Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (part V)

[willndmb]

with the battery box i would use line in always

[dactylus]

My set clock issue has gone away using kleiner Rainer's suggestion:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=146385.msg1880365#msg1880365

 

My clock issue has also disappeared using Kleiner Rainer's suggestion linked above.

+T and +T

 

[Drgiggles1]

with the battery box i would use line in always

Curious on why you would do that. With a pre definately line in but a BB you should always go mic in. Anyways As i am waiting on a pre from Chris since June I had to go with a CA-14 (o) into mic in on a PCMM10. Here is my 2 cents on the PCMM10. The venue was small,  Bergen PAC in Englewood, NJ. I have to tell you from recording in the sweet spot 6 rows FOB dead center the ideal record level setting on the PCMM10 would be just a hear under 3 for loud rock band. Slightly higher for backup band. This was for Ted Nugent and the floor was shakin' throwing vibrations through my body. Recording came out stellar. I highly recommend the CA-14 mics for the PCMM10 if you are on a budget. The PCMM10 has no complaints from me. Great device. The only thing i recommend is you put black tape over the mic sensitivity setting and manual record switch. I also recommend once you start recording and get your levels right, use the hold feature to lock the device buttons. Also best to start recording while venue is still lit up. Once the lights go out it can be awkward getting started. Limiter on with low cut filter off. Those little tidbits i learned from my previous outing.

[tbger]

Some accessories I've experienced and would highly recommend:

Screen protection
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/706759-USA/Vanguard_PROTECTOR_43_Protector_43_Screen_Protector.html



Dust protectors for input sockets
http://cgi.ebay.com/QU-Tech-3-5mm-headphone-jack-anti-dust-cover-Black-/260740176914?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item3cb5535c12#ht_1991wt_754

Pictures here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145048.msg1874269#msg1874269


Cases
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/754926-REG/Lowepro_LP36325_0AM_5_0_Navi_Case_Black.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/630164-REG/Lowepro_LP36006_0AM_Volta_20_Camera_Pouch.html


"Volta 20" on the left, "5.0 Navi" on the right

I leave the recorder connected to mics, headphones and the remote, using right-angled plugs like that on the picture, in a closed case that secures to the belt.  For this purpose the bigger one would be excellent.  It has just the space required for the recorder with the plugs connected to the sides and top.
If you don't use anything but microphones, then go for the Lowepro Volta 20 (the small one).  It would be tight right out the box, very tight.  Don't worry though as its tightness loosens with time.  It also has some hard sleeve, a piece of fabric along the zipper's path, that prevents the zipper from scratching the recorder.
They're both made of hard material and have quality zippers, heavy duty for a taper, and also elegant, low profile.

[yousef]

[with a]  BB you should always go mic in.

No you shouldn't.

Also I think that "3" on the M10's input would be well below unity by anyone's estimate thus far - I really wouldn't be happy if I was having to run at three to avoid clipping...

[aaronji]

[with a]  BB you should always go mic in.

No you shouldn't.

Why not?  The M10 can take quite a hot signal and has a quiet internal pre.  Most of the small mics people here use aren't sensitive enough to overload the M10's mic input unless it's obscenely loud.  I guess "always" is too strong of a word, but I don't think "usually" is.

Also I think that "3" on the M10's input would be well below unity by anyone's estimate thus far - I really wouldn't be happy if I was having to run at three to avoid clipping...

3 is not an unreasonable level, in my opinion.  I would be nervous if I had to go below 1, but 3 is no problem...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I've been doing a bit of testing with the free version of RMAA - right mark audio analyzer... it's neat.  Though a bit tricky to use, and documentation is sparse.  It has a mode where it generates audio test files which can then be played to a recorder under test.

I don't have an m10... but a good test would be to send the test tone to the recorder at each gain setting.  Then see if the freq response and distortion vary.   There is also something to be said for sending a clean sinewave to the recorder and visually inspecting the sine wave later.

One challenge in this test is the output level of the source.  A source that won't clip at max m10 gain will be very low at min gain.  So it may be necessary to use a couple different source gains.

[yousef]

Why not?  The M10 can take quite a hot signal and has a quiet internal pre.  Most of the small mics people here use aren't sensitive enough to overload the M10's mic input unless it's obscenely loud.  I guess "always" is too strong of a word, but I don't think "usually" is.

I would just never introduce a recorder's mic-in unless I absolutely had too.  But if you're happy with the M10's mic-in pre, I'm not going to argue with you.

3 is not an unreasonable level, in my opinion.  I would be nervous if I had to go below 1, but 3 is no problem...

But if 3 is below unity -and I believe all estimates thus far have put it somewhere higher than this- does this not mean that you are actually attenuating the signal? I would much rather have a signal path that involved a little (or no gain) to get the levels I wanted rather than having excess gain from an internal pre that then needs to be attenuated.

I guess part of my thinking may well be a hangover from the days of noisy mic-inputs that easily overloaded but I would still question the logic of using the mic-in if it means you're then having to attenuate the signal.

[aaronji]

I would just never introduce a recorder's mic-in unless I absolutely had too.  But if you're happy with the M10's mic-in pre, I'm not going to argue with you.

Well, I guess it depends on the recorder.  I wouldn't use the mic input on a Zoom H2 (tried that with crappy results), but I have no problems with the M10's.  It is quiet (see guysonic's noise plots) and seems to me to be pretty transparent too...

