Topic: JB3 versus DAT recorders

[moby78]

Hi, could anybody tell me, which stuff is better? JB3 or DAT recorders? I haven´t heard any show taped by JB3, so I don´t know ...

[Nick Graham]

I hate to be "that guy" and tell you to use the search function, but this topic has probably been covered more than any other in the last 2 years.

But, to answer your question - there are obvious pros and cons for both. As for sound quality, which I think was the basis for your question, if your recording using either device's digital input (DAT - S/PDIF, JB3 - Optical), it should make no difference at all, as it's all just 1s and 0s. If you're planning on going analog in to either, it's debatable - let your ears decide.

[spyder9]

Go here, this should help.  The Archive can answer a ton of questions.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=29057.0

[Brian Skalinder]

Ahhh...a newb.  Where to begin?  Why...the Where To Begin forum, of course!

[moby78]

Ok ...However, this question is most important for me as a taper ... I need a small portable stuff not to have problems with security at entrance, so is JB3 so small that I could put it into my pants not to be caught by security due to it?

[Evil Taper]

It's the size of a discman cd player.  Many many people crotch these and don't get busted, I've done it plenty of times.  Great piece of gear for stealth taping because theres no tapes or discs to worry about switching or filling up.

[moby78]

And how much does it cost? I´d like to have a cheaper equipment, cause I spent a lot of money for two MD recorders and the results are good, but not always. So, how much do you think is a new and used JB3?

[moby78]

...and do the JB3 recordings really sound as good as the DAT ones?

[jeromejello]

it is all digital.... jb3 can record .wav @ 16bit / 48 which is on par with dat.

obviously the jb3 can do adc and gain, but you can get another box for that, or not, depending on your budget and stealth desires.

plan on about 200 for a good used 20gb jb3... but you may find it for less.

faq u

[Ray76]

Ahhh...a newb.  Where to begin?  Why...the Where To Begin forum, of course!

LMAO Brian+T

[Brian Skalinder]

...and do the JB3 recordings really sound as good as the DAT ones?

Digital-in, they sound identical.  Analog-in, some think the JB3 sounds as good as DAT, others do not.  You should decide for yourself:  I've hosted an analog-in comp before of the NJB3 v Sony D100, and since this question pops up often enough I've now posted a couple snippets in TS Reference.

Info
Source 1
Source 2

After listening, PM me to indicate which source you prefer and find out which source is JB3 and which is DAT.

And how much does it cost?

They're not available new, unless you luck out on EBay.  Check the Yard Sale forum for an indication of the going price.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

And how much does it cost? I´d like to have a cheaper equipment, cause I spent a lot of money for two MD recorders and the results are good, but not always. So, how much do you think is a new and used JB3?

If you're looking to improve your recordings, the capture device isn't where I'd start for improvement.

Take into account these factors:

- Size
- Ease of use (ESP if you're stealthing)
- Reliability/Repair Costs
- Record lengths
- Media cost (DAT not applicable for the JB3)
- internal A/D (unless you're using an external A/D)

[Kevin]

my perfonal preference is the DAT an M1 is even smaller than the JB3 yet a little more expensive.  depending on your preamp or A/D you might to get some sort of converter box (ex. the Hosa or any other optical to coax converter) but if you have an optical out than this will not be a problem.  The 722 or 744 would be ideal 

[Evil Taper]

If you want better recordings get better mics.  Don't blame the recorder because the tape doesn't sound spectacular, it's more than likely the mics or what's between the mics and the recorder.  The JB3 gets lower initial levels than a dat is capable of because the ADC is a different voltage or something like that.  That's my ONLY complaint about the JB3.  There's no tapes/discs to buy, 6 hours record time on 2 rechargeable batteries, bit perfect transfers via usb/firewire to your pc.  The ADC is the only lame thing about the JB3 and of course it's size to some, but that's up to you.

[moby78]

If you want better recordings get better mics.  Don't blame the recorder because the tape doesn't sound spectacular, it's more than likely the mics or what's between the mics and the recorder.  The JB3 gets lower initial levels than a dat is capable of because the ADC is a different voltage or something like that.  That's my ONLY complaint about the JB3.  There's no tapes/discs to buy, 6 hours record time on 2 rechargeable batteries, bit perfect transfers via usb/firewire to your pc.  The ADC is the only lame thing about the JB3 and of course it's size to some, but that's up to you.

