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Offline spcyrfc

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Question about Hypers / mic placement
« on: April 11, 2008, 02:45:40 AM »
ive record quite often in chatty bar environs.  in these situations, for the most part i record with hypers, 5' or so back from the band 4' or so up in the air.  the recordings still come out pretty chatty.  i have been using a narrower stereo image (vertical 414's coincident).  this does not seem to help much.  sometimes i get the feeling that i would get a better (less chatty) recording in mono.  i havent tried. 

it may be a silly question, but would i get more isolation of the crowd if i moved the stand further back?  (i don't think so, but don't know.)

another... what could i do, placement wise,  to make the recordings less chatty.

thanks,

luke
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 08:15:41 AM »
Even if you close-miked the performers individually and mixed the signals yourself, you would still hear a surprising amount of crowd noise--and then you'd have to add ambience and reverb yourself, or the result would be unlistenable.

When you record from a "semi-distant" position as with all two-mike stereo techniques, for better or worse you get about as much sound from the room as you get from the performers, if not more so (especially in small and/or dry rooms). If the jerks^H^H^H^H^H customers who make the band's performance an economic possibility are talking their fools heads off while drinking and trying to get well laid that night, that's a lot of what you'll pick up.

I think some of the perplexity may come from imagining that "hypercardioid" is a narrow pickup pattern. A cardioid is basically an omni with cancellation in the back--a rather broad pattern; "unidirectional" is a marketing term which completely misrepresents the situation. A hypercardioid is only somewhat less broad than a cardioid plus it has a small but significant rear lobe. Microphone patterns--even those of long-barrel shotgun microphones--are never like flashlights.

On top of all that, your hypercardioid is more of a supercardioid no matter what AKG calls it--but if it were a real hypercardioid it would actually pick up more sound, not less, from the back, so be glad.

--best regards
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 08:19:11 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline T.J.

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 09:15:35 AM »
my $0.02:

if you are only 5' from the stage why not run the card pattern on the 414's? i find i can usually minimize the chatter by using cards over hypers in small bar settings. i think the rear lobe on the hyper pattern was probably the reason i was picking up some of that chatter around/behind my mics. unfortunately sometimes the chatter is unavoidable

Offline Patrick

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 10:35:21 AM »
TJ is right on.  The rear lobe of the hypercardioid pattern is what makes it a "hyper."  Even though it has a narrower front pickup capability doesn't mean that crowd noise from behind or underneath your mics will not end up in your recording.
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Offline spcyrfc

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 11:31:13 AM »
interesting.

i was under the impression from readings on here that the rear lobe of the hyper pattern provided cancellation.  i will give cards a try on monday and see if it makes things any better. and report back
 thanks for the responses +'s to all

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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 11:33:37 AM »
in these situations, for the most part i record with hypers, 5' or so back from the band 4' or so up in the air.

Are your mics on stage or in the crowd?  Seated or standing audience?  If you're in the crowd, maybe try raising the mics to ~6-7'.
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Offline spcyrfc

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 11:44:01 AM »
there is no stage really.  it's a shotgun bar, no pa.  two guitars with their amps, a tenor sax and a bass with his amp.  as for audience, there isn't really much of one.  lots of drinkers and folks trying to get well laid as DSatz said.  probably 1-10 people actually there for the music (and that might even be a hopeful figure). 
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Offline notsofast

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 11:57:51 AM »
This is a good discusion as I am facing a similar enviroment where I record most often. It can be a "boomy" room and the board is in the balcony about 50 ft back and up 20 ft. I have been experimenting with patterns and caps to date.

I started using my hypers (Din. 8 ft up , DFC, 15 ft back) and would concur with what I am hearing on this thread. I did not get rid of the boom but I did get a narrower sound stage and brighter sound. I tried the wide/sub caps (Din-a) and got better staging to my ear and about the same boom but had a richness and pressence that was lacking in the hypers.

I am going out tonight and will use the sub's again and will try NOS just to see what I get. Will certainly share what I learn here. Any thoughts or experiences on what has worked for others with their configs?

A learning noob that appreciates TS's sharing of knowledge,

Tim
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Offline rowjimmy

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 12:28:24 PM »
This is a good discusion as I am facing a similar enviroment where I record most often. It can be a "boomy" room and the board is in the balcony about 50 ft back and up 20 ft. I have been experimenting with patterns and caps to date.