But if 3 is below unity -and I believe all estimates thus far have put it somewhere higher than this- does this not mean that you are actually attenuating the signal? I would much rather have a signal path that involved a little (or no gain) to get the levels I wanted rather than having excess gain from an internal pre that then needs to be attenuated.

I guess part of my thinking may well be a hangover from the days of noisy mic-inputs that easily overloaded but I would still question the logic of using the mic-in if it means you're then having to attenuate the signal.

As far as I know, the estimates of unity are based on the line input.  I have no idea whether or not they actually apply to the mic input.  But, regardless, I don't see why there would be a huge difference between adding a little gain or attenuating a bit (adding "negative gain"). 

Of course, the whole discussion assumes that the source is loud enough to go line-in in the first place.  In that case, I guess I would consider it sort of a toss-up.  Many of the shows I record, though, are quiet enough that I would either have to go mic-in or use an external pre...

[kleiner Rainer]

snip

3 is not an unreasonable level, in my opinion.  I would be nervous if I had to go below 1, but 3 is no problem...

But if 3 is below unity -and I believe all estimates thus far have put it somewhere higher than this- does this not mean that you are actually attenuating the signal? I would much rather have a signal path that involved a little (or no gain) to get the levels I wanted rather than having excess gain from an internal pre that then needs to be attenuated.

I guess part of my thinking may well be a hangover from the days of noisy mic-inputs that easily overloaded but I would still question the logic of using the mic-in if it means you're then having to attenuate the signal.

yousef,

afaik the concept of "unity gain" means 1V into line in or mic in and then you get 1V out of line out.

The setting of the record level shows some arbitrary value from "1" to "10". The gain at "5" when recording via mic in is completely different from the gain when using the same setting for line in (in this case, it may even be attenuation!).
I guarantee you that a mic gain setting of "3" still means a substantial amplification of a level of a few tens of millivolts, because the typical A/D converter expects voltages in the range of 2-4V peak to peak.
BTW the gain control in the M10 really sets the gain of the mic amp - so you only set the gain you need. This also optimises noise and headroom.
The other solution would be a mic pre with fixed or switchable gain followed by a variable voltage divider (either potentiometer or digitally switchable resistor network). This has the disadvantage that if you set the level pot low enough, you would get a clipped signal from the mic pre long before your level meters approach the overload mark...

So if you have to set the dial to "3", don`t worry. If the mic gain switch is set to high, you could set it to low, and turn up the dial to a value that is more comfortable for you ;-)

Greetings,

Rainer

[Bigdinca]

Thanks for all the info. I will use line in for the loud rock shows.

Don

[willndmb]

with the battery box i would use line in always

Curious on why you would do that. With a pre definately line in but a BB you should always go mic in.

well i always did louder shows and you can brickwall much easier going mic in
line in is usually quieter then mic in too so there is no need to introduce the noise imo

[yousef]

You were sort of convincing me until this point:

So if you have to set the dial to "3", don`t worry. If the mic gain switch is set to high, you could set it to low, and turn up the dial to a value that is more comfortable for you ;-)

As I understand it, the mic lo/high switch is just optional attenuation - so if you have it set to "lo" you are actually attenuating the signal to avoid overloading the input. That being the case, why not just plug it into the line input where it wouldn't need attenuating?

[kleiner Rainer]

You were sort of convincing me until this point:

So if you have to set the dial to "3", don`t worry. If the mic gain switch is set to high, you could set it to low, and turn up the dial to a value that is more comfortable for you ;-)

As I understand it, the mic lo/high switch is just optional attenuation - so if you have it set to "lo" you are actually attenuating the signal to avoid overloading the input. That being the case, why not just plug it into the line input where it wouldn't need attenuating?

yousef,

I do not have a schematic of the M10, but of the D50. In engineering, you try to re-use proven solutions. The mic preamp of the D50 has variable gain, and switching between Mic hi and Mic low also changes the gain of the preamp. This ensures maximum headroom and best noise figure. My measurements of the M10 hint at the same solution. This makes sense for battery powered devices where you simply cannot increase the preamp supply voltage to increase headroom. Using an attenuator makes sense when you have a real mixer with +-15V power supplies and symmetric inputs, where you can expect 1..2V worth of audio from a phantom powered condenser mic. Noise figure is not an issue then...

On the other hand, attenuating the weak signal from a battery powered electret mic with maybe 8mm diaphragm diameter reduces precious signal-to-noise ratio. Setting the gain of the mic preamp to just the value you need is the better solution in this case.

I did some measurements of the mic and line inputs:

Mic low, meter at -6dB, 1khz Sine wave:
Gain 10: 4.5mV
Gain 5: 29.4mV
Gain 3: 129.5mV

Mic high, meter at -6dB, 1khz Sine wave:
Gain 10: 0.4mV
Gain 5: 3.3mV
Gain 3: 18.4mV

Line in, meter at -6dB, 1khz Sine wave:
Gain 10: 260mV
Gain 5: 835mV
Gain 3: >2000mV, limited by signal generator

As you can see, we have 3 more or less overlapping gain ranges - nice! And the line input can take pro levels without problems.

Please take my measurements with a grain of salt, because the signal generator/meter combination I use is well worn (30 years old RIM PG-100) and not lab grade.

Hope that helps,

Rainer

[su6oxone]

I think the M10 has been out for about two years now... about time for a new model I would think. 

Given how ridiculously long the M10 lasts, I would like to see a new model that is even smaller that uses AAA batteries and still with decent battery life (maybe 10 hours or so).  It's great as it is, but smaller would be nice for stealthing.