Topic: the market of portable recorders...., VS. the traditional rig.

[colinw]

This discussion reminds me of similar ones related to photography where people argue that a $200 point and shoot can perform the same as a full SLR with different lenses, etc. Obviously in some situations the point and shoot will perform well enough for the majority of people who want it (snapshots, etc). Telephoto, zoom and macro photography is better served by a full SLR.
I think with audio, if you haven't heard anything other than an internal mic recording you will think it sounds great, but if you hear a great recording with great equipment it blows the internals away. That being said, I am not totally down on the internal mic recordings in some situations. I have heard some great recordings done with them, and I have also heard some horrible recordings with some very nice rigs.

I think it comes down to what you prefer. Lugging around an expensive and complex rig is a big pain most of the time, but usually pays off with a better recording. For simple convenience a small handheld is great. I only have a modest rig with my open taping being a set of Busman BSC1 which I think sound much better than what I pull with the Church Audio CA14s I have in most situations. The CA14 omnis seems to sound just as good as the BSC1 omnis to my ear though. The cards and hypers of the BSC set sound better than the CA14 cards. I couldn't see spending 2-3k  more on open mics unless they could ensure me dramatically better sound than the Busmans or CA mics.

[Gutbucket]

Telephoto, zoom and macro photography..

This is an apt analogy.  Regardless of the quality of any all-in-one-dohicky, it constrains the user to the configuration it comes with.  It might be a fantastic Leica camera with a fixed 50mm lens, or a great all in one recorder with one, maybe two possible microphone configurations.  Both devices can produce excellent results when that particular configuration is appropriate.  Yet no all in one recorder can do configs with a spacing of more than a couple inches.

[tim in jersey]

I think when the room is great and the crowd is cooperative, getting a good pull is like shootin' fish in a barrel, and the point and shoot rig is great.  If we were in the OTS at a boomy room, that's when the bigger, more directional gear will make a bigger difference. BUT, then again, when you have big gear you end up in the OTS.  If you have something small, you can get out of the OTS.  If you have a nice quiet sit-down show at a nice theatre, you might be able sit in the sweet spot with that thing in your shirt pocket and beat the rigs back in the OTS.

Not all of the "big rigs" are back in the OTS... 

[page]

we spend big bucks to record mono PAs in shitty nightclubs.

This.

Now, there isn't anything wrong with doing that. Everyone has a hobby in which they sink money in. Some folks fish, some do rock climbing, but we do concert recordings. I think one difference is; some fish with a rod down by the pond and they like that. They don't have a reason to get a better rod, travel to more unique fishing holes, or go ocean fishing. That's fine, but some do, and they are perfectly willing to burn a ton of cash to do so.

Taping is a hobby like fishing. You can get 80% of the way there by showing up and puting stuff up in the right spot. But better bait will generally out-catch a hook a cheap pole. They both catch fish, but one's much more likely to get a bigger fish or more fish more often. I think taping is the same way; a more expensive rig will get you a better recording, but how much better is the question. It's a hobby that you can sink money into.

I've gotten into a lot of non-chatty-bar taping lately, and in those sort of environments, I find the more expensive rigs pays off in a series of ways (more professional appearance, maximized recordings to impress artists/venues with, etc). So there is still a reason for me to chase that sound (it's my personal money sink at any rate), but for standing in a room with a bar and drunken yahoos, I've started to question the rationale of me doing so...

That we have equipment that can be procured at a fraction of the price and get us the majority of the way to where we want to go is the real story here.

[Gutbucket]

That.

[Nick's Picks]

[/quote]

That we have equipment that can be procured at a fraction of the price and get us the majority of the way to where we want to go is the real story here.
[/quote]


Bingo.
Even 5 years ago, you couldn't get a handheld deck that could do anything other than a small room  / band rehearsal type of thing...and even that was "eh".   I pulled some great little rehearsal recordings with my R09 back in the day, but as good as those were, this cheap ass Zoom shreds it.

As far as mic spacing..., that's not an issue for me.   I'm a big coincident fan, so spacing is moot to me.

[tgakidis]

I've gotten into a lot of non-chatty-bar taping lately, and in those sort of environments, I find the more expensive rigs pays off in a series of ways (more professional appearance, maximized recordings to impress artists/venues with, etc). So there is still a reason for me to chase that sound (it's my personal money sink at any rate), but for standing in a room with a bar and drunken yahoos, I've started to question the rationale of me doing so...

I'm with you here page.  I do alot of stage-lip/on-stage taping in quite clubs where I am using spot mics for stage presence.  This is where the full rig is a must to create a sence of really being there and not jut recording a mono PA. 

