Topic: Stealth low-sensitivity setup from scratch

[Emskidoodlepip]

Hi there—total newbie here glad to find such a welcoming community of tapers. I'm ever so sorry if I'm clogging the board with more typical newbie spam; I struggled to find similar up-to-date posts that would answer my question and I didn't want to necrobump, hence this new thread.

I'm cutting my losses (after too long selfishly attending shows and hoping that somebody else would put in the work and record for me) and finally getting into taping myself, and was hoping if anybody could advise. I'm posting in the Microphones sub-forum because it seems like that's the most variable part of a setup and I can "botch on" a recording device later, but I'm aware of my ignorance here so please do correct me here! Anyway, my criteria are:

• I'm looking for a stealth setup ideally. I'd love a more open taping situation, but I'm from the U.K. where many venues sadly look down on taping, so I'd rather stick to stealth;
• I'm also interested in low-sensitivity mics, as many shows I watch really push it volume-wise, around 120-125dB, and I often find myself watching from the very front;
• As mentioned above, I live in the U.K., which in my experience creates difficulties in finding good kit, since most recommendations for sellers on this forum, of course, are over in America—so sellers over here would be very appreciated;
• My budget is around £200-250 (in US$ that's about 275-350, I think?) for the entire setup, from microphone to storage device. I'd definitely really struggle to exceed that, but if you think that a particular bit of gear is worth the extra push I can give it a try!

I did see recommendations for not-too-dissimilar things elsewhere in the forum, but being sold on the other side of the world from me makes purchasing difficult, and with a differing budget perhaps I could do better for my money!

[DSatz]

If those are the actual sound levels, your hearing will be severely damaged by them, and by far the best favor that any of us can do for you is to convince you to stand farther back.

[morst]

• I'm also interested in low-sensitivity mics, as many shows I watch really push it volume-wise, around 120-125dB, and I often find myself watching from the very front;

If those are the actual sound levels, your hearing will be severely damaged by them, and by far the best favor that any of us can do for you is to convince you to stand farther back.

These concert taper types, well sometimes they wanna be where they wanna be, I guess???


EARPLUGS might help if there is anything left of your hearing!

I sure hope those numbers reflect peaks and not average- that's like aircraft noise or a hammer pounding a nail.


If you wear earplugs which knock off -30dB it still peaks at 95 dB.

[Emskidoodlepip]

If those are the actual sound levels, your hearing will be severely damaged by them, and by far the best favor that any of us can do for you is to convince you to stand farther back.

Thank you... I honestly appreciate the concern! I make sure to be wearing pretty serious ear plugs and I give my ears a good break from noise afterwards. Most shows obviously aren't quite that level, but bands like Sunn O))) or Swans won't really dip far below 120dB much.

That's definitely a reason why I've been struggling to find apt mics—many recommendations seem to mainly consider quieter shows. I'm guessing that versatility in a microphone from these types of very loud shows to quieter ones isn't really going to exist in good quality? If that's the case, I'd rather prioritise the loud ones, if that helps.

[if_then_else]

If those are the actual sound levels, your hearing will be severely damaged by them, and by far the best favor that any of us can do for you is to convince you to stand farther back.

Thank you... I honestly appreciate the concern! I make sure to be wearing pretty serious ear plugs and I give my ears a good break from noise afterwards. Most shows obviously aren't quite that level, but bands like Sunn O))) or Swans won't really dip far below 120dB much.

That's definitely a reason why I've been struggling to find apt mics—many recommendations seem to mainly consider quieter shows. I'm guessing that versatility in a microphone from these types of very loud shows to quieter ones isn't really going to exist in good quality? If that's the case, I'd rather prioritise the loud ones, if that helps.

A set of low-sense modded SP-CMC-4U (AT-853U) microphones should be sufficient for your purposes unless you're stack-taping at these ultra-loud shows. I've used them on some Part Chimp and Amenra sets (if only as my backup mics) and, at least SPL-wise, these bands are in the same league.
You might find these occasionally in the Yard Sale (even from Europe). But you will want to make sure they're actually low-sense modded.

I've used my MBHO actives (KA-300-NBs) + "Baby N'box" at a Stephen O'Malley solo set in June with great results. But, obviously. he wasn't nearly as loud as the full band. And the actives setup will definitely exceed your budget.

[Emskidoodlepip]

A set of low-sense modded SP-CMC-4U (AT-853U) microphones should be sufficient for your purposes[...]

That makes sense—thank you! I had been looking at the SP-CMC-4Us, but was mainly confused by SP's page as a newbie: I couldn't tell if the low-sense mod alone would give a sufficiently high SPL or if the AT8531/8s would be needed also, as the latter seem like they may put me well over budget, being almost as dear as the mics. Hmm.

[opsopcopolis]

Pretty sure the modded AT-853s will be fine, just make sure you use a battery box as well. I'll always rep the Church Audio stuff as well, but I know he's got a bit of a bad rap around here and is slowing down/stopping his mic production

[Emskidoodlepip]

Thanks so much for the help. So, a pair of low-sense (but otherwise unmodified) SP-CMC-4Us plugged into a single-stereo-input SP-SPSB-8-MKII in turn plugged into something like a H4n Pro would be an appropriate setup for 120ish dB shows for a 350ish US$ budget? Obviously the Zoom would put it over-budget but if it's the best low-budget solution for gain/ADC/storage in 2021 (how I mourn DAT...) then I'll gladly grab one on my next paycheque.

[if_then_else]

Thanks so much for the help. So, a pair of low-sense (but otherwise unmodified) SP-CMC-4Us plugged into a single-stereo-input SP-SPSB-8-MKII in turn plugged into something like a H4n Pro would be an appropriate setup for 120ish dB shows for a 350ish US$ budget? Obviously the Zoom would put it over-budget but if it's the best solution for gain/ADC/storage in 2021 (how I mourn DAT...) then I'll gladly grab one on my next paycheque.

Actually, the low-sense mod is built into the stereo jack.

You would need a separate battery box or preamp to go line-in on your recorder. Without the battery box / preamp, your mics might not be adequately powered for the high SPLs to be expected.

I've sold my SP-CMC-4Us years ago, but the