterative way.   That's both clunky and requires one to be aware of the correct procedure, whereas one can find the solution from the table quickly at a glance, and also get a better feel for where the solution falls in the continuum of pattern/angle/spacing combinations in case one needs to modify the setup.

My primary intent with Improved PAS is keeping it super-simple and easy for non technically-minded tapers to use.  These apps are certainly useful, but I suspect they will be more useful for finding Stereo Zoom answers that are not PAS-specific.

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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Not to knock these sorts of apps. But a simple screen shot of the Improved PAS table on one's phone (or old-school scrap of paper in the recording bag with the table printed on it) will be faster, easier and more straight-forward as a reference for applying Improved PAS. 

Since these apps are likely to use the same or similar underlying data sets, they will likely generate similar answers given the correct input.  However, in order to find the appropriate solution they will require input of the variables as follows: select polar pattern, select microphone angle (same as PAS angle), select desired SRA (PAS angle +10 degrees).. to have the app generate the required microphone spacing dimension.  That is assuming these apps can work in this direction from that particular set of variables.  If they require inputting the microphone spacing first to derive the SRA, they will require going back and forth to home in on the spacing number in an iterative way.   That's both clunky and requires one to be aware of the correct procedure, whereas one can find the solution from the table quickly at a glance, and also get a better feel for where the solution falls in the continuum of pattern/angle/spacing combinations in case one needs to modify the setup.

My primary intent with Improved PAS is keeping it super-simple and easy for non technically-minded tapers to use.  These apps are certainly useful, but I suspect they will be more useful for finding Stereo Zoom answers that are not PAS-specific.

I'm sure you are correct.  I don't do stack taping; I use these apps for SRA exactly as you say.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Partly speculation as I've not used the apps, but certainly some of that rings true.

Just trying to clarify and don't mean to be pedantic-
Most folks here use the term "stack taping" to refer to making a recording from directly in front of a PA speaker in close proximity to it, such that the PA is effectively close-coupled to the recording position and dominates entire recording for the most part except for audience reaction between songs.  That arguably has more in common with a straight SBD patch than recording from a central audience position using PAS.

I do recognize that you record non-PA amplified material for the most part, which is what I think you intended to convey.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:41:11 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fobstl

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My plan was to aim the mics at the stacks, use the Neumann app to show me what angle I just aimed them in, then go to Gutbucket's chart to show me how far apart to space them.

Offline Gutbucket

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That makes good sense and alternate angle-finding apps will also work.  Determining the PAS angle is the fuzziest step in the process when estimating the angle by the fist-viewed-at-arm's-length method.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline dyneq

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Agreed on KISS for this particular method being a strength. For those on Android, I've been using this Protractor app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.protractor&hl=en_US

I like this app because you can point your camera at the stage from your stand and hit the 'Pause' button which freezes the image. Then, drag the angle lines to wherever you plan to point each mic on each stack to get your angle. I have a printout of the PAS angle/distance chart and use that to look up the distance between mics for my measured angle.

Offline voltronic

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Agreed on KISS for this particular method being a strength. For those on Android, I've been using this Protractor app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.protractor&hl=en_US

I like this app because you can point your camera at the stage from your stand and hit the 'Pause' button which freezes the image. Then, drag the angle lines to wherever you plan to point each mic on each stack to get your angle. I have a printout of the PAS angle/distance chart and use that to look up the distance between mics for my measured angle.

I do a similar thing with AP Bearing Compass:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.appyhand.bearingcompass
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