I started using my hypers (Din. 8 ft up , DFC, 15 ft back) and would concur with what I am hearing on this thread. I did not get rid of the boom but I did get a narrower sound stage and brighter sound. I tried the wide/sub caps (Din-a) and got better staging to my ear and about the same boom but had a richness and pressence that was lacking in the hypers.

I am going out tonight and will use the sub's again and will try NOS just to see what I get. Will certainly share what I learn here. Any thoughts or experiences on what has worked for others with their configs?

A learning noob that appreciates TS's sharing of knowledge,

Tim

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Offline notsofast

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 01:05:42 PM »
Great,thanks for the suggestion, I will be grabbing the Dirty Dozen Brass Band tonight and will give it a try. THe only concern about getting closer is it is a dance floor and very vunerable, given the wide open space.  The Mystic has a  3 tiered raised floor with rails seperating them and a balcony, I usually do the first tier. The sound guy Randy suggested to move back 10 feet (second tier) as he fonld the pulls to be better, any thoughts on that?

Could part of my boom may be related to proximity affect? Which moving closer would help mitigate, correct? Or am I over analyzing this?

I can not say enough on how much I am learning and enjoying this hobby, thanks to all.

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline spcyrfc

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 03:45:09 PM »
\ ----- /
   
    *

* is the sound source and t \ / are the 414's.  it seems like if i threw them on a t-bar spaced __ amount (anywhere from a few inches to 12") then angeled them in towards each other, the stereo image would be more dynamic than keeping the coincident and narrowing the angle.

any thoughts on this idea? would it cause phase?
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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 04:12:13 PM »
Great,thanks for the suggestion, I will be grabbing the Dirty Dozen Brass Band tonight and will give it a try. THe only concern about getting closer is it is a dance floor and very vunerable, given the wide open space.  The Mystic has a  3 tiered raised floor with rails seperating them and a balcony, I usually do the first tier. The sound guy Randy suggested to move back 10 feet (second tier) as he fonld the pulls to be better, any thoughts on that?

Could part of my boom may be related to proximity affect? Which moving closer would help mitigate, correct? Or am I over analyzing this?

I can not say enough on how much I am learning and enjoying this hobby, thanks to all.

Tim
One thing to keep in mind is DFC is not always the sweet spot. Try walking around to different spots and distances during the show and give them a listen. I like to do this often and cuff my hands behind my ears and hear which spot sounds best and take notes for next time or set break. Good luck and have you tried stage lip notsofast at the Mystic?
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Offline notsofast

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 04:53:51 PM »
Noob alert....

Quote
have you tried stage lip notsofast at the Mystic?

Stage lip? When you do this are you on the stage or actually using a stand next to and in front of the stage?  A visual learner here.


I will ask the Randy at the Mystic his thoughts and if he has an issue with this.

+ T's for the guidance to all.
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 05:58:27 PM »
Noob alert....

Quote
have you tried stage lip notsofast at the Mystic?

Stage lip? When you do this are you on the stage or actually using a stand next to and in front of the stage?  A visual learner here.


I will ask the Randy at the Mystic his thoughts and if he has an issue with this.

+ T's for the guidance to all.

You would be in front of the stage w/ stand at about 3'-4' depending on the stage height. My stage lip pulls so far have been w/ MS, Blumlein, and Xy but ORTF and Omni's(split or HEaly) are common to. I think w/ Rebirth Brass Band this might work out good but w/ a band like HBRSB you would miss the vocals so it depends the group.
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Offline notsofast

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Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2008, 12:23:40 PM »
Thanks to all for their advice. I just finished my fourth recording with my near gear and keep learning and searching for that perfect pull. I used ORTF last night about 12' feet back, right of center (thanks Jimmyrowtour) and I have the best pull to date.

I will be posting on LMA this week and will share the ORTF (Dirty Dozen Brass Band) and DIN-A (Flowmotion and Poor Man's Whiskey) pulls with everyone and you can give a listen. I really appreciate the help offered here and the advice has always been fruitful.

So, should I worry as I get my technique down, am I more likely to want new gear? Currently my gear slut is just a small child, dreading puberty.

All the best,

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

 

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