Topic: the market of portable recorders...., VS. the traditional rig.

[Nick's Picks]

Hey all....

I'm thinking out-loud....bear w/me.

For the last ...oh, 4 years or so I have come out of the taping quagmire of "bigger and better...gimmie more" in terms of gear.
I've run it all...or nearly all of it.  All the big mic brands, all the Oade modded decks, Gracie preamps and other gear....you name it, I either owned it for a while or had access to it to play with.

Don't get me wrong...a passion for the sport we all share and love.   
But then change hit me....

I no longer have thousands and thousands of dollars in recording gear.  Nor do I have the up-most in hi-rez stereo playback gear (*its still good, but not like it used to be).   
I don't get out and record bands much..., but I do record my own playing regularly...and sometimes it's in venues that we've all taped in before.

My current setup consists of a newly acquired Zoom Q2HD video/audio recorder.   It's got a Mid-Side array for mics, variable gain and 5 or so settings for the mics ranging from "mono" to varying degrees of "width" to adjust with the figure of 8 (or two cards, whatever they use in there to make that side channel, Zoom says its a real f-o'-8).
I had been using the "better" ($100 more expensive) Q3HD for the last year or so.  It had fixed XY mics at 120deg.  Same mics as on their H4n, only in a fixed and wider pattern.   I pulled some absolutely excellent recordings with it....esp. the audio.   Sure, it wasn't perfect.  The high-end was harsh and scratchy...but over-all it produced very listenable recordings with good stable imaging and a nice overall balance in its sound.

My first outing with the Q2 was for Kimock the other night at Tupelos.  So here is a venue with excellent sound, a quiet audience and a nice centered location to tape from (maybe 40' back). 
The recording just plain SMOKES.  It even sounds nice...the high-end has been much improved in this deck...it sounds real, not like a cheap reproduction.

I ran on a stand w/the usual suspects of New England rigs..., AKGs, Schoepps, DPA's..etc etc.  Big rigs, all of them.  And I'm certain that everyone there pulled a sick recording.   There was just no way not to given the environment and quality sound booming at us.

My point..., I spent $160 on this deck.  I pulled sweet audio that I can listen to w/o being annoyed by poor / brittle sound.  I also have a nice 1080p vid to go with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzF9xflN1u4

I'll put the audio up on Archive so you guys can do some listening between the various sources.

I can only wonder how things will be in a few more years....but I like this whole "tiny point and shoot" deck action.  Two AA NiMH batteries (it probably could have run the whole night on just two, but I swapped out between sets to ensure success).  No wires, no cables, no nothin'.  Put it in my pocket and walk out the door.....,
And the results are always pleasing.   

Anyone else out there having exceptional performance with their decks ?
I would guess that the Sony PCM-50 and their high end PCM1 (or whatever its called) must have the best mics in the stable of portable recorders.   The newest Nagra portables are cheap...and interesting.
I see where this is going.  Flying a pair of mics w/outboard gear will be considered "old school"...., and quickly.

[DigiGal]

I see where this is going.  Flying a pair of mics w/outboard gear will be considered "old school"...., and quickly.

Na, forgetaboutit 

[Nick's Picks]

https://archive.org/details/skb2013-02-21.nickspicks

spin through some of the sources..., certainly not the best ....
but you gatta respect this from $160 rig.

[Ozpeter]

I watched a bit of the vid, thanks for sharing.  Very acceptable video and audio quality.  However, in this situation, as far as the music goes you're recording the essentially mono sound of the PA system, (of course there are audience noises from all around as well) and you are totally at the mercy of the quality of the PA and the expertise of whoever set it up and balanced it.  Whether it's worth investing a great deal of money to faithfully record the possibly dodgy sound of a PA I'm not sure.  (Not saying there's anything wrong with this one in particular, apart from the usual flat mono sound - I can't believe it's not possible for sound systems to be set up more imaginatively than that).

If recording unamplified acoustic music, then you might be justified in going to greater lengths.  But indeed, what you get from these tiny inexpensive devices these days is remarkable.

[F.O.Bean]

I feel ya nick. I run schoeps AND CA14 mics and I can honestly say, the schoeps DEF sound better, but not 3k better!!!

That said, I will NEVER sell my schoeps for just the cheaper mics

[LikeASong]

I definitely agree with you, Nick. DEFINITELY. ANd I obviously know how good your Zoom recorder sounds since I've owned it. And I can only agree agree agree with everything you said. Of course a $5000-worth gear will [almost] always sound better than a $200 portable gizmo, BUT the thing is the compromise between $$$ spent, effort paid, time invested in gear care and post-producing, and the quality of the final product. And there, even if the $5000 gear is going to win the quality factor by far, I doubt it's worth losing by far in the other 3.

Of course a lot of experienced tapers will say this is all bullshit, but I speak from the perspective of the rather unexperienced taper who arrived here with no pre-concibed ideas (aka no "this will sound like crap because it's XXX brand" or "this will sound great because it's YYY" stuff, etc) and has learnt everything from reading everyone else and his own experience.

[Nick's Picks]

you got it!
I'm trusting my ears.  If anything, i've gone backwards w/my rig over the last few years and am more pleased now than I ever have been.

my "big rig" ... ?
still team M-Audio.  Pulsar IIs > firewire610 > MT
Modest....., well under a grand.   The Q2 sounds 90% as good on its own compared.

