Topic: Deck and Mics for Classical Recording (PCM M10, Sennheiser MKE-2)

[xof]

I am interested in the M10 for classical music. I am a violinist and will use this mostly for solo and chamber music performances. My experience with previous flash recorders (HR-09 and Zoom H2) is that the internal mic quality is not very good. The H2 sounds muddy and the HR-09 sounds tinny.

If I purchase mics based on the Sennheiser MKE-2 capsules eg. MM-HLSO  give me a better result? at $250 they promise more clarity and quality, but I am concerned because the Equivalent noise level in the Senns is pretty high (27db a weighted). Does anyone have any experience recording acoustic music with this deck and mics? The cello sample on Wingfieldaudio.com of the M10 sounds a little covered or filtered to my ears. I am looking for something that I can throw in my violin case so size is also important.

Please advise!

(I posted this in the M10 thread before sorry for the repeat post.)

[Belexes]

If noise level is an issue, give the Church Audio omnis a look in the retail section.  I recorded CA-14 (o) > CA-9100 > M10 last weekend, but it was of a rock concert, so maybe not the sample you are looking for.

[Tedley]

I agree that Church Audio is probably your best bet. With either choice a CA-9100 preamp would be in order for the lower volumes you will be recording. You get a lot of bang for your buck with the Church Audio gear. You should get the M-10 and try out the internal mics before ordering mics. You may like what you hear, but externals may be better yet.

[Ozpeter]

If you found the H2 internals to be muddy, I think you'll find the M10 to be more so (if the recordings are not processed later), though probably with a lower noise level.

The M10 mic inputs are significantly quieter than the H2 mic inputs which are close to unusable.

[xof]

Yeah the H2's internals were very muddy and the external input was a joke. I tried to use an AT822 a few times but the noise far to high to be of any use. I am surprised to hear that you think the M10's mics are even more muddy. I thought they sounded a little more natural than the H2 from the Wingfield samples but then again the M10's mics are omni's which i tend to prefer when recording my classical stuff.

What are the Mic Capsules used in the Church CA-14? I would like to look up their noise specs. Since I am recording at low volumes, I don't want to buy anything without knowing what the inherent noise is.

I have the chance to pic up the MM-HLSO for cheap anyone heard these things? I am guessing that 27db is WAY too noisy for my needs.

Are there any of these pocket decks whose internal mics really sound good?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Are there any of these pocket decks whose internal mics really sound good?

Not really (though maybe the d50).  Everything about them is a compromise - their mounting on the recorder, separation, and pricepoint.   Chris Church modifies the r09 and installs a pair of his mics.  Those probably sound quite good.  I think you'll need to find something external.

Will you be mounting the mics on your music stand for solo recordings?   Where would they be when you record quartets?

[rastasean]

What are the Mic Capsules used in the Church CA-14? I would like to look up their noise specs. Since I am recording at low volumes, I don't want to buy anything without knowing what the inherent noise is.

Ca-14 omni
Distortion less then 0.4% at 114db at 1k
Frequency response 20hz to 20khz +- 5db
Omnidirectional polar pattern
Very low self noise * not yet measured *
Mogami cable 5 feet long ( customs lengths available )
Gold plated Neutrik 3.5 mm stereo jack
Bias power range 4v to 12v
( permanent clothing clips are optional )

Church Audio CA-14 omni mics $129 Sale Buy one pair get the omni half price!

I don't think specs mean a whole hell of a lot but its a good starting point to figure out where they stand and they can be compared to others.

What kind of room will you be recording in? I think you can make it good sounding recording with the ca14 omnis and the m10. I just received the m10 today so I can't claim to know a whole hell lot about it but I do know its small and affordable.

Are there any of these pocket decks whose internal mics really sound good?

Not really (though maybe the d50).  Everything about them is a compromise - their mounting on the recorder, separation, and pricepoint.   Chris Church modifies the r09 and installs a pair of his mics.  Those probably sound quite good.  I think you'll need to find something external.

Will you be mounting the mics on your music stand for solo recordings?   Where would they be when you record quartets?

pocket deck, yes. internal mics, no.

[Ozpeter]

I am surprised to hear that you think the M10's mics are even more muddy. I thought they sounded a little more natural than the H2 from the Wingfield samples but then again the M10's mics are omni's which i tend to prefer when recording my classical stuff.

Nobody (surely??) uses omni mics in the configuration as in the M10.  It gives rise to the imaging problems discussed here and elsewhere, namely, the lower frequencies clump in the centre and the higher frequencies move to the outside, regardless of where the source sounds are located.   This can be fixed to some extent in postproduction, as discussed before.

Personally I've never found the H2 internals to be 'muddy' and I've used the H2 to good effect in a couple of classical recordings - one with the H2 hung above a major concert hall recording a world-famous choir and organ (in parallel to a "proper" recording) and one with the H2 in four-channel mode at the centre of a pro symphony orchestra in an experimental substitution for more conventional spot-mics.  Results were in both cases - imho - remarkable.

See http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=107743.0;wap2 for the original post and samples of the latter recording.

See http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9889 for a post and samples of the former recording.

[pafnuzzi]

Hi

Sony PCM M10 is absolutely the right choice and forget zoom h2. Beside that it sounds like crap it´s unconfortable to use and you cannot use external mics one the mic in because of the incredible high self noise. You will get better results with the internals of the sony also compared to the zoom if you pimp up your recording in post production with more stereo seperation that will clear up the highs also.

Regarding the choice of the right mic check the soundsamples of following mics on www.archive.org: CA-14 omni, SP-CMC-8 (AT943) omni, the sennheiser you wrote about.

Classical music can be recorded good with omnis in the most situations. Unfortunately I don´t have until now  experiences with my new CA-14 omni I received just today recording classical music. But maybe in the middle of april there will be an occasion in vienna state opera to record.

Regards pafnuzzi

[MikeMannZ]

If you found the H2 internals to be muddy, I think you'll find the M10 to be more so (if the recordings are not processed later), though probably with a lower noise level.

The M10 mic inputs are significantly quieter than the H2 mic inputs which are close to unusable.

I think this is a matter of opinion.  I find the h2, h4, and edirol to all be terribly tinny.  I think the omni's of the M10 provide some much need bass response when relying solely on the the unit as a stand alone.  While it tends to not be the greatest stereo separation, to my ear not much post processing is needed.  I'm of the opinion the m10 gives you a more eq'd recording.  I choose the M10 because it gave me the best possible recordings of band rehearsals as a stand alone unit.  Since my purchase I have bought some mini sound professional mics...and WOW!  What a difference!  I think any of these units are going to provide excellent recordings, but if one is going to be super picky then it's time to crack open the cow's hide and spring for some better mics and a battery box.         

[xof]

Bernstein...sounds like a good orchestra. Who is it?

I agree that the results of the H2 are good for what it is. I owned this unit for a year and a half and it sounds descent with the internal mics. The convenience of an integrated package is very alluring. The ability to "point and shoot" is very convenient and that is where the strength of these mini decks lies. For me however, the clarity, instrument separation, sound stage and voicing of the recording with the Senns and the R-44 is vastly superior. The H2's highs seem rolled off, and the recordings sound stage sounds compressed by comparison.

What I want is a unit that is compact enough to carry with my all the time but has the recording quality that approaches a pro setup. I like the M10 for its preamp quality and low noise. I was also looking at the LS-11. The mics to me sound ok.. but I am weary of the built in roll off in the preamp with this unit. I want the convenience of point and shoot without having to fiddle with  phantom power, mic stands, audio interfaces etc etc (i already have setup like this). Is this kind of recording quality possible with lapel mics and plug in power?

Thanks for the link to the archive...how do search to find pulls with these specific mics?

Thanks again for all your help.

[xof]

Oh and as for mic placement and whatnot: Mostly I will record in concert/recital halls. The concerts I play are mostly all recorded professionally but it would be nice to have my own setup and not have to rely on that. I would like to put my recorder/mics in my violin case placed in the first row or two and record discreetly at dress rehearsals. I want immediate gratification so I can listening in the car on the way home if I want. 

I will also use it to recording practice sessions for critical listening and refining. for that, it will sit on a stand or table, nothing too complicated.  Oh and also it would be great to record my orchestra auditions. Obviously stealth is key because this is not allowed out in the open.

[guysonic]

My company's DSM-6S/H model of stereo microphone will directly be powered by the M10's ultra quiet preamplifier, and this configuration is the most compact highest quality system available. 

While the mics are usually headworn in some fashion or mounted on an accurate HRTF baffle for professional recording purposes, they might be pinned to either side of an equipment bag placed as high off the floor as possible for best sound reception using a dark or black colored padded violin instrument case leaning against a music stand comes to mind as a good tactic for positioning the mics in a low profile manner will work OK for making practice tapes.

The complete recording system is pictured below, and many classical recordings done with (headworn or HRTF baffled placement) of this same microphone can be heard at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

This system is also shown in the retail section at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0

[jeffee]

Guysonic, if I used those mic's with my d50, I'm assuming I would use the plug-in power mode.  How much faster would I go through batteries compared to getting around 20 hours with the internals?  Thanks!

[guysonic]

Guysonic, if I used those mic's with my d50, I'm assuming I would use the plug-in power mode.  How much faster would I go through batteries compared to getting around 20 hours with the internals?  Thanks!

No difference in runtime.