A friend of mine that usually makes  very good recordings told me to buy a better mic(s) first, as well. I use Sony ECM 719 mic, which is good, but not the best ...

[Evil Taper]

Wow, the recorder you're using is the last thing that you should be concerned about right now.  Spend your money on some decent mics before you even think of getting a new recorder.  Sony ECM mics are probably the absolute worts mics you can use for recording concerts so get rid of those (that cuz it's most likely a single point stereo mic anyway) and at least invest in a pair of Sound Professionals mics.  Look at either the sp-cmc-8, sp-cmc-4 or sp-cmc-2 mics at soundprofessionals.com and buy something in that quality range.  Those mics sound FAR better than that thing you have now so upgrade.  You'll probably also have to buy a battery box with the mics so keep that in mind.  The mics are far more important than the recorder, anyone here will tell you that.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

Wow, the recorder you're using is the last thing that you should be concerned about right now.  Spend your money on some decent mics before you even think of getting a new recorder.  Sony ECM mics are probably the absolute worts mics you can use for recording concerts so get rid of those (that cuz it's most likely a single point stereo mic anyway) and at least invest in a pair of Sound Professionals mics.  Look at either the sp-cmc-8, sp-cmc-4 or sp-cmc-2 mics at soundprofessionals.com and buy something in that quality range.  Those mics sound FAR better than that thing you have now so upgrade.  You'll probably also have to buy a battery box with the mics so keep that in mind.  The mics are far more important than the recorder, anyone here will tell you that.

I'd stay away from Sound Professional's mics and go with one of Core-Sounds mics.

The mics are far more important than the recorder, anyone here will tell you that.

Yep, and Sound-Pro isn't the way to go, unless you're a fan of bass distortion.

[Ray76]

Wow, the recorder you're using is the last thing that you should be concerned about right now.  Spend your money on some decent mics before you even think of getting a new recorder.  Sony ECM mics are probably the absolute worts mics you can use for recording concerts so get rid of those (that cuz it's most likely a single point stereo mic anyway) and at least invest in a pair of Sound Professionals mics.  Look at either the sp-cmc-8, sp-cmc-4 or sp-cmc-2 mics at soundprofessionals.com and buy something in that quality range.  Those mics sound FAR better than that thing you have now so upgrade.  You'll probably also have to buy a battery box with the mics so keep that in mind.  The mics are far more important than the recorder, anyone here will tell you that.

And if you want good customer service, core sounds isnt the way to go.

Len is not the nicest guy .

Ray
I'd stay away from Sound Professional's mics and go with one of Core-Sounds mics.

The mics are far more important than the recorder, anyone here will tell you that.

Yep, and Sound-Pro isn't the way to go, unless you're a fan of bass distortion.

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

And if you want good customer service, core sounds isnt the way to go.

Len is not the nicest guy .

Ray

True, but he's not going to be plugged into my deck...

Sure Sound-Pro is nice, but all that's good for is consoling you after their mics farted out every kick drum note.

I'd check E-Bay, I've seen Core-Sound mics on there in the US and Euro go for around $100-$120 US.

[moby78]

And if you want good customer service, core sounds isnt the way to go.

Len is not the nicest guy .

Ray

True, but he's not going to be plugged into my deck...

Sure Sound-Pro is nice, but all that's good for is consoling you after their mics farted out every kick drum note.

I'd check E-Bay, I've seen Core-Sound mics on there in the US and Euro go for around $100-$120 US.

Could you give me a link to that e-bay site and some good advice how to buy there? I haven´t bought anything at e-bay yet. Thanks.

[Ray76]

And if you want good customer service, core sounds isnt the way to go.

Len is not the nicest guy .

Ray

True, but he's not going to be plugged into my deck...

Sure Sound-Pro is nice, but all that's good for is consoling you after their mics farted out every kick drum note.

I'd check E-Bay, I've seen Core-Sound mics on there in the US and Euro go for around $100-$120 US.

Could you give me a link to that e-bay site and some good advice how to buy there? I haven´t bought anything at e-bay yet. Thanks.

www.ebay.com

LMAO

[Ray76]

And if you want good customer service, core sounds isnt the way to go.

Len is not the nicest guy .

