Topic: Line-In Quality: Sony MZ-RH1 v. Edirol R-09HR

[javertim]

So, like most others here, I typically run my mics into a battery box and then into the line-in of my recorder.  Up until now I have been using the MZ-RH1, but I have recently decided to go solid state.  My eyes are on the Edirol R-09HR. ... But then I listened to some comparisons between the two recorders where external mics were fed into the mic-in and the MZ-RH1 seemed to have significantly less hiss / self-noise.  Granted, I hardly ever use the mic-in, but such a comparison leads me to wonder whether the MZ-RH1's line-in is better than the Edirol's.  Self-noise and hiss is a big factor to me, and I know line-in recordings generally have a lot less of this than mic-in recordings ... But I figured I would ask before I made my final decision.

Thanks! :-)

[nameloc01]

Whatever sounds better to you is your answer. IMO, the Sony stock preamps are among the best sounding..especially considering the size of the decks and the price.

[javertim]

I'm not really interested in the performance of the preamp, just how clean the line-in signal of the Edirol R-09HR is as opposed to that of the MZ-RH1.

[Dede2002]

I'm not really interested in the performance of the preamp, just how clean the line-in signal of the Edirol R-09HR is as opposed to that of the MZ-RH1.

So you are interested in the preamps performances.

[javertim]

Okay, I admit I'm not too well-versed in a lot of this stuff, but I always assumed that there was no preamp for line-in recording.  I'll be using a battery box and connecting it to line-in rather than the mic-in.  School me, please!

[Dede2002]

Okay, I admit I'm not too well-versed in a lot of this stuff, but I always assumed that there was no preamp for line-in recording.  I'll be using a battery box and connecting it to line-in rather than the mic-in.  School me, please!

That´s totally OK. I´m no expert either.
In my experience, the R-09HR preamp is very nice. I've heard awesome things about the Sony preamps. So I also have a question: compared to the R-09HR's, the Sony preamp really make a difference recording loud amplified music?

[rastasean]

The pre-amps on the mini disc recorders have very high sex appeal to a lot of people but its not solid state and you state you are interested in solid state. 

[javertim]

I'm just weary about giving up a moving-parts recorder that DOES sound good only to acquire a solid state recorder that produces lots of hiss on the recordings.

[Dede2002]

I'm just weary about giving up a moving-parts recorder that DOES sound good only to acquire a solid state recorder that produces lots of hiss on the recordings.

No worries. The  R-09HR is a terrific recorder and do not produce lots of hiss.

[javertim]

Thank you to everyone for your guidance and suggestions!

[Dede2002]

Thank you to everyone for your guidance and suggestions!

No problem 

[nameloc01]

Well,if you're planning on taping loud(er) shows,and you get in a good position-FOS, I don't think "hiss" is going to be too much of an issue. Meaning if you don't have to jack the levels up (HIGH) to get a decent signal,you should be fine.

[Arni99]

here 2 samples: recorded italian TV-newschannel at living-room-volume
mics: SP-CMC-8 cardioids
power supply: 12V bbox
line in

MZ-RH1: max. gain 30/30 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056923/RH1-line-in-at-max-gain-30-of-30.wav.html

R09-HR: max. gain 80/80 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056938/R09HR-line-in-at-max-gain-80-of-80.WAV.html

[digifish_music]

here 2 samples: recorded italian TV-newschannel at living-room-volume
mics: SP-CMC-8 cardioids
power supply: 12V bbox
line in

MZ-RH1: max. gain 30/30 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056923/RH1-line-in-at-max-gain-30-of-30.wav.html

R09-HR: max. gain 80/80 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056938/R09HR-line-in-at-max-gain-80-of-80.WAV.html

+T

I grabbed a bit if silence from each recording and had a look in a spectrograph, the HR seems a little quieter. And as I have seen elsewhere, more bass sensitive...a tad more room rumble has been picked up. Listening to the silences back to back, they are very similar.



Is it possible to do the same for the mic preamps? Aim for a -12 dB peak?

digifish

[javertim]

mics: SP-CMC-8 cardioids
power supply: 12V bbox

Wow, that will be my exact set-up when all is said and done.

Thank you, Arni and Digifish! :-)

... And as I have seen elsewhere, more bass sensitive...a tad more room rumble has been picked up.

I guess this means the Edirol has better Frequency response ... ?

[Dede2002]

here 2 samples: recorded italian TV-newschannel at living-room-volume
mics: SP-CMC-8 cardioids
power supply: 12V bbox
line in

MZ-RH1: max. gain 30/30 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056923/RH1-line-in-at-max-gain-30-of-30.wav.html

R09-HR: max. gain 80/80 16bit 44.1kHz
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1056938/R09HR-line-in-at-max-gain-80-of-80.WAV.html

+T

I grabbed a bit if silence from each recording and had a look in a spectrograph, the HR seems a little quieter. And as I have seen elsewhere, more bass sensitive...a tad more room rumble has been picked up. Listening to the silences back to back, they are very similar.



Is it possible to do the same for the mic preamps? Aim for a -12 dB peak?

digifish

Arni and Digifish, +T

[Arni99]

I´ll run the mic-preamp-test aiming -12db peaks in about 9 hours.


-R-09HR: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

-RH1: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

I´ll record 30 seconds speech from TV and 30 seconds silence at the same gain setting, which resulted in -12db peaks for speech.

more to come in about 9 hours....

[digifish_music]

I´ll run the mic-preamp-test aiming -12db peaks in about 9 hours.


-R-09HR: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

-RH1: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

I´ll record 30 seconds speech from TV and 30 seconds silence at the same gain setting, which resulted in -12db peaks for speech.

more to come in about 9 hours....

Sounds good!

[Arni99]

I´ll run the mic-preamp-test aiming -12db peaks in about 9 hours.


-R-09HR: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

-RH1: sp-cmc-8/12V bbox/mic-in/low-sens

I´ll record 30 seconds speech from TV and 30 seconds silence at the same gain setting, which resulted in -12db peaks for speech.

more to come in about 9 hours....

here it comes:
source for both samples: 30 seconds speech from TV and 30 seconds silence in my living room(of course both samples recorded at the same TV-volume setting and the same part of a recorded documenatary from my dvd-recorder)

sample 1: 16bit 44,1kHz
RH1: sp-cmc-8 cardioids=>12V bbox=>mic-in(low-sens setting)=>internal gain 16 of 30 for peaking at -12db
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1058160/spcmc8_RH1_mic_in-low_sens_gain_16-of-30_peak--12db.wav.html


sample 2: 16bit 44,1kHz
R-09HR: sp-cmc-8 cardioids=>12V bbox=>mic-in(low-sens setting)=>internal gain 60 of 80 for peaking at -12db
http://www.file-upload.net/download-1058166/R09HR_mic_in_low_sens_gain-60-of-80_peak--12db.WAV.html


You see I needed more gain on the R-09HR for reaching -12db on the levelmeter as it´s mic-in is less sensitive and doesn´t clip at high SPL compared to the RH1 input when fed with an unattenuated mic´s signal at high SPLs => i.e. amplified rock concert.

RH1 gain was 16 of 30=>53,3% of max. gain.
R-09HR gain was 60 of 80=>75% of max. gain

You can here the clicking of a clock(2m behind the mics) in the silent part.

waiting for digifish´ analysis  .........guess he´s still sleeping right now if he lives on the westcoast .

[digifish_music]

RH1 gain was 16 of 30=>53,3% of max. gain.
R-09HR gain was 60 of 80=>75% of max. gain

You can here the clicking of a clock(2m behind the mics) in the silent part.

waiting for digifish´ analysis  .........guess he´s still sleeping right now if he lives on the westcoast .

Great thanks.

I am on the very very far west coast, Australia the 51st state

Before we continue there is a change in the background hiss on the RH1 1/2 way through the silent part, do you know what changed?



digifish

[Arni99]

RH1 gain was 16 of 30=>53,3% of max. gain.
R-09HR gain was 60 of 80=>75% of max. gain

You can here the clicking of a clock(2m behind the mics) in the silent part.

waiting for digifish´ analysis  .........guess he´s still sleeping right now if he lives on the westcoast .

Great thanks.

I am on the very very far west coast, Australia the 51st state

Before we continue there is a change in the background hiss on the RH1 1/2 way through the silent part, do you know what changed?



digifish

yes it was me touching the gain-knob and changing the gain from 16 to 15.

[digifish_music]

yes it was me touching the gain-knob and changing the gain from 16 to 15.

Busted!

Here's the two compared visually...looks similar...just a note, the R09HR was 4 dB down on the MZ-RH1, so I dropped the gain on it to match the R09HR. That probably explains why some of the background sounds from the TV (triplet of lines running through the middle of the left plot for example) seem to fade out on the left a little.



If you are making the transition from an MZ-RH1 to R09HR I don't think you will be dissapointed.

digifish

[Arni99]

yes it was me touching the gain-knob and changing the gain from 16 to 15.

Busted!

Here's the two compared visually...looks similar...



If you are making the transition from an MZ-RH1 to R09HR I don't think you will be dissapointed.

digifish

THX!
Which spectrograph-software are you using?

[digifish_music]

yes it was me touching the gain-knob and changing the gain from 16 to 15.

Busted!

Here's the two compared visually...looks similar...

If you are making the transition from an MZ-RH1 to R09HR I don't think you will be dissapointed.

digifish

which spectrograph-software are you using?

I am using Edison...

http://www.image-line.com/documents/edison.html

[javertim]

Thank you all so much!

[Arni99]

Seems the R-09HR doesn´t produce more noise than the RH1 using an external mic.
Good news !

[Dede2002]

Seems the R-09HR doesn´t produce more noise than the RH1 using an external mic.
Good news !

Yes, my friend.
Still planning to sell your R-09HR? 

[Arni99]

Seems the R-09HR doesn´t produce more noise than the RH1 using an external mic.
Good news !

Yes, my friend.
Still planning to sell your R-09HR? 

We´ll see what the future brings ..you know it´s not the noise that made me angry .

[Dede2002]

Seems the R-09HR doesn´t produce more noise than the RH1 using an external mic.
Good news !

Yes, my friend.
Still planning to sell your R-09HR? 

We´ll see what the future brings ..you know it´s not the noise that made me angry .

I know, I know. But nothing is perfect in this world 

[javertim]

Seems the R-09HR doesn´t produce more noise than the RH1 using an external mic.
Good news !

And just imagine if the RH1 had an internal mic like the R-09HR ... All that motor noise!