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Author Topic: Recording dialogue  (Read 3867 times)

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Offline Sloan Simpson

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Recording dialogue
« on: April 08, 2015, 05:03:26 PM »
A friend is shooting a commercial on spec for a local quick-service restaurant, and has asked me to help with getting good audio for him. It will be a static shot indoors. I realize a shotgun mic and boom pole are preferred but there's no budget to rent. I have Neumann KM-184's and AKG 480/ck63's. I assume the AKG would be preferable? Any other tips from anyone who's done this before?

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2015, 06:41:32 PM »
With nearly all commercials (and tv shows/movies for that matter) the audio is recorded independently in a controlled setting then dubbed/synched to the video in post.  A little time watching tv closely and you can see which commercials/shows have poor production values and which don't.  The margin for error is quite wide from the looks of what I've watched... 

In a setting like a restaurant (usually very loud and busy) I think you'd have a hard time getting any decent live dialogue. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2015, 09:02:17 PM »
I'm assuming we'd be shooting when they're closed, but I could be wrong.

Offline tim_k

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2015, 01:18:32 AM »
For indoor recording a hyper will be great (schoeps cmc641 or senn mkh50/8050 are generally the standards right now), but if you haven't boomed before a card might be more forgiving if there is more than one person talking. Learn the dialog so you can cue the mic to each person talking. Learn to swing the boom without making handling noise. In a place like a restaurant, even if it is closed, it will be really noisy from stuff like freezers, ice machines, coolers, air conditioning, etc. Get as much of that turned off as you can, and if possible get some moving blankets to cover things that make noise. Make sure music is turned off! Listen for sounds that cover the  dialog, squeaks, moving props, planes, traffic, camera dolly, whatever. Get the mic as close as you can to whoever is speaking and if they do a wide shot insist on a close up too to get cleaner dialog (it sounds like you don't even have a boom pole??!?!?). In place of a boom pole maybe use a stand, or a painters pole? But really if you've never done location production sound, they might want to budget for someone who specializes in it next time.

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2015, 09:44:56 AM »
Thanks. No boom pole. There will only be one person talking so I'm hoping we can get away with a stand as close as possible.
 

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 01:58:19 PM »
IMO if you have to run live in that sort of setting and don't have a boom pole or training and there's only one subject you should get (and learn to get good results from) a lavalier.  You don't need music frequency ranges (or expense) in a mic for dialogue.  That learning curve is a lot smaller than the other methods involved and it will be a lot more forgiving for camera work as well. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 02:31:18 PM »
Thanks. This will be a one-off I'm sure, unless there's budget in future projects.

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 01:27:37 AM »
I did some interviews for a local band's Indigogo campaign video. For the first person on short notice I put a lav on him sitting in a bar they play at frequently. Picked up a lot of ambient noise but I was surprised how well the subject actually stood out.My first time ever doing this so winging it on short notice.

For the next guy I did both lav and setup a Schoeps cmc6/mk41 sitting on the table. The mk41 sounded much more natural. Worked really well. By the fourth band member I confidently placed the mk41 on the table and it worked great.

I have a consumer camera so I just record audio and video separately and sync up with Plural eyes in post.

I think you'll be fine if you have a controlled environment, single stationary subject,  and either the cards or hypers. Could you set both up and see which you like later? If you haven't already check out jwsoundgroup.net . This is what they all do. I learned a lot reading over there.

I had a lot of fun doing this.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline Bruce Watson

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Re: Recording dialogue
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2015, 12:28:14 PM »
A friend is shooting a commercial on spec for a local quick-service restaurant, and has asked me to help with getting good audio for him. It will be a static shot indoors. I realize a shotgun mic and boom pole are preferred but there's no budget to rent. I have Neumann KM-184's and AKG 480/ck63's. I assume the AKG would be preferable? Any other tips from anyone who's done this before?

The "secret" to dialog recording is that signal-to-noise ratio is really about locating the mic properly. Specifically, it's about how close you can get to the speaker's mouth.

Why is this important to you? Reflections. Besides extraneous noise from coolers, HVAC, etc., when your talent speaks, the room is going to reflect that sound. Being close allows you to turn down the gain, which in turn makes the room noises and reflections softer compared to the dialog you want to hear. It's really just that simple. And this is exactly why the very worst place you can put a mic is on the camera. Very worst. Because the mic is way too far away, and it's not pointed at the right spot anyway. Amateur hour.

The way booming works is you put the mic above the talent's head just out of frame for the video, and out in front of the talent so that you can point the mic at talent's mouth at about a 45 degree angle. If you do it right you can usually get the distance from mic to talent's mouth down to that 45-60 cm range. Unfortunately for you, that's not close enough for a cardioid, and is one of the main reasons hypercardioid mics are typically used for indoor dialog work. You can do this with a cardioid, but it won't have the "reach" of a hyper, and thus your capture will include more room reflections that you might want (your dialog will start to sound "boxy").

The reason you don't want to use a shotgun mic indoors is because of it's rear lobe. It picks up reflections in the opposite direction the mic is pointed, and if you're booming above the talent, the rear lobe usually ends up perilously close to the ceiling and picks up all sorts of nastyness. Also the diffraction tube will do some comb filtering of reflections from the sides (and of course the ceiling) -- if the reflections are close enough in time to the direct sound from talent, it can be dreadful.

Where does that leave you? Two ways to go maybe. One is to give in and let the mic be in the shot. Use a reporters stick mic like the very popular Electro-Voice RE50N/D-B (just about every local news crew in the US uses these, so look at how they use them and train you talent appropriately). Alternatively, you can use a lavalier mic, either concealed or not. If you go down the lavalier path, use only omni mics. Do not use directional mics. You won't believe it, but there are extremely good reasons that no one uses anything but omnis, and I've run out of time to go into any more depth.

Sorry, I know it's not what you wanted to hear. But the laws of physics are the laws of physics.

 

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