Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 6)

[voltronic]

The idea of anyone using this recording for stealth recording seems pretty hilarious to me, especially considering the need for an external battery for more than an hour and half or so with phantom powered mics.  I have never done that kind of recording, but I imagine that people that do it have far smaller, lighter, and better options.

As far as why anyone needs 4 channels, well the most obvious thing no one mentioned yet is that you're recording using a 4-mic array.  Here's one example that I used with my 70D last week:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176324.msg2180991#msg2180991

[ballisticsquid]

The idea of anyone using this recording for stealth recording seems pretty hilarious to me, especially considering the need for an external battery for more than an hour and half or so with phantom powered mics.  I have never done that kind of recording, but I imagine that people that do it have far smaller, lighter, and better options.

As far as why anyone needs 4 channels, well the most obvious thing no one mentioned yet is that you're recording using a 4-mic array.  Here's one example that I used with my 70D last week:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176324.msg2180991#msg2180991

Wow, that sounds great!

[2manyrocks]

Voltronic gives serious attention to his craft.

I have a 60 voice choir with piano I may record. I'd like to record the choir in m/s and mic the piano under the lid.   Can I record m/s on two xlr channels and record a pair of dpa 4061s into the 1\8 stereo on the 70d?  The dpa mics will probably run through either a bb or a pipsqueak into the 1\8 stereo input. 

[voltronic]

Voltronic gives serious attention to his craft.

I have a 60 voice choir with piano I may record. I'd like to record the choir in m/s and mic the piano under the lid.   Can I record m/s on two xlr channels and record a pair of dpa 4061s into the 1\8 stereo on the 70d?  The dpa mics will probably run through either a bb or a pipsqueak into the 1\8 stereo input.

Thanks! 

That should work with the 70D, but as someone who records the exact thing you're describing all the time, I have to ask why you want to do an inside the piano placement.  I rarely like that sound unless it's a jazz band where you have to worry about lots of PA bleed.  In an accompanied choir situation, you should let the conductor have control of the balance and give a simple overall sound.  Inside the piano for me is a last resort option, as it almost always sounds boxy and is pretty difficult place your mics to get a consistent balance across the full range. (Full disclosure, I'm a pianist and choir director so I have very strong opinions on this.)

I would just use one pair of mics only for the whole thing, either your Schoeps m/s or spaced 4061s which would be my preference.  I'm traveling the next couple days but when I'm back home I can send you some samples. 

Can you describe the concert any further?  What age singers, type of piano, type of space, type of music?

[2manyrocks]

High school choir, good pianist playing a concert grand Steinway, very nice acoustic space.  They will be singing a piece in a style similar to the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir. 

The piano in this space is awesome. 

So...ideal setup for this would be?

[vanark]

There are people that do stealth with less than stealthy gear. I've seen SD744 with Schoeps actives as well as an R-4 with full body AKGs. Ninja skills.

That said, the form factor of this for 4 channels with phantom power is what people want it for. I have a 60D and picked it up just before the 70D came out. I immediately wanted to change, but after the card issues came up, I am sort of glad I stuck with my 60D even though it only has 2 channels of phantom.

[yug du nord]

I've Jedi'd my way with an HD-P2, full body mikes, and an invisible cloak before.  I wasn't the taper they were looking for..   

[MakersMarc]

4022s v3 and an m1 is the most I ever stealthed.

[voltronic]

High school choir, good pianist playing a concert grand Steinway, very nice acoustic space.  They will be singing a piece in a style similar to the Brooklyn Tabernacle choir. 

The piano in this space is awesome. 

So...ideal setup for this would be?

4061s on a tall stand a few feet back from conductor and a few feet higher than his/her head, as much as the height of your stand will allow.  Depending on where piano is, you may need to go back a little more so it's properly balanced.  Typically the piano is to the left of the conductor, but if it's far downstage you should move your stand a few feet backwards to avoid the piano overpowering the left half of the choir on your recording.  Space the mics 50cm wide as a starting point, listen and adjust if needed.  If you can do it, you could run your m/s rig centred between the 4061s and decide which one you like later.  The two pairs probably won't mix well unless your omnis are spaced more than 60cm though.  From the sound of things though, your 4061s are going to nail this.

If you're rather close, you can remove the 4061 grids to remove the HF bump.  Just be careful to orient the capsules to the front as that turns them into side address.  Or if you leave them on, be prepared to do assume EQ later to calm down the brightness. Gutbucket gave me some great advice with that, and I think I used a 5-6dB cut with a wide Q around 12kHz but then a shelf at 20kHz so it doesn't do the highs too much.

One thing about the piano:  if it's a really good instrument, please try to convince them to either leave the lid fully closed (if the conductor is concerned with overpowering the choir) or going full stick (which will obstruct the sightlines but have the best sound).  Avoid the short stick, as it makes the treble very beamy from the audience perspective.  I will sometimes use the short stick with our abused school pianos that have very dull treble response to compensate, but if this Steinway is in good shape I'd avoid that.

[2manyrocks]

This Steinway is fantastic.  They keep the lid down. 

Thanks.

[F.O.Bean]

Ive always wanted to mike pianos Just never had the chance I figure I could do it justice with 4 caps/actives that I have now! And a few churces in town are absolutely perfect for recording!

[voltronic]

Ive always wanted to mike pianos Just never had the chance I figure I could do it justice with 4 caps/actives that I have now! And a few churces in town are absolutely perfect for recording!

For solo piano in a good space, go full-stick and spaced omnis up high and 6-8ft away.  Or, try the "Decca tail" technique where the spaced omnis are on a low stand on stage pointing at the tail of the piano, about same distance.

[F.O.Bean]

Ive always wanted to mike pianos Just never had the chance I figure I could do it justice with 4 caps/actives that I have now! And a few churces in town are absolutely perfect for recording!

For solo piano in a good space, go full-stick and spaced omnis up high and 6-8ft away.  Or, try the "Decca tail" technique where the spaced omnis are on a low stand on stage pointing at the tail of the piano, about same distance.

Thanks Voltronic!

[dogmusic]

spaced omnis

How far apart would you space your omnis? And how would you mike a grand in a small room?

[voltronic]

spaced omnis

How far apart would you space your omnis? And how would you mike a grand in a small room?

As I said a few posts above, start at 50cm.  That's where things usually sound best to me, but you can definitely adjust in and out by ear, and the Williams Stereophonic Zoom doc has a chart that can be helpful.

For a piano in a small room though, this is NOT a good recording choice.  You're going to wind up accentuating all the early reflections of the low ceiling and narrow walls, and it will sound pretty awful.  Piano in a small room means you really don't want much of the sound of the room in your recording.  Instead, I'd try a traditional Faulkner array (20cm spaced fig8s, straight ahead) a little closer, maybe 3-4ft away and aimed inside the open lid roughly of to an angle at the bend of the piano.  The nulls of the fig8 should help avoid a lot of those early reflections, except for directly behind the mics where you may need something absorptive on that wall opposite the mics.

Another option is near-spaced cards.  I'd go for something like DIN or NOS instead of ORTF, again to reduce the room sound, but to give you some natural stereo.  You could also go X/Y which would have the least ambiance, but I'm not a fan of that for piano because the stereo image can move around in a distracting way as the pianist moves up and down the range of the keyboard.  In other words, the imaging is too precise.  Same placement distance to start with, but don't be afraid to go closer to get more direct sound and less room.  You'll have to experiment.

Just realizing that this should really be discussed in another thread, maybe in Team Classical.