[allan]

back to the point and shoot camera analogy... as Nikon now has the small Nikon 1 with changeable 'pancake' lenses, it makes me wonder if someone could create or mod some of these XY type SD recorders to instead of having fixed factory caps, have changeable caps from higher end manufacturers, say Neumann or even Nak caps could be attached to the top of these, keeping the super portability and easy setup, yet improving the sound quality dramatically. Probably not easily doable, but it would be pretty cool.

[Nick's Picks]

nice plan !

I've thought similar things in the past....
a deck like the Tascam D100, re-route the phantom from the XLRs to the mics up top (or where they would have been)..., gut the top mics and replace a mini 5pin XLR that branches to 2x XLR females

[Javier Cinakowski]

I too have gone backwards in price and size of gear.  I dont even have a gear bag any more. I clamp my m10 to my stand and carry the rig into the show and out already hooked up...   My at853s perform just about as well as anything I have used before.  Sure i sometimes miss the fat sound of my at4050s/V2 rig, but for most pa recordings my 853 actually sound better. It would be a different story if i were recording acoustic music.

I guess my point is my 853->m10 rig gives me almost the convenience of an all-in-one, but with the ability to run high on a stand, multiple configs/patterns(omni through shotgun) and stealth ability if needed.  Also with my rycote lyre mounts a very professional appearance...

If zooms next gen of audio/video recorder has improved battery life and pip mic input that compares well to the m10, im in....

[F.O.Bean]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160937.msg2024815#new

[borjam]

back to the point and shoot camera analogy... as Nikon now has the small Nikon 1 with changeable 'pancake' lenses, it makes me wonder if someone could create or mod some of these XY type SD recorders to instead of having fixed factory caps, have changeable caps from higher end manufacturers, say Neumann or even Nak caps could be attached to the top of these, keeping the super portability and easy setup, yet improving the sound quality dramatically. Probably not easily doable, but it would be pretty cool.

There is much more than just the caps. The electronics behind them (especially in the case of condensers) are critical as well.

By the way, Nagra follows an approach similar to what you suggest. They have a small hand-held recorder, the http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/index.php, Nagra SD, that accepts different microphone attachments. And I guess it wouldn't be that hard to design third party microphone modules.

This discussion reminds me of similar ones related to photography where people argue that a $200 point and shoot can perform the same as a full SLR with different lenses, etc. Obviously in some situations the point and shoot will perform well enough for the majority of people who want it (snapshots, etc). Telephoto, zoom and macro photography is better served by a full SLR.
I think with audio, if you haven't heard anything other than an internal mic recording you will think it sounds great, but if you hear a great recording with great equipment it blows the internals away. That being said, I am not totally down on the internal mic recordings in some situations. I have heard some great recordings done with them, and I have also heard some horrible recordings with some very nice rigs.

Regarding the "quality" of equipment there are two different variables you need to consider. One is, of course, actual quality. For a photo camera it's the optical quality of the lenses, reliability of the shutter and other mechanisms, the sensor in the case of a digital camera...

The other important attribute is flexibility. A reflex camera (or one of the so-called EVILs) certainly gives you the flexibility of using many different lenses and other accesories impractical with more compact cameras.

That said, depending on the situation, a compact camera with great lenses (my beloved Minox 35 comes to mind) can give you amazing results in the right situation, provided you know how to work out its limitations and apply its strengths in your favor.

The same happens with recording gear. In my case, for example, my main photo camera now is a Lumix LX2. Small enough to fit in a large pocket, it has excellent optics, and I don't feel like I'm losing much compared to a reflex. I've shot all kind of difficult photos with it in low light, without flash, and the thing works. Regarding audio, well, I know I can carry just the PMD661 and some mikes, or, in case I want outstanding preamps, carry the ULN-2 and hook it with S/PDIF.

So, know your tools and experiment a lot Sometimes you can be blown away by the results you can achieve!

[cashandkerouac]

location, location, location.  i'd rather record with "average" equipment in a superb location than record with top of the line equipment in a bad location. 

i  really appreciate better equipment and am willing to plop down the coin for really good stuff, but means and methods (in my opinion) are much more important than the gear in your bag.
   

[F.O.Bean]

location, location, location.  i'd rather record with "average" equipment in a superb location than record with top of the line equipment in a bad location. 

i  really appreciate better equipment and am willing to plop down the coin for really good stuff, but means and methods (in my opinion) are much more important than the gear in your bag.
   

100% agreed!

Check this mk41 vs. ca14 compo as a great example. both mics were same height same stand, with the ca14s being around 6" behind the mk41 on a vark bar

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=160937.msg2024815#new