Ray

True, but he's not going to be plugged into my deck...

Sure Sound-Pro is nice, but all that's good for is consoling you after their mics farted out every kick drum note.

I'd check E-Bay, I've seen Core-Sound mics on there in the US and Euro go for around $100-$120 US.

true. THe best way to run those mics is with phantom ive heard.
Course, im movin beyond them , ima be blingin soon.

Ray

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, plenty of people are very happy with their Sound Pro mics.  As Ray indicated, best bet is to run them with phantom power to avoid overloading problems.  Or if you can afford it, get the actual Audio Technica AT853Rx instead of the SP flavor. 

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

FWIW, plenty of people are very happy with their Sound Pro mics.  As Ray indicated, best bet is to run them with phantom power to avoid overloading problems.  Or if you can afford it, get the actual Audio Technica AT853Rx instead of the SP flavor. 

It'll help your chances, but you can't avoid the problem. 

For the amount that are very happy with them, I'd venture to guess the amount that were not very happy with them and have moved on to different mics is much larger.

I could give you plenty of examples of Sound Pro mics that were run WITH their SP phantom power and still have distortion issues, even WITH Sound Pro's phantom power supply.  I'm not talking stack tapes, extreme SPL situations, just your average club setting.  If you want to take from the back, only tape non-amplified shows, they're great in that reguard.

CSB and CSC mics are cheaper than Sound Pro mics, just as compact, I haven't heard of anyone with a distortion problem as of yet...

So what is your opinion of Core-Sound mics?
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=33624.msg428899#msg428899

[Ray76]

FWIW, plenty of people are very happy with their Sound Pro mics.  As Ray indicated, best bet is to run them with phantom power to avoid overloading problems.  Or if you can afford it, get the actual Audio Technica AT853Rx instead of the SP flavor. 

It'll help your chances, but you can't avoid the problem. 

For the amount that are very happy with them, I'd venture to guess the amount that were not very happy with them and have moved on to different mics is much larger.

I could give you plenty of examples of Sound Pro mics that were run WITH their SP phantom power and still have distortion issues, even WITH Sound Pro's phantom power supply.  I'm not talking stack tapes, extreme SPL situations, just your average club setting.  If you want to take from the back, only tape non-amplified shows, they're great in that reguard.

CSB and CSC mics are cheaper than Sound Pro mics, just as compact, I haven't heard of anyone with a distortion problem as of yet...

So what is your opinion of Core-Sound mics?
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=33624.msg428899#msg428899

I havent heard about those folks, but hell I learn somehting new ever day.
Ray

[Ray76]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=44551.new#new

[Brian Skalinder]

So what is your opinion of Core-Sound mics?

I don't care at all for their low cost binaurals, regular binaurals, or stealthy cardioids - I don't think I've heard a single recording using those mics that I enjoy.  I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should.  On the other hand, I've encountered mixed results with the Sound Pro version of the AT mics - some I've enjoyed, others I have not.  And I've heard plenty of Audio Technica AT853Rx recordings I enjoy.

Core-Sound's High End Binaurals sound great.  But I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should when one may purchase a pair of DPA 406x + MPS battery box / MPA preamp and achieve the same or better results, all the while working with an organization that provides quality customer service before, during, and after the completion of the sales cycle.

[Ray76]

So what is your opinion of Core-Sound mics?

I don't care at all for their low cost binaurals, regular binaurals, or stealthy cardioids - I don't think I've heard a single recording using those mics that I enjoy.  I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should.  On the other hand, I've encountered mixed results with the Sound Pro version of the AT mics - some I've enjoyed, others I have not.  And I've heard plenty of Audio Technica AT853Rx recordings I enjoy.

Core-Sound's High End Binaurals sound great.  But I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should when one may purchase a pair of DPA 406x + MPS battery box / MPA preamp and achieve the same or better results, all the while working with an organization that provides quality customer service before, during, and after the completion of the sales cycle.

Ding ding!
My limitations with verbalizing the English language(though I was a lit minor, figure that one out)
keep me from writing the very thoughts you relayed above. +T Brian.
Quit stealing my thoughts.
 

[Genghis Cougar Mellen Khan]

So what is your opinion of Core-Sound mics?

I don't care at all for their low cost binaurals, regular binaurals, or stealthy cardioids - I don't think I've heard a single recording using those mics that I enjoy.  I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should.  On the other hand, I've encountered mixed results with the Sound Pro version of the AT mics - some I've enjoyed, others I have not.  And I've heard plenty of Audio Technica AT853Rx recordings I enjoy.

Core-Sound's High End Binaurals sound great.  But I would never buy them, use them, or suggest that anyone else should when one may purchase a pair of DPA 406x + MPS battery box / MPA preamp and achieve the same or better results, all the while working with an organization that provides quality customer service before, during, and after the completion of the sales cycle.

Agreed on the low-cost binaurals...

I don't think I've heard a single recording using those mics that I enjoy.

I'm guessing your listening experience has been limited with reguards to these mics?  I'm not saying that if you hear enough recordings, you'd enjoy them, just possibly that you heard a few bad ones so you're not inclined to give other recordings a listen.

I know you'd agree with this statement:

Location, config, venue, sound system, mix, etc. all play a role.

Have you heard any recordings made with the above mics by someone that wasn't green to taping at the time? 

This is my reasoning for suggesting Core-Sound mics over Sound  Pro mics.

I agree that Sound Pro mics can, from time to time make a very listenable recording, but for a newbie taper I think the reliability factor (dIsToRtIoN) is something someone new to taping can live without. 

"I'm running SP-XXX mics > SP bat box > MD and I have distortion, what's the problem?"   

While the CSB/CSC mics may not have as pleasing results as some SP mics (completely subjective), if the taper uses the correct input and sets the levels correctly, they should leave with a distortion free recording.  The smaller amount of variables the new taper has to worry about, the better IMO.  If given the right location/config/venue/sound, I think it's a shame that you could possibly come away with a distorted recording due to equipment failure.  IMO if the taper knows how to operate their equipment, has a good location, config, venue, sound system, mix, they can pull off a very listenable recording with Core-Sound mics every time.

All opinions here, I'm just looking to help those that are taking all these factors into consideration. 

I'd be more than happy to supply you with CS samples that I think might have an impact on your opinion.

 

EDIT: spelling + content

[Evil Taper]

Yeah what they said...I suggested sound pros because alot of people use them and pull decent recordings with them.  I don't know anyone besides Karl who still uses Cores for anything though so I wasn't about to suggest those.  I've personally been less than pleased with my sound pro's mics, 3 of 5 shows i taped with them have distortion on the bass at some level or another...but the ones without distortion sound better than any sony ecm will ever be capable of.  The mini ATs seem to just pick up too much bass, they require eq work to make them sound right for sure.  So I guess go with core's, or buy some DPA 4061s and you'll be VERY happy you did.  Some of my favorite stealth recordings were made with sound pros gear so I'm partial...

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm guessing your listening experience has been limited with reguards to these mics?  I'm not saying that if you hear enough recordings, you'd enjoy them, just possibly that you heard a few bad ones so you're not inclined to give other recordings a listen.

It's entirely possible my dislike of the CS mics is a result of simply hearing a series of crappy recordings made with them, and not hearing quality recordings.

I know you'd agree with this statement:

Location, config, venue, sound system, mix, etc. all play a role.

Yeah, absolutely.  I've heard crappy Schoeps, DPA, AKG, etc. recordings, too, not just CS.

Have you heard any recordings made with the above mics by someone that wasn't green to taping at the time? 

Dunno...most of the CS recordings are from when I was a trader, not taper, so I didn't often know the taper personally in order to determine whether they're a newb or not.

This is my reasoning for suggesting Core-Sound mics over Sound  Pro mics.

I understand your stance, makes sense to me.  Thanks for laying it out in greater detail.

I'd be more than happy to supply you with CS samples that I think might have an impact on your opinion.

I'm game.  PM sent.

[gewwang]

I compared core sound vs. sound pro when I first got into stealthing and ended up with at933 hypers with the sound pro selectable roll off battery box and ran them for about a year.

I listened to many core sound binaural tapes and all of them sounded unnatural. Limited low end on just about every tape I heard. Maybe they do a good job when placed 5 ft from the stacks but in those cases, most mics excel.

I do agree with the comments that the sound pros will distort for loud shows. I messed up a couple shows with them at high SPLs and ended up ditching them shortly after that. My best results were for the small venue rock shows that weren't thumping bass and screaming guitar solos.