Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Question about Hypers / mic placement  (Read 5409 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brian Skalinder

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 18868
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2008, 12:53:05 PM »
any thoughts on this idea? would it cause phase?

I've widened my spacing and narrowed my included angle with good results in the past.  I wouldn't angle them mics towards each other, necessarily, but increasing the spacing and narrowing the included angle may help reduce the impact of the room and crowd.  Check the Stereophonic Zoom link stickied to the top of the forum.  Identify the angle of the soundstage you want to pick up, and pick a mic config (spread / included angle) that gives you an SRA slightly larger than the soundstage.  As you'll see in the SZ paper, you have a broad range of mic configs that will cover the same soundstage angle, i.e. it could be a short mic spread / X included angle, or wider spread with a smaller included angle.  Try an option with wider spread / narrower included angle and see if that helps.
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

Offline Alexandru Petrescu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2008, 04:28:37 PM »
\ ----- /
   
    *

* is the sound source and t \ / are the 414's.  it seems like if i threw them on a t-bar spaced __ amount (anywhere from a few inches to 12") then angeled them in towards each other, the stereo image would be more dynamic than keeping the coincident and narrowing the angle.

any thoughts on this idea? would it cause phase?

That \------/ is no good, I think it should be /---\ (ORTF).  This is what I learned recently, but still have to experiment.  The problem with left being \ is that it will pick up from right as well, and when displayed on speakers  placed \---/ a source on left speaking towards right will sound as coming from right, whereas the video shows him/her on left.

So I think microphones shouldn't point towards each other, rather in opposite direction for better stereo image, especially if coupled with video.  I think that's also why DSatz says that microphones are not like flash lights.

I still have to try this.

Offline rowjimmytour

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3776
  • Gender: Male
    • My LMA bookmarks
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 01:54:01 AM »
Thanks to all for their advice. I just finished my fourth recording with my near gear and keep learning and searching for that perfect pull. I used ORTF last night about 12' feet back, right of center (thanks Jimmyrowtour) and I have the best pull to date.

I will be posting on LMA this week and will share the ORTF (Dirty Dozen Brass Band) and DIN-A (Flowmotion and Poor Man's Whiskey) pulls with everyone and you can give a listen. I really appreciate the help offered here and the advice has always been fruitful.

So, should I worry as I get my technique down, am I more likely to want new gear? Currently my gear slut is just a small child, dreading puberty.

All the best,

Tim
Yeah just wait notsofast when you do hit puberty and that FR2-Le needs a Busman mod to make it even sound sweeter. ;)
http://www.archive.org/bookmarNo
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe and saw

Offline notsofast

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2008, 03:03:16 PM »
Already planning that upgrade...just looking for a break in shows, oh the pain we must endure to feed the beast. rowjimmytour the wife thanks you for all the happiness you have given by encouraging me in this hobby. She is a little worried about the "gear slut" coming out party, with son's college coming up. But alas, Flask needs butter for his bread.

Thinking transparent is the way to go on my Busman mod. I just got my best pull to date with Dirty Dozen Brass Band last Friday. Will be posting my Poorman's Whiskey later this week, can not wait to hear what you get when you record them. I like those TL's. Note to self, down gear slut, down.

Tim
"Please post the show - I don't think it sucked, which is my normal rule for show postings" Dave Alvin

Offline spcyrfc

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 941
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from River City
    • BordersCrossing.net
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2008, 09:18:14 PM »
any thoughts on this idea? would it cause phase?

I've widened my spacing and narrowed my included angle with good results in the past.  I wouldn't angle them mics towards each other, necessarily, but increasing the spacing and narrowing the included angle may help reduce the impact of the room and crowd.  Check the Stereophonic Zoom link stickied to the top of the forum.  Identify the angle of the soundstage you want to pick up, and pick a mic config (spread / included angle) that gives you an SRA slightly larger than the soundstage.  As you'll see in the SZ paper, you have a broad range of mic configs that will cover the same soundstage angle, i.e. it could be a short mic spread / X included angle, or wider spread with a smaller included angle.  Try an option with wider spread / narrower included angle and see if that helps.

nice brian.  thanks.
mkh8040>aerco mp-2>pcmd-50
PFS: AKG 414xls

Record Local

www.borderscrossing.net

Offline jlykos

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4416
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't sweat the technique
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2008, 01:35:33 AM »
Wait a minute.  If you are running hypers at 4' up, there is your problem right there.  As several others have mentioned, the rear lobe of the hypers is picking up the crowd noise and you will definitely pick up a lot of noise at 4', especially if you are only 5' back, where a lot of people probably congregate.  You can try running stage lip for acts without any vocals because the mics will be so far down that they probably won't pick up as much noise.  If the group does have vocals or if you can't run stage lip, move farther back and raise your stand to like 8' - 9' or so in a club so you can get above the crowd.

I would hesitate to mess with the included angle or spacing or anything like that because it has the potential to wreck your soundstage and your imaging.  I like running hypers at 90*, 17cm spacing in a DIN format personally, but with hypers, you are kind of limited in your placement.  You can try running XY, which will give you pinpoint imaging and a very deep soundstage, but it may also sound compressed and like a mono recording.

Good luck with everything!
dpa 4061 > Church Audio 9200 > Sony PCM-D50 (Moon Audio Silver Dragon v3 interconnect)

"I have no views," Mickey Melchiondo, known as Dean Ween, said in a philosophical moment. "I am way too stupid. I have no strong feelings about anything. I'm really into television and the computer. I believe everything I see on TV and read on the Internet."

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 07:08:05 AM »
OK, being the self proclaimed hyper freak that I am, I will give you my thoughts on the subject :) First off, listen to jlykos. Get your stand at at LEAST head height, as long as the stacks arent low to the ground that is. If you can and the stacks are above head height, raise that sucker to about 8-10'. I normally run my hypers a bit higher than most would to cut down on crowd chatter. My stand is usually at 10-12' high, but never higher than that. You will lose a little lowend w/ your mics higher than head height, but Id MUCH RATHER add a small amount of lowend(bass) in post than have chatter ruin an otherwise great recording. Just remember, you cant take out the crowd noise oince its already in the recording. But you can ALWAYS add a small amount of lowend. And 9 times out of 10, the recording is fine the way it was recorded w/ out any mixing/EQ'ing.

Secondly, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO TRY SOMETHING NEW and stray away from the normal mic configs like DINa/DIN/ORTF/NOS/XY/etc. Especially using hypers. I now have MBHO KwonBars(DINa/DIN/NOS) to do my mic configs but I kept my AT 8415 shocks and my vert bar for those occassions where the normal configs just wont cut it. IOf I am in a very odd or weird location, I will just point my hypers at the stacks and just roll with it. You would be shocked at how well those come out alot of teh time. The imaging and soundstage iusnt as screwed up as one might think, at least IMO. W/ hypers dont ever be afraid to just point at the stacks and call it a day. Their directional characteristics will yield good results in most circumstances. I have run my hypers(483) in a crowded, total redneck bar, doing a live demo for my friends. and that was about 8' back from the stage/stacks, and my mics were only 6-7' high because of the bar and the way i had to set up. well, the 8' space between my mics and the stage/stacks was FILLED w/ drunks dancing and mosatly talking to each other directly in front of my mics, and to tell you teh truth, the live demo came out AMAZINGLY BETTER than I ever thought possible. Theyre no shotguns, but liek I said, youd be amazed at how directional they are compared to a card in the same spot IMO.

Anyway, enough rambling, but dont be afraid to try something new and mess w/ the angle AND spacing. If I am in a weird spot and I know there is going to be alot of chatter, I run my hypers w/ a 3-4" spacing MAX, and alter the angle to where the hypers are pointing straight at the stacks, and that yielded decent results to say the least ;D Its like a wider XY, but w/ a lot smaller angle on the mics. My fav config in those types of situations is like I said, about 3-4" MAX spacing and an angle of about 45 degrees, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a TAD less. The spacing helps keep things tight that way, and the angle keeps the chatter minimal and keeps the mics focusing on the sound as much as possible. I  have always HATED XY because of the shitty imaging and soundstage, and have ALWAYS been a fan of opening up the mics and imaging and running configs like DINa/DIN/NOS/ORTF. well, when I run the 3" spacing and 45* angle, its like a wider XY w/ out the shitty imaging that XY has. So try something new sometimes and dont be afraid to lessen your angle and spacing. You may be pleasantly suprised w/ the results :) But 9 out of 10 times, I know the venue/bar layout and I can use my small and convenient KwonBars and run DINa/DIN/NOS. But being a live taper like we are, we have to adapt to each venue on any given night and you must be ready to run ANY config to fit that particular situation. I tried something different and ran my Hypers/NOS for RAQ's NYE show in Knoxville this past year. Here are the links to those 2 shows in Knoxviulle for NYE 2007. On 12/30 I ran Hypers/DINa, and on 12/31, I ran Hypers/NOS from about 3 rows closer than I was on 12/30 if youd like to check them out and see how big of a difference running NOS was and how it really opened up the imaging ALOT more than the 30th. Running the hypers/NOS that nite really opened up the hypersa IMO. They were still VERY FOCUSED towards the stage and music, but at the same time they had this openness that running cards would give you. And the crowd chatter is MINIMAL on both nites and I only ran my stand at about 8-9' high MAX.

RAQ 12/30/2007 [Hypers/DINa]
RAQ 12/31/2007 [Hypers/NOS]

http://www.archive.org/details/raq2007-12-30.ka500.722.flac16

http://www.archive.org/details/raq2007-12-31.ka500.722.flac16

Id love to know what you think of those 2 recordings. If youd like, shoot me a PM and I'll link you to the recordings where Ive done those weird configs. Just remember, EVERY venue is different, and every night is different. A good taper can and will adapt to ANY situation thrown at them and will pull a recording that doesnt suck, altho alot of the time thats out of our hands and in the hands of the soundman.

And one more tip or advice, is just like what the folks above posted, if I were you, Id NEVER point my mics inward towards each other. There could be some phasing issues, and also I would bet the farm that when you did that, you got more bass(lowend) than you wanted, right? pointing your mics inward like that is just not something I have EVER liked or cared for. See, back before ts.com and the oade boards and all the internet knowledge we all have now, like back in 1999 when I got my 481's and the DMIC-20, I would just sit in my basement for days on end and see which positions I liked my mics to be in. Thius was WAYYYYYYY before I even knew what DIN/DINa/ORTF/NOS were. I have always hated XY and loved wider configs like DINa/DIN/NOS/ORTF. Back in those days when Id sit in my basement for days on end, I tried running my mics inward like that while CRANKING my phish recordings, and when I pointed the mics inward liek that, I not only got ALOT of bass(if my memory serves me correctly) and the overall sound and imaging and all that just didnt sound natural. Looking back on it, im sure it was because of phasing issues, but who knows. I have never been one for the technical aspect of our hobby, I just know what I like and how to get a good recording damn near anywhere :) So instead of running them inward like that, try to lessen up your spacing and angle and run the mics outward like you were running DIN/ORTF/etc, just alter the angle and spacing until you find a happy medium :)

So dont ever listen to anyone person. Youre going to have to try things out for yourself and see which you prefer. And always remember this, just like ANYTHING us humans do, the more you play around and get out and record, the better you will be. I have been doing this for over 10 years now, and I didnt start to get really consistent in this game until the last 5 or 6 years. Before you know it, you'll be walking into a venue youve never been to before, and you'll know exactly where youd like to setup the stand, and as soon as you figure that out, you'll decide what config your going to run to bring home the goods. It will eventually be second nature. At least it is to me nowadays :)

Good luck and please let us know your results so others can possibly gain some info and knowledge from your experiences :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline GDfan

  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 960
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 12:00:20 PM »
sagelike info from the Bean. /gasp :P
+T for the good advice
Neumann SKM184 / AKG 568EB > Sound Devices MixPre3
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/CLaPorte

Offline spcyrfc

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 941
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from River City
    • BordersCrossing.net
Re: Question about Hypers / mic placement
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 12:49:13 PM »
in most cases, 4' up would be a bad placement, but in this instance, i think it works.  there is no pa, there is no stage.  Simply 2 guitars with amps behind them, a bass with an amp (barely turned up) and a tenor sax with no amp. 

it would be funny as hell if the musicians walked in and i was set up 8'-10' up.  i might do it just to see the looks on their faces. 

however in other instances when recording some of the few PA shows i do, i will certainly take your advice - get higher, cut out a bit of the lowend, which i need to do in post anyways.'

Last week, i heeded some of the advice, ran cards at a slightly narrower angle and it seemed to cut down a great deal on crowd noise.  sure is fun to try new things.

+t's all around.

mkh8040>aerco mp-2>pcmd-50
PFS: AKG 414xls

Record Local

www.borderscrossing.net

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.098 seconds with 38 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF