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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: plucks on April 09, 2003, 03:17:25 PM
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Hey all...I have a question for you 4(1)v users:
Have you guys run them horizontal in the ORTF position and liked the results? I haven't heard any tapes from this positioning and am wondering how the results are compared to running them in the standard vertical position.
I am assuming the pickup pattern is the same either way because the mic itself doesn't know what direction it's facing, but would the shell do anything to it?
Do you guys prefer the horizontal pattern over the vertical pattern in the setup? I just am interested in hearing what you have to say. peace
Phil
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when I run the fours, I usually run them XY, emulating the XY4V thing. I figure if schoeps does it that way, it's good enough for me!
(http://schoeps.de/images/cmxy4v.jpg)
Bri
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i ran the 4v's for summer tour 99 and was less than satisfied with the results. at the time i was running into the old vms box. when i ran them i ran them both vertically and ortf. there is definitely a difference in the sound depending on which way you run them. i liked them more when i ran them ortf. i used the schoeps stc bar. to do this it looks like the mics are facing the back of the room. for my tastes, though, i just could not see me taping the majority of shows with them. i thought the bass was a little muddy and the highs were too brittle. kinda overexaggerated and electronic sounding to my ears.
now, having said that, i have heard MANY nice tapes bri and others have pulled with these mics. usually the tapes i like with them are in small venues up front. that is where i believe they tend to shine. anyway, i got the 41's after that tour and have never been happier. the highs on the 41's are so sweet!!!!! imo, it is the best all around cap schoeps makes.
have fun,
dave
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so, so far you think they are best to run em like they look like they are facing backwards when you are close up?
I thought that maybe the pickup pattern would change as well, as it sounds like it may have when you ran em in that position.
Phil
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I agree, the mk41 is a great cap and can be used in almost any situation.
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the ONLY way you can configure the 4v's or 41v's in ortf is to run them backwards.
dave
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Where'd you guys buy your Schoeps?
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I got a great package deal on a pair of cmc5 with mk41 caps from Soundpure.com. Not sure what the prices are with the increase, I got that set for $1800
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the ONLY way you can configure the 4v's or 41v's in ortf is to run them backwards.
dave
Interesting! That answers it...+T peace
Phil
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the ONLY way you can configure the 4v's or 41v's in ortf is to run them backwards.
dave
Not necessarily true. I have seen several folks run them on a sliding bar using the mini clips that schoeps sells. Not as easy to set up as using the stcg bar and running it backwards, but for the purists, this is the way to go. Also, Robert Kwon was telling me that he is producing a vertical bar for the v series w/ actives. Just like the stcg bar, but the holes allow them to stand straight up. You adjust the degree of orientation to suit your needs. He also makes a DIN bar(one 17cm/90deg and another 20cm/90deg). They are machined to perfection just like the stcg bar, except it is black.
-William
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i believe those bars are available at cascademedia if not straight from robert himself, do you have his email william and would he mind you posting it?
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Email me if interested and I will email Robert. I doubt that he would care, but cosidering that he always posts anon on other boards, he might want to deal with it. As far as cascade goes, they have pictures on their site. DIN, DIN-A, and NOS... and no, I am not affiliated with either. I just hate seeing sources with people running 41's with the stcg bar just because they have active cables. Yes, there is a better way ::)
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I love the 4V's and generally run them backwards on the STC bar (because I'm lazy like that). The thing is though, it's not really ortf. It's just about 17cm of spacing (probably closer to 15cm, in reality) and 70* included angle, not 110* like the ortf spec.
I'd be interested in a bar that would do multiple configs easy though :)
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I don't run the 4v's but I have compared them the the 4's and the diaphragms looked to me like the line up correctly. I could be wrong. Anybody else tried this?
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thanks for the info william!!! +T ;D
there's always another way....
dave
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and i just realized i said i had the 4v's in 99 but it was 00.
the 4's rocked out 99!!! ;)
dave
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jeff,
i guess i missed your post originally.
can you explain how it only measures 15cm/70 degrees???
i am confused. when i ran it i thought it measured correctly?
thanks,
dave
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OK, just back from happy hour (at 12:30am no less)... but I'll try to explain :)
the tips of the caps of 4's, 21's, 41's, etc are a bit further out than where the actual diaphrams of the 4V's are. The diaphrams aren't at the tip of the cap (on the V's), more towards the middle. That's where i got the 15cm estimate from. It's just an estimate though, could be closer to 17cm, or furthur away for that matter.
Now, the 70*... if you look at the 110* included angle, and put the caps backwards at 90* from that 110* you get 70* of included angle. It seems right on the bar, but actually look at the STC bar with caps on it, then put 2 straight edges at 90* (or side pickup, like the V's) and look at what you have. You can also do this on a peice of paper... just draw out a 110* angle (90* + a lil bit) and then draw 2 lines at 90* from each of them, your included angle will be less than 90* at 70*.
Either way, I like the tapes that are made this way, but I'm thinkin about trying the Vark bar out for some DIN and real ORTF with the 4V's in the near future.
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thanks jeff!
it's a little tough for me to conceptualize this. i drew it out on paper, but that didn't help much. i am still not getting an angle at 70 degrees. no worries, i will hopefully see you this summer and be able to check it out.
be well,
dave
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OK, just back from happy hour (at 12:30am no less)... but I'll try to explain :)
the tips of the caps of 4's, 21's, 41's, etc are a bit further out than where the actual diaphrams of the 4V's are. The diaphrams aren't at the tip of the cap (on the V's), more towards the middle. That's where i got the 15cm estimate from. It's just an estimate though, could be closer to 17cm, or furthur away for that matter.
Now, the 70*... if you look at the 110* included angle, and put the caps backwards at 90* from that 110* you get 70* of included angle. It seems right on the bar, but actually look at the STC bar with caps on it, then put 2 straight edges at 90* (or side pickup, like the V's) and look at what you have. You can also do this on a peice of paper... just draw out a 110* angle (90* + a lil bit) and then draw 2 lines at 90* from each of them, your included angle will be less than 90* at 70*.
Either way, I like the tapes that are made this way, but I'm thinkin about trying the Vark bar out for some DIN and real ORTF with the 4V's in the near future.
Ok...after talking with Marc about this setup, the conclusion was made that whether or not you use the 4v's or the 4's on the STC bar (This is for ORTF only) you can come out with the same result. Theoretically, it should pretty much be the same. The point of "contact," where the sound reaches the capsule, is almost the same. There may a little difference as far as the 4s being a little farther forward than the v's. Drawings were made--it sure would be nice to put the paper on the screen-- of the sound coming into the mic, and with the exception of the distance between the 4s pointing "towards" the source and the v's pointing "backwards", the included angle is still 110* the 4v caps. The casing sizes are different on the 2 caps, but the actual capsules are in about the same place when used on the STC bar.
Also, I would add that you can still run the v's in the vertical position in the ORTF configuration using a bar like the AKG bar (not only the STC) but you have to make sure to set up the bar correctly. Thats the time consuming part compared to using the STC bar.
This isn't supposed to re-iterate information, but hopefully clear up some discussions. Also, I'm still interested in hearing feedback from anyone who has tried the 4v's vertically and horizontally to determine if there is any distinguishable difference.
Phil
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not to pick on you, Phil, but if Marc has all the answers you want to hear the whole time, then why not just ask him? isn't he just in the next room or down the hall or something? ;)
seems to me if Marc diagramed this out for you on paper and all, he should be able to clear up the rest of your 'dilema'. ::)
happy retailing.
peace
~S
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Hey Phil... if you could, please scan the drawings for me/us on the 4V's backwards on the ortf bar still being a 110* included angle.
I did the math back when I bought the 4V's and STC bar, and thought that it was indeed 110*, but then recently was told to recheck the math to make sure. This time I came out with the 70* calculation. I'm still confused and need to find a ruler and actually draw/scan the stuff to be completely happy... although if you guys could scan your drawings/proof then I wouldn't have to :)
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thanks jeff! i was getting ready to write the same thing.
i am having trouble visualizing it without the mics in front of me, so a good drawing would do us all some good.
dave
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Also, I would add that you can still run the v's in the vertical position in the ORTF configuration using a bar like the AKG bar (not only the STC) but you have to make sure to set up the bar correctly. Thats the time consuming part compared to using the STC bar.
This isn't supposed to re-iterate information, but hopefully clear up some discussions. Also, I'm still interested in hearing feedback from anyone who has tried the 4v's vertically and horizontally to determine if there is any distinguishable difference.
Phil
You can also still run ORTF with the actives. Run a Vark Bar, a pair of Schoeps clips (SGC) made for the CCM series mics and a single A20S shockmount.
I also did some comparisons a long time ago with the 4V's run vertical for a set (ortf) and then another set run on the STC bar. I couldn't hear any real difference between the two and have since kept with the lazy route of running them on the STC bar :)
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Jeff has a perfect example of the vark bar + sgc + 4v's in the rig pictures thread. Here it is again...
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Thanks to JeffK and SchoepsT00bes for pushing this issue a bit. I'm afraid we were having a geometrically challenged moment when we worked up those calculations.
Fortunately, after speaking with a Schoeps representative, we got things figured out. Yes, as Jeffk pointed out, it is a 70 degree included angle that results when running the 4v's in the STC (ORTF bar) "backwards." The distance between the caps. is similar but the angle is different.
Now, back to the question about running them "backwards" (at the resulting 70 degrees) vs vertically at a real ORTF (110 degrees)...When run in this configuration, the 4v's aren't a true ORTF, but run on an ORTF bar at a 70 degree angle.
No sketches needed to solve this one.
Still, any other 4v users find they like one arrangement better than another (without considering ease of setup)?
Peace,
Phil