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Author Topic: Cable burn in?  (Read 39153 times)

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2006, 12:25:52 PM »
I deleted my posts because I can not have an opinion with out someone like your self saying shit about me, I am tired of this.

A- I never said someone else should do all the work for this test but someone said they would I said great.

B- I never said anything bad about anyone on this board. EVER I have used generalizations yes but not direct connections to any one user.

C- I am entitled to my opinion in this mater but I can see it offended so many people I thought I should just delete it all.

D- I am not taking my toys and going home I am still here I do get tired of being picked on but I do notice a pattern here it seems that anyone who makes mics and preamps gets treated like shit IMO that’s why some of the people I know in the business will not come on here anymore to talk.

E- I love to debate with people all things audio that is how I learn by being shown I am wrong and occasionally being shown I am right. But I guess I just do not fit into the click here.

F- I don’t give a  F$#@ anymore I am going to try to help anyone on here that asks for help if you want to hijack the threads like you did this one and call me names and all that shit your welcome to do so. I like trying to help people. I have spent hours on here trying to type things out. I am not the best typist or speller and my grammar could stand some improvement but here I am trying to help anyway. I will not be dissuaded by you.


G- Have a good day let’s just try and get along

I am sorry I said the things in the PM that I said to you I was pretty pissed off.



I am done. I have deleted all of my posts here in this thread. I do not care say what you will. I have my opinion but since it does not conform I will keep it to my self from now on.


Why did you delete all your posts?  If you keep picking up your toys and going home every time someone calls you out, maybe you should just go and not keep coming back.

I don't have 20 years of audio experience, but I have many close friends who do, including engineers who have run sound for Madonna, The Outlaws, The Allman Brothers, Peter Frampton and too many more to list.  I've had a couple of them try to tell me crazy shit, like "recording into Nuendo the music gets saved in a proprietary format and you have to export it out over lightpipe to convert it to wave forms"   ???  Last time I checked, wav format was not proprietary...

So my point is 20 years of experience in sound does not necessarily mean shit for credibility.  You've proven that you are opinionated and when challenged you pout and leave.

Interestingly enough, all my friends agree with you - cable is cable and it doesn't make a difference.  One of therm even used the phrase "snake oil".  However, FOH work is different enough from field recording and home listening that maybe they never bothered to listen for a difference.

I don't know which is right and which is wrong, all I know is that you had the opportunity to spark some really interesting tests and discussion and instead you chose to be a blowhard and a crybaby.  Some "professional" you are...

I've never written a post like this before, but I felt it needed to be said.

Dirk
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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2006, 12:43:39 PM »
I do notice a pattern here it seems that anyone who makes mics and preamps gets treated like shit IMO that’s why some of the people I know in the business will not come on here anymore to talk.

You mean GuySonic and Len Moskowitz?  The GuySonic and Moskowitz material from 10 years ago on dat-heads still ranks at the top of the arrogant self promotion I've witnessed.  If you want to lump yourself in with those guys you're going to have to make a much much bigger ass of yourself.

Doug Oade gets treated with a hell of a lot of respect.   So apparently designing mics and preamps is not the common trait that draws disrepect.  It isn't strictly a vendor thing.  There are plenty of vendors here who get a lot of respect.

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Offline SparkE!

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2006, 10:55:24 PM »
Chris, it really didn't help for you to delete your posts since they were so heavily quoted throughout this thread.  It's kind of like nails that you wish you hadn't driven.  You can pull them, but the holes are still going to be there.

Unfortunately, it's hard to disagree with others in a public forum without sounding like an ass to some of the people who disagree with you.  (And no, I'm not calling you an ass.  I'm just saying that it's hard to disagree with others without some of them thinking you're an ass.)  And while we're on the subject, I don't think you're an ass. (Of course, I agree with you, so that might be influencing my opinion of you. ;D)

It's been my experience that the only thing that's harder to discuss than politics, culture and religion is audio equipment.  People can be unreasonably offended when you question their equipment choices.  We all know what types of commitment people have to their own particular choices in mics.  Apparently choice of cables carries that same level of what I consider to be irrational commitment.

But then again, I'm a cheap bastard.  My goal in equipment is to get good enough performance from my gear that you can't tell the difference between my recordings and the recordings of the high end stuff and at about 1/10th the price.  I want to believe that some moderately cheap cables produce results are virtually indistiguishable from the results you'd get with über expensive cables.  I have a good theoretical background in the analysis and design of transmission lines, filters and amplifiers, so I tend to look at cables in terms of their distributed capacitance, inductance and resistance and how those things affect that signals that pass through them.  I also know that at audio frequencies, things like current bunching and skin effect produce real, predictable, measurable, but insignificant effects for all but the longest cable runs.

Are the high end cables better? Probably.  Can you tell the difference?  Maybe, but I've never been able to, or at least I've rationalized the use of my cheap cables by not really trying hard to tell the difference.  You say that you'd love to be proved wrong.  Not me! I'd hate it because then I'd have to buy expensive cables in order to be satisfied that I was doing an adequate job of recording.

But that's not what this thread is about.  It's about the notion that cables somehow get better with use.  I can't adequately express how preposterous that seems to me.  Somehow, we're supposed to believe that something changes about the cables, but no one seems to be able to say exactly what that something is.  I definitely believe that there are people that are convinced that the burn-in effect is real and actually, I tend to agree.  What we don't agree on is this:  People who believe in burn-in believe that it's the cables that change.  What I believe is that people's opinion of their cables change with time and the cables remain unchanged.  If anything, I believe that the cables actually get worse with time just due to wear and tear on the plating on the contacts, but the change is so small as to be insignificant until the contact plating actually wears through and you start getting shot noise and intermittent continuity in your signal path.

So, let's do the tests.  I'm still needing about 5 to 10 seconds of high quality audio to use in the tests.  I've got lots of 16 bit material that I think is pretty good, but this burn-in effect, if it even exists, is probably going to be more subtle than the quantization error in a 16 bit recording.  I'm not even sure that the quantization noise in a 24 bit recording will be sufficiently low for you to be able the hear the difference between a used cable and a new one.  Let me know if you have a clip that you think will be good enough to reveal the difference between new and burned-in cables.  The sooner we choose an adequate recording, the sooner we can reach an agreement and quit antagonizing Chris. ;)
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2006, 12:20:31 AM »
How dare you say I am not an ass! I am an ass we all are from time to time :) but can’t we all just get along. I wanted you to make the samples because everyone around here knows you and I would say respects you. I have got a lot of heat for not doing it my self; I wish I had high end cable. But I do not I only have canare cable IMO that is high end cable :) anyway I hope you can find the time to do this I would like to as well as with music use a mls tone and run it through the cables as well I can supply that to you. The only problem is I would need an mls tone of the recorder so I could subtract that from the results of the cable, if that makes sense. I got pissed off I think some people on here just want to piss on me. I have just decided to ignore them totally. Life is too short, I respect you and value your views in this subject, I have read your posts on capacitors and a few other subjects and learned quite a bit from them.

Chris Church


Chris, it really didn't help for you to delete your posts since they were so heavily quoted throughout this thread.  It's kind of like nails that you wish you hadn't driven.  You can pull them, but the holes are still going to be there.

Unfortunately, it's hard to disagree with others in a public forum without sounding like an ass to some of the people who disagree with you.  (And no, I'm not calling you an ass.  I'm just saying that it's hard to disagree with others without some of them thinking you're an ass.)  And while we're on the subject, I don't think you're an ass. (Of course, I agree with you, so that might be influencing my opinion of you. ;D)

It's been my experience that the only thing that's harder to discuss than politics, culture and religion is audio equipment.  People can be unreasonably offended when you question their equipment choices.  We all know what types of commitment people have to their own particular choices in mics.  Apparently choice of cables carries that same level of what I consider to be irrational commitment.

But then again, I'm a cheap bastard.  My goal in equipment is to get good enough performance from my gear that you can't tell the difference between my recordings and the recordings of the high end stuff and at about 1/10th the price.  I want to believe that some moderately cheap cables produce results are virtually indistiguishable from the results you'd get with über expensive cables.  I have a good theoretical background in the analysis and design of transmission lines, filters and amplifiers, so I tend to look at cables in terms of their distributed capacitance, inductance and resistance and how those things affect that signals that pass through them.  I also know that at audio frequencies, things like current bunching and skin effect produce real, predictable, measurable, but insignificant effects for all but the longest cable runs.

Are the high end cables better? Probably.  Can you tell the difference?  Maybe, but I've never been able to, or at least I've rationalized the use of my cheap cables by not really trying hard to tell the difference.  You say that you'd love to be proved wrong.  Not me! I'd hate it because then I'd have to buy expensive cables in order to be satisfied that I was doing an adequate job of recording.

But that's not what this thread is about.  It's about the notion that cables somehow get better with use.  I can't adequately express how preposterous that seems to me.  Somehow, we're supposed to believe that something changes about the cables, but no one seems to be able to say exactly what that something is.  I definitely believe that there are people that are convinced that the burn-in effect is real and actually, I tend to agree.  What we don't agree on is this:  People who believe in burn-in believe that it's the cables that change.  What I believe is that people's opinion of their cables change with time and the cables remain unchanged.  If anything, I believe that the cables actually get worse with time just due to wear and tear on the plating on the contacts, but the change is so small as to be insignificant until the contact plating actually wears through and you start getting shot noise and intermittent continuity in your signal path.

So, let's do the tests.  I'm still needing about 5 to 10 seconds of high quality audio to use in the tests.  I've got lots of 16 bit material that I think is pretty good, but this burn-in effect, if it even exists, is probably going to be more subtle than the quantization error in a 16 bit recording.  I'm not even sure that the quantization noise in a 24 bit recording will be sufficiently low for you to be able the hear the difference between a used cable and a new one.  Let me know if you have a clip that you think will be good enough to reveal the difference between new and burned-in cables.  The sooner we choose an adequate recording, the sooner we can reach an agreement and quit antagonizing Chris. ;)
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2006, 12:27:53 AM »
IMO I think you might want a longer peace of music then 10 seconds I can't personally tell in 10 seconds if something is better I can hear some things maybe in 10 seconds but give me a whole song and I can hear all kinds of things or even maybe half of a song I really do not think copy write issues are of any importance here I might be wrong but you are not selling the recording you are only using it to demonstrate a point? I donno I can give you two minutes of me playing guitar but I don’t know if that would qualify as HiFi lol. I don’t know I can also hold these files on my server if need be. Let me know if that is an issue I can host them and provide a URL link to them.

Chris, it really didn't help for you to delete your posts since they were so heavily quoted throughout this thread.  It's kind of like nails that you wish you hadn't driven.  You can pull them, but the holes are still going to be there.

Unfortunately, it's hard to disagree with others in a public forum without sounding like an ass to some of the people who disagree with you.  (And no, I'm not calling you an ass.  I'm just saying that it's hard to disagree with others without some of them thinking you're an ass.)  And while we're on the subject, I don't think you're an ass. (Of course, I agree with you, so that might be influencing my opinion of you. ;D)

It's been my experience that the only thing that's harder to discuss than politics, culture and religion is audio equipment.  People can be unreasonably offended when you question their equipment choices.  We all know what types of commitment people have to their own particular choices in mics.  Apparently choice of cables carries that same level of what I consider to be irrational commitment.

But then again, I'm a cheap bastard.  My goal in equipment is to get good enough performance from my gear that you can't tell the difference between my recordings and the recordings of the high end stuff and at about 1/10th the price.  I want to believe that some moderately cheap cables produce results are virtually indistiguishable from the results you'd get with über expensive cables.  I have a good theoretical background in the analysis and design of transmission lines, filters and amplifiers, so I tend to look at cables in terms of their distributed capacitance, inductance and resistance and how those things affect that signals that pass through them.  I also know that at audio frequencies, things like current bunching and skin effect produce real, predictable, measurable, but insignificant effects for all but the longest cable runs.

Are the high end cables better? Probably.  Can you tell the difference?  Maybe, but I've never been able to, or at least I've rationalized the use of my cheap cables by not really trying hard to tell the difference.  You say that you'd love to be proved wrong.  Not me! I'd hate it because then I'd have to buy expensive cables in order to be satisfied that I was doing an adequate job of recording.

But that's not what this thread is about.  It's about the notion that cables somehow get better with use.  I can't adequately express how preposterous that seems to me.  Somehow, we're supposed to believe that something changes about the cables, but no one seems to be able to say exactly what that something is.  I definitely believe that there are people that are convinced that the burn-in effect is real and actually, I tend to agree.  What we don't agree on is this:  People who believe in burn-in believe that it's the cables that change.  What I believe is that people's opinion of their cables change with time and the cables remain unchanged.  If anything, I believe that the cables actually get worse with time just due to wear and tear on the plating on the contacts, but the change is so small as to be insignificant until the contact plating actually wears through and you start getting shot noise and intermittent continuity in your signal path.

So, let's do the tests.  I'm still needing about 5 to 10 seconds of high quality audio to use in the tests.  I've got lots of 16 bit material that I think is pretty good, but this burn-in effect, if it even exists, is probably going to be more subtle than the quantization error in a 16 bit recording.  I'm not even sure that the quantization noise in a 24 bit recording will be sufficiently low for you to be able the hear the difference between a used cable and a new one.  Let me know if you have a clip that you think will be good enough to reveal the difference between new and burned-in cables.  The sooner we choose an adequate recording, the sooner we can reach an agreement and quit antagonizing Chris. ;)
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Offline balou2

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2006, 12:47:03 AM »
I agree with Chris.  Whatever sample it is, 10 seconds is probably not enough.  Sometimes it takes my ears that long to "settle" around a sound, let alone begin processing what I'm hearing.  Good call.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2006, 01:25:17 AM »
only thing i have to say about this thread is:

using el-cheapo cables will yield decent results, but once youve stepped into the HQ cable category, there is def an audible, not saying you have to spend 10,000 dollars to get HQ cables, but i can def hear a huge diff in canare vs. silver-clad and in the same respect, i heard a HUGE difference in my jump from Audio Magic X-Streams vs. the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy built me over a year ago, the silver-clads really opened up my rig, deffienrce was HUGE IMO, tahts why i fluffed leegeddy's/ToddR's cables so much, cause i trhought the quality was exceptional for a sub 200 pair of XLR's 8)

now as to wether 'burning-in' is beneficiary, well, not sure about that, maybe heresy, maybe not, i think getting quality cables is what matters, not how many hrs theyve been 'burned-in'

but suggesting a cheapo RS cable is as good as silver-clad/silver/etc is just crazy, the shielding/insulation/craftmanship is almost always better the more you spend, and thats what i think needs to be realized

BUT, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one :)

I thought it was an AMAZING jump going from the AM X-Streams to the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy/ToddR crafted and you may think im crazy( I think im crazy) but that jump in quality wasnt just made up in my mind to justify the purchase in my head, the difference was 'night-and-day' to me, and thats all that matters, cause im the one who islistening to the majority of my tapes, not joe-public :)\

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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2006, 02:57:31 AM »
I think that what you say is true. There is a difference between cheap cables like radio shack and high end cables. In workmanship shielding capacitance resistance/impedance microphonics ect not to mention connectors. I just wanted to have the radio shack cables be a part of the test just to see what happens when people listen to them. Also I personally feel that just testing two cables only give a 50/50 and in some cases someone might get lucky just guessing. I thought in order to make this a real test at least three cables should be used. What do you think?

Chris Church


only thing i have to say about this thread is:

using el-cheapo cables will yield decent results, but once youve stepped into the HQ cable category, there is def an audible, not saying you have to spend 10,000 dollars to get HQ cables, but i can def hear a huge diff in canare vs. silver-clad and in the same respect, i heard a HUGE difference in my jump from Audio Magic X-Streams vs. the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy built me over a year ago, the silver-clads really opened up my rig, deffienrce was HUGE IMO, tahts why i fluffed leegeddy's/ToddR's cables so much, cause i trhought the quality was exceptional for a sub 200 pair of XLR's 8)

now as to wether 'burning-in' is beneficiary, well, not sure about that, maybe heresy, maybe not, i think getting quality cables is what matters, not how many hrs theyve been 'burned-in'

but suggesting a cheapo RS cable is as good as silver-clad/silver/etc is just crazy, the shielding/insulation/craftmanship is almost always better the more you spend, and thats what i think needs to be realized

BUT, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one :)

I thought it was an AMAZING jump going from the AM X-Streams to the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy/ToddR crafted and you may think im crazy( I think im crazy) but that jump in quality wasnt just made up in my mind to justify the purchase in my head, the difference was 'night-and-day' to me, and thats all that matters, cause im the one who islistening to the majority of my tapes, not joe-public :)\

so do what your ears like best, they'll love you for it ;D
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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2006, 03:11:15 AM »
I think that what you say is true. There is a difference between cheap cables like radio shack and high end cables. In workmanship shielding capacitance resistance/impedance microphonics ect not to mention connectors. I just wanted to have the radio shack cables be a part of the test just to see what happens when people listen to them. Also I personally feel that just testing two cables only give a 50/50 and in some cases someone might get lucky just guessing. I thought in order to make this a real test at least three cables should be used. What do you think?

Chris Church


only thing i have to say about this thread is:

using el-cheapo cables will yield decent results, but once youve stepped into the HQ cable category, there is def an audible, not saying you have to spend 10,000 dollars to get HQ cables, but i can def hear a huge diff in canare vs. silver-clad and in the same respect, i heard a HUGE difference in my jump from Audio Magic X-Streams vs. the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy built me over a year ago, the silver-clads really opened up my rig, deffienrce was HUGE IMO, tahts why i fluffed leegeddy's/ToddR's cables so much, cause i trhought the quality was exceptional for a sub 200 pair of XLR's 8)

now as to wether 'burning-in' is beneficiary, well, not sure about that, maybe heresy, maybe not, i think getting quality cables is what matters, not how many hrs theyve been 'burned-in'

but suggesting a cheapo RS cable is as good as silver-clad/silver/etc is just crazy, the shielding/insulation/craftmanship is almost always better the more you spend, and thats what i think needs to be realized

BUT, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one :)

I thought it was an AMAZING jump going from the AM X-Streams to the Silver-Clad cables that Leegeddy/ToddR crafted and you may think im crazy( I think im crazy) but that jump in quality wasnt just made up in my mind to justify the purchase in my head, the difference was 'night-and-day' to me, and thats all that matters, cause im the one who islistening to the majority of my tapes, not joe-public :)\

so do what your ears like best, they'll love you for it ;D

sounds good to me Chris

I would personally use RS cables/Canare cables and some high-end/silver-clad cables

I was really amazed at how much cleaner/clearer/responsive my silver-clads were even moving up from those AM X-Streams tho 8) mind-blowing improvemnt

i think that also has to deal w/ hand-made cables, the xstreams are the only AM cables that arent hand-built, so i think that says something right there
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
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DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »
I agree with Chris.  Whatever sample it is, 10 seconds is probably not enough.  Sometimes it takes my ears that long to "settle" around a sound, let alone begin processing what I'm hearing.  Good call.
Yes, but there are other things to think about too.  If you make the clips too long, it can be hard to actually do an A/B comparison.  Linguists that designed the tests for speech intelligibility and speech quality for the vocoders used in modern handheld digital communications devices in our military and public safety organizations found that they could not get good results when the audio samples were longer than about 10 seconds.  Their tests were designed around phrases that were between 3 1/2 seconds and 4 seconds in length.  ("Please line up by the screen door" and "I like catsup on fish" were among the test phrases.)  Also, you've got to realize that a 10 second stereo clip of 24/96 material is over 5M. It's almost 35M per minute. When you include multiple sources in your test, that can add up pretty quickly and unless you've got a hosting plan that allows a lot of traffic, that may not be something that you'll want to do.

So, I agree that it's hard to settle in on a clip that's less than 10 seconds in length, but neither do you want to go with something that's too long.  That's precisely why I'm having a hard time choosing a good clip to use.  If we could go with a 1 minute clip, then I'd have all sorts of good options that are downloadable off archive.org.  I'm not finding any 10 second clips that have enough diversity in that time in order to be the basis for a good comparison between sources.

Amazon.com's audio clips are 30 seconds long.  Is that the right length?  If so, maybe we should use 30 second clips that are each composed of three 10 second tracks?

Also, we need to decide on what is the right testing method.  Unless you can demonstrate repeatability, you can't take the results we get too seriously.  In the vocoder tests that I mentioned above, subjects were randomly presented with audio clips and asked to rate each one on a scale of 1 to 10 and the same clips were repeated many, many times during the trials.  Different subjects had different ideas about what sounded good and they also had different ideas as to what constituted a 10 and what constituted a 5 and what was bad enough to be a 1.  However, the data that was collected easily showed which subjects could consistently rate the same material at the same approximately the same number each time it was presented.  No one did well on their consistency at first and it seemed to be a learned skill to be able to rate the same clip consistently each time it was presented.  The also found out that the results were more accurate when the subject initiated the onset of the clip.  Some people could rate more clips per hour than others.  Everyone would eventually fatigue and produce more erratic ratings if their rating session ran too long.  The report on the testing method alone was over 100 pages long.

I'm not suggesting that we need to go to these lengths.  After all, we're only trying to tell if people can tell a difference in broken-in cables vs. new cables.  That kind of test can be much less rigorous.  The test I'm proposing is to have three clips, one of which is using different cables than the other two (which both use the same cables).  The challenge is to identify which is the odd clip.  The test results won't be infallible and they won't put to rest forever the debate over whether cable break-in produces audible changes, but as long as enough people participate, we can at least develop a concensus here at ts.com.
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Offline balou2

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2006, 01:56:12 PM »
I agree with Chris.  Whatever sample it is, 10 seconds is probably not enough.  Sometimes it takes my ears that long to "settle" around a sound, let alone begin processing what I'm hearing.  Good call.
Yes, but there are other things to think about too.  If you make the clips too long, it can be hard to actually do an A/B comparison.  Linguists that designed the tests for speech intelligibility and speech quality for the vocoders used in modern handheld digital communications devices in our military and public safety organizations found that they could not get good results when the audio samples were longer than about 10 seconds.  Their tests were designed around phrases that were between 3 1/2 seconds and 4 seconds in length.  ("Please line up by the screen door" and "I like catsup on fish" were among the test phrases.)  Also, you've got to realize that a 10 second stereo clip of 24/96 material is over 5M. It's almost 35M per minute. When you include multiple sources in your test, that can add up pretty quickly and unless you've got a hosting plan that allows a lot of traffic, that may not be something that you'll want to do.

So, I agree that it's hard to settle in on a clip that's less than 10 seconds in length, but neither do you want to go with something that's too long.  That's precisely why I'm having a hard time choosing a good clip to use.  If we could go with a 1 minute clip, then I'd have all sorts of good options that are downloadable off archive.org.  I'm not finding any 10 second clips that have enough diversity in that time in order to be the basis for a good comparison between sources.

Amazon.com's audio clips are 30 seconds long.  Is that the right length?  If so, maybe we should use 30 second clips that are each composed of three 10 second tracks?

Also, we need to decide on what is the right testing method.  Unless you can demonstrate repeatability, you can't take the results we get too seriously.  In the vocoder tests that I mentioned above, subjects were randomly presented with audio clips and asked to rate each one on a scale of 1 to 10 and the same clips were repeated many, many times during the trials.  Different subjects had different ideas about what sounded good and they also had different ideas as to what constituted a 10 and what constituted a 5 and what was bad enough to be a 1.  However, the data that was collected easily showed which subjects could consistently rate the same material at the same approximately the same number each time it was presented.  No one did well on their consistency at first and it seemed to be a learned skill to be able to rate the same clip consistently each time it was presented.  The also found out that the results were more accurate when the subject initiated the onset of the clip.  Some people could rate more clips per hour than others.  Everyone would eventually fatigue and produce more erratic ratings if their rating session ran too long.  The report on the testing method alone was over 100 pages long.

I'm not suggesting that we need to go to these lengths.  After all, we're only trying to tell if people can tell a difference in broken-in cables vs. new cables.  That kind of test can be much less rigorous.  The test I'm proposing is to have three clips, one of which is using different cables than the other two (which both use the same cables).  The challenge is to identify which is the odd clip.  The test results won't be infallible and they won't put to rest forever the debate over whether cable break-in produces audible changes, but as long as enough people participate, we can at least develop a concensus here at ts.com.
Absolutely...SparkE, and excellent points.  I'm very familiar with the linguist tests and barometers used.  And while I do subscribe to the results yielded from said tests, I wasn't suggesting a 5 minute clip.  I think we can easily afford to increase our base duration from 10 seconds, to anywhere between 30-40 seconds.  I don't think it will need to go beyond that, but this will allow for aural-interpretation to be consistent and true.

I must admit...this entire conversation started by Mark asking why it's a good thing to burn in a cable.  An initial response was that "interconnect changes sound pretty frequently for the first hour or so.  The most noticeable points are after 1 hour, 25 hours and 50 hours".  This is easy to account for for the first hour- cables out of box directly to the system for the test.  I would wager that several audio passages could be sent through the cable initially, but if there is an actual "burn in" period, the sound will be constantly fluctuating until that process is complete (whenever that is).  So, are folks suggesting that there will be a simple "initial" sound test recorded, then a 50 hour "burn-in period" then a second set of samples recorded?  If we're going to all this trouble, we should take multiple samples of the chosen segment, and record them at various periods through the span of the test/burn-in period.

That being said, I'd think a very simple way to compare these would be to reproduce the sound waves in a frquency analyzer and lay them over one another for analysis.  If there is a frequency-response difference, it will be noted in the spectrometer...right?  This could easily be accompanied by, as Teddy suggests, a double-blind listening component, to which identification of unknown segments is attempted by a chosen group.  This, of course, may be affected by play-back equipment, however.  Chris Church mentioned NOT having good playback equipment, as did someone else.  I too fall in to that category (at least off of my PC).  It's just one of the other variables to consider here...hence the suggestion for inclusion of a frequency analyzer.  That could provide visual, undisputable evidence, and would be the common denominator for all participants, allowing for no variation in the play-back equipment issue.

Mike
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 02:05:01 PM by balou2 »
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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2006, 03:19:20 PM »
Wow you bring up some good points. I think a simple sine wave would tell you about distortion I can analyze a wave file and tell you what one has a higher content of distortion. It seems to me that we almost need many different files. Such as short samples of music maybe 10 seconds as Sparke Suggested and some medium length ones and maybe a full spectrum MLS wav file and some 1k and 10k and maybe even 100hz files I can generate the files at 192k or 96k or 48k at 24bit The only problem I have is I do not have these high end cables so I can do the tests with. So Sparke if you want good test files I can make them up for you all in the digital domain so they are not compromised and I can also give you graphs of each sample as a baseline for comparison if that helps let me know and I will make the files for you in the next two days give me a ftp or an email address and I will send them too you.


I can also do distortion measurements, MLS, impulse and thd+noise. And even reverb time to see if there is any preoperational differences. So please guys let me know if these files will be of any use and I will send them to whom ever needs them.




Chris Church


I agree with Chris.  Whatever sample it is, 10 seconds is probably not enough.  Sometimes it takes my ears that long to "settle" around a sound, let alone begin processing what I'm hearing.  Good call.
Yes, but there are other things to think about too.  If you make the clips too long, it can be hard to actually do an A/B comparison.  Linguists that designed the tests for speech intelligibility and speech quality for the vocoders used in modern handheld digital communications devices in our military and public safety organizations found that they could not get good results when the audio samples were longer than about 10 seconds.  Their tests were designed around phrases that were between 3 1/2 seconds and 4 seconds in length.  ("Please line up by the screen door" and "I like catsup on fish" were among the test phrases.)  Also, you've got to realize that a 10 second stereo clip of 24/96 material is over 5M. It's almost 35M per minute. When you include multiple sources in your test, that can add up pretty quickly and unless you've got a hosting plan that allows a lot of traffic, that may not be something that you'll want to do.

So, I agree that it's hard to settle in on a clip that's less than 10 seconds in length, but neither do you want to go with something that's too long.  That's precisely why I'm having a hard time choosing a good clip to use.  If we could go with a 1 minute clip, then I'd have all sorts of good options that are downloadable off archive.org.  I'm not finding any 10 second clips that have enough diversity in that time in order to be the basis for a good comparison between sources.

Amazon.com's audio clips are 30 seconds long.  Is that the right length?  If so, maybe we should use 30 second clips that are each composed of three 10 second tracks?

Also, we need to decide on what is the right testing method.  Unless you can demonstrate repeatability, you can't take the results we get too seriously.  In the vocoder tests that I mentioned above, subjects were randomly presented with audio clips and asked to rate each one on a scale of 1 to 10 and the same clips were repeated many, many times during the trials.  Different subjects had different ideas about what sounded good and they also had different ideas as to what constituted a 10 and what constituted a 5 and what was bad enough to be a 1.  However, the data that was collected easily showed which subjects could consistently rate the same material at the same approximately the same number each time it was presented.  No one did well on their consistency at first and it seemed to be a learned skill to be able to rate the same clip consistently each time it was presented.  The also found out that the results were more accurate when the subject initiated the onset of the clip.  Some people could rate more clips per hour than others.  Everyone would eventually fatigue and produce more erratic ratings if their rating session ran too long.  The report on the testing method alone was over 100 pages long.

I'm not suggesting that we need to go to these lengths.  After all, we're only trying to tell if people can tell a difference in broken-in cables vs. new cables.  That kind of test can be much less rigorous.  The test I'm proposing is to have three clips, one of which is using different cables than the other two (which both use the same cables).  The challenge is to identify which is the odd clip.  The test results won't be infallible and they won't put to rest forever the debate over whether cable break-in produces audible changes, but as long as enough people participate, we can at least develop a concensus here at ts.com.
Absolutely...SparkE, and excellent points.  I'm very familiar with the linguist tests and barometers used.  And while I do subscribe to the results yielded from said tests, I wasn't suggesting a 5 minute clip.  I think we can easily afford to increase our base duration from 10 seconds, to anywhere between 30-40 seconds.  I don't think it will need to go beyond that, but this will allow for aural-interpretation to be consistent and true.

I must admit...this entire conversation started by Mark asking why it's a good thing to burn in a cable.  An initial response was that "interconnect changes sound pretty frequently for the first hour or so.  The most noticeable points are after 1 hour, 25 hours and 50 hours".  This is easy to account for for the first hour- cables out of box directly to the system for the test.  I would wager that several audio passages could be sent through the cable initially, but if there is an actual "burn in" period, the sound will be constantly fluctuating until that process is complete (whenever that is).  So, are folks suggesting that there will be a simple "initial" sound test recorded, then a 50 hour "burn-in period" then a second set of samples recorded?  If we're going to all this trouble, we should take multiple samples of the chosen segment, and record them at various periods through the span of the test/burn-in period.

That being said, I'd think a very simple way to compare these would be to reproduce the sound waves in a frquency analyzer and lay them over one another for analysis.  If there is a frequency-response difference, it will be noted in the spectrometer...right?  This could easily be accompanied by, as Teddy suggests, a double-blind listening component, to which identification of unknown segments is attempted by a chosen group.  This, of course, may be affected by play-back equipment, however.  Chris Church mentioned NOT having good playback equipment, as did someone else.  I too fall in to that category (at least off of my PC).  It's just one of the other variables to consider here...hence the suggestion for inclusion of a frequency analyzer.  That could provide visual, undisputable evidence, and would be the common denominator for all participants, allowing for no variation in the play-back equipment issue.

Mike
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2006, 03:53:25 PM »
Not much to add other than:  I don't think 3 samples are necessary.  There's an ABX app for most common OSes, so anyone who wants to do so may use it in their listening.
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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2006, 05:41:26 PM »
Not much to add other than:  I don't think 3 samples are necessary.  There's an ABX app for most common OSes, so anyone who wants to do so may use it in their listening.
Yeah, but that assumes that you have a decent sound card in your computer.  If you have 3 files, at least you can burn them to DVD-A and listen to them on a compatible deck and it doesn't matter if the test is blind.  The goal is simply to identify which of the 3 files was made with the different set of cables.

So, it depends on whether you think more people will have access to a decent soundcard or whether more people will access to a DVD player that will do DVD-A playback.
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Re: Cable burn in?
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2006, 06:36:00 PM »
Im back, and can pick out a 10 second clip for you easily if you want..

 

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