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Author Topic: Edirol R-09 input woes  (Read 114636 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2006, 09:30:09 AM »
Carlos...
no offense but we dont seem to be conversing well.

never mind.

read up on the r9 threads and then you'll be on the same page as me w/this talk of these projects.

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2006, 03:53:29 PM »
Carlos...
no offense but we dont seem to be conversing well.

never mind.

read up on the r9 threads and then you'll be on the same page as me w/this talk of these projects.

Nick,

I am surpirised with your comment, because I didn't feel we were not conversing well.

If you think we do not, why don't you guide me a bit to be "on the same page" as you?

My experience as film & video location recordist is quite vast, and I also designed a portable mic preamp to improve on the quality of portable recorders and camcorders. I also rent audio equipment for film & video here in Brazil, where I live, so I see this matter from several angles.

My suggestions are always for trying to help using simpler tools and extracting as much from them as they allow.


Carlos

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2006, 04:04:11 PM »
by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.

we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.

phantom would be nice, but I dont need anything like that out of this personally.  Just a decent A/D stage is all I really care about.

and by additional inputs, I meant better ones than current, like locking plugs and/or various mini jacks. 
still mic/line input though.

Sorry for sounding like a dick (and I did as I read back).  you're just coming to the party late.
:)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 04:08:36 PM by Nick's Picks »

Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2006, 07:00:12 AM »
by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.

we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.
This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?

Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts

Please post.

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2006, 07:11:12 AM »
interesting.
i guess it depends on the room available

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #65 on: November 21, 2006, 07:18:36 AM »
This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?

Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts

As I foresee it, available space might be the main problem. A DC/DC pump will have to be isolated, so as not to induce RFI in the sensitive high-gain stages. I wonder why you think it may have few or no extra parts. A good inductor will have to be part of that circuit too, which is not small either.

Except for adding a plug-in box at the input end of the R-09, holding a 9v battery and DC-DC pump, I can't imagine much more. Sorry.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #66 on: November 21, 2006, 07:28:26 AM »
thats pretty much the way we do things now...indirectly.

but wouldn't it be nice if it had 9v and could power DPAs....which is the "dream" of a few here.
Personally, i'm cool w/the r9.  I think its a kick ass deck and sound damn'd good.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2006, 09:24:36 AM »
I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power.  You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.

Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2006, 01:34:30 AM »
I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power.  You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.
If you know where to look, what to change, maybe we can team up:
I am willing to buy an extra R09, have it modded so we can do some tests.

What power does a DPA need? (xx mA?)

Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2006, 03:44:32 AM »
I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power.  You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.


Is there some way to get a copy of the R-09 circuit? It would help a lot in order to have some ideas on what to improve.

Unfortunately, due to the R-09 size, it's quite likely that the pcb is multilayer and certainly SMD. That makes mods a bit difficult.

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2006, 05:05:35 AM »
This is a very nicely made plug.  It's taken years for Neutrik to start making connectors for 3.5mm.  Unfortunately, the 1.327" body length is too much at almost twice the body-length of the 'safe' molded right-angle plugs I am suggesting.  This Neutrik plug, while having lower 'vertical' height, places the same liability for excessive input jack torque stress as using the usual straight plugs.

Just by the picture I can't quite see how much longer the angled Neutrik connector is compared to yours, but you could offer a ready made cable using your molded connector and a 1/4" stereo jack at the other end for people to plug mics or lines. The rule of never unplugging these short cables should be followed though. 

But I still think the best thing would be to replace the R9 connector, if feasible, with a threaded 3.5m stereo jack, like that used on the Sony FX1 camera. Unfortunately there's notmuch space to replace it with a serious connector, like a mini-XLR for instance.  

I do supply a short (10 inch length) 'minijack extension cable' that relieves the deck's jack of wear and stress damage liability.   And most never unplug the extension from the deck as you suggest.

Internal modifications done to these tiny devices is usually NOT A GOOD IDEA as proposed.  Increased liability for damage is MORE likely than using a more practical externally applied solution to connector shortcomings

by on the same page, i mean so you'll know about prior discussions regarding these topics.

we've discussed how nice it would be if this unit supplied 9v of "plug in power" instead of 5v as it would drive a bunch of better microphones w/o the need for a seperate power supply.
This is also about the R-09?
If so: did anyone check the circuit providing the 5V?

Maybe the 5V generator (DC/DC pump?) can be tuned or replaced for 9V?
One option could be to cut the trace or remove the part that couples the 5V into the mic signal wire and add one chip to generate the 9V.
This requires one small 9V DC/DC pump with few or zero extra parts

Please post.

I again think this approach is not practical or the least trivial.  The internal regulated power inside the deck is 3.3 volts (NOT 5 volts).

And being a systems design engineer I know from experience that attaching anything to the internal supply rails needs be done with utmost consideration as liability to induce all kinds of noise mayhem, and device failure is the most likely outcome if missing a smallest detail.   

Suggest an externally attached mic power module as the most reasonable and practical solution. 

However, if taking things apart and trying out stuff regardless of likely outcome makes you happy, then consider the suggestion of doing it for yourself first, and use for awhile before digging into other's as some owners may not be so accepting of NOT having a reliable fully functioning hacked deck. 

If determined to do the hack, then consider the DPA 4060 series work fine with 5 volt rails and using a simple inductor-less capacitor switching voltage doubling circuit has minimum parts count and easily increases the 3.3 volts to 6.6 volts that'll work fine for powering the DPA capsules.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 05:09:09 AM by guysonic »
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Offline Carlos E. Martinez

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2006, 05:17:34 AM »
Guy,


I am glad people using your cable follow my suggestions.

The only upgrade I would insist on is finding a way to upgrade the existing ones to lockable connectors. The 1/8" threaded jack may be available somewhere and is probably small, as Sony is using it on some wireless mics and on the Sony FX1.

Except for that, the only better thing would be to directly solder a permanent cable going outside, which would invalidade the warranty.

Your suggestion to add an external box, both for mic power or a better quality input (balanced or not), would still be the best way to improve on the R-09 virtues, which are a lot.

I did design and built several units of a mic preamp in the past:

http://www.preciseaudio.com/brochure.html

So I am a bit familiar with designs and mods, but most of all with the field recordings practical needs.

 

Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2006, 11:55:12 AM »
I've looked and it would be very trivial to modify the r09 to supply dpa mic power.  You just have to be motivated to actually do the work or pay someone to do it. But more than likely, you will pay a lot for the r&d if you don't do it yourself.


Is there some way to get a copy of the R-09 circuit? It would help a lot in order to have some ideas on what to improve.

Unfortunately, due to the R-09 size, it's quite likely that the pcb is multilayer and certainly SMD. That makes mods a bit difficult.
Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.
If the 5V generated is just for the mic powering (and no IC on the board uses that voltage...) it can be relatively easily tweaked if the chip allows for higher voltage?

Offline udovdh

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2006, 12:32:36 PM »
Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.

Can you take some?  I don't have a camera with anywhere near that macro capability.

I'm wondering why you guys are considering pump up circuits and regulators given the complexity and noise problems that might result. Why not just use a 6v battery?
It's just a possibility.
I don't have DPA's yet.
If the 5V situation is as I described we could try to increase thevoltage without harm to other parts (chips).
If there's too much noise then the modded R09 is not really usable.
Currently I have an external batterybox but I will have at least looked into the possibility to do away with the box...

And no, I do not have a photo camera.

Offline guysonic

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Re: Edirol R-09 input woes
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2006, 05:13:19 PM »
Maybe we can just look at some highres photo's of the circuitboards inside the R09 to see if we can recognise some DC regulators.

Can you take some?  I don't have a camera with anywhere near that macro capability.

I'm wondering why you guys are considering pump up circuits and regulators given the complexity and noise problems that might result. Why not just use a 6v battery?
It's just a possibility.
I don't have DPA's yet.
If the 5V situation is as I described we could try to increase thevoltage without harm to other parts (chips).
If there's too much noise then the modded R09 is not really usable.
Currently I have an external batterybox but I will have at least looked into the possibility to do away with the box...

And no, I do not have a photo camera.

I do have the circuit schematic of the R-09 and there is NO 5 volts supplied to anything inside the deck, it is 3.3 volts ONLY and a 1.8 volt bias supply.  In other words, there is NO 5 volt supply inside the R-09.  Power for mic volts is ~2.5-3 volts ONLY.  Whomever is giving out this 5 volts information doesn't know what they're talking about.  Raising the voltage of circuitry designed for 3.3 volts usually results in breaking stuff and would be an error in judgement IMO.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

 

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