[Todd R]

I definitely agree with you, Nick. DEFINITELY. ANd I obviously know how good your Zoom recorder sounds since I've owned it. And I can only agree agree agree with everything you said. Of course a $5000-worth gear will [almost] always sound better than a $200 portable gizmo, BUT the thing is the compromise between $$$ spent, effort paid, time invested in gear care and post-producing, and the quality of the final product. And there, even if the $5000 gear is going to win the quality factor by far, I doubt it's worth losing by far in the other 3.

Of course a lot of experienced tapers will say this is all bullshit, but I speak from the perspective of the rather unexperienced taper who arrived here with no pre-concibed ideas (aka no "this will sound like crap because it's XXX brand" or "this will sound great because it's YYY" stuff, etc) and has learnt everything from reading everyone else and his own experience.

I think I come to the opposite conclusion to what I think you're getting at.  I agree the quality of recordings from less expensive gear can be quite impressive, especially if you spend time with post-processing and get the most out of the sound of your gear.  But to me, if I'm going to spend the time and effort getting out and recording the show, then getting home and working on post-processing and mastering and final tracking and distribution, I'd prefer starting with the best sound from my recording.  Subject to how much I'm willing to put towards gear, my own trade-offs with quality and size/convenience, my motivation to get into the best spot to record, etc.   

I've compared my Audix m1290 > Naiant LB > Sony M10 rig (that put together used is like $800) vs my DPA 4022 > Aerco MP2 SD USBPre2 > Sony D50 (which is like 5x the price) and it sounds very (very) good to my ears.  But the DPA rig sounds better, and if I'm going to go to all the effort with everything, to me I feel better that I'm less likely to be wishing 10 years down the road that I started off with better gear (which to some extent I am going through now as I transfer 10-12 year old DATs).  I'm fortunate though to be at a point in my life that I'm able to put the amount of money I do towards my gear.  If I wasn't, I'd have no problem at all with my $800 rig, since it sounds quite good to me.

Nick -- not to say I don't agree with where you're coming from, as the quality of sound you can get these days out of inexpensive gear is impressive.  But I won't agree that flying mics with outboard gear will become old school anytime soon. If only because for what we do, it really helps to have your mics flying 10' in the air, and that is a difficult place to run a recorder with built-in mics from.

[acidjack]

I assume that being an actual taper, Nick, you probably mounted the Q2 competently/correctly and with the proper settings.  The one time I used onboard mics on a deck like this, it turned out "fine" - not as good as that recording, but fine.  But like you, I mounted it properly.  I recorded recently with a guy who put his D50 up on my stand. I bet his recording is also pretty good.  But right there, that makes these recordings fairly unusual compared to most people who want to just "point and shoot" these devices from a table, a shirt pocket, etc. with no thought or care into what they're doing. 

For most of what we do, besides that the outboard rigs have better sound quality, I think it's actually much more convenient to use a traditional rig than a device whose lights and meters and controls are up on a stand out of my reach for the whole show. 

These devices certainly outperform cheaper options of yesteryear. I also think  the overall trend toward downsizing will continue.  For example, outboard pres, and even more so A/Ds, are headed the way of the dinosaur, at least around here (except for tinyboxes going into M10s..)

[Nick's Picks]

Diminishing returns...alive and well.
The Gizmo's get better and better....and stay cheap.

I'll never argue that a nice set of mics>pre>deck is less than these consumer devices....  But they (the devices) improve more rapidly than the rest of the market of traditional taper gear.   
Here is a downside..., it does take the "art of taping" away.   Fixed mics can't really F'up.  As long as its pointed in the right direction, its going to work out.  Having a well thought out mounting situation for the caps makes all the difference.  There is the art part w/a pair of mics and various caps..etc.  You dont get that w/a single piece...though you do get some tweaks.

For me, it's a logical step from my stereo-mic fixation that I spent bazillions on back when I had the bug.

[Nick's Picks]

I assume that being an actual taper, Nick, you probably mounted the Q2 competently/correctly and with the proper settings. 

Actually...
I just tore it out of the box and threw it on the stand w/minimal tweaking.  I didn't even know there was a variable gain dial on the side until I took it down and really inspected it between sets.  The first set was very low gain, and I added in post.  2nd set is just straight raw. 
Just like any rig, you set these up right and they'll do the best they can do.

[runonce]

However, in this situation, as far as the music goes you're recording the essentially mono sound of the PA system, (of course there are audience noises from all around as well) and you are totally at the mercy of the quality of the PA and the expertise of whoever set it up and balanced it. 

Isn't this true - regardless of the rig you are running...?

[Nick's Picks]

90% of the time, yes.  we spend big bucks to record mono PAs in shitty nightclubs.

[cybergaloot]

Do not, DO NOT, buy an Alesis VideoTrack. I got one for $20 and it was $15 overpriced. Horrible video. Mediocre sound at best.

[SmokinJoe]

I think when the room is great and the crowd is cooperative, getting a good pull is like shootin' fish in a barrel, and the point and shoot rig is great.  If we were in the OTS at a boomy room, that's when the bigger, more directional gear will make a bigger difference. BUT, then again, when you have big gear you end up in the OTS.  If you have something small, you can get out of the OTS.  If you have a nice quiet sit-down show at a nice theatre, you might be able sit in the sweet spot with that thing in your shirt pocket and beat the rigs back in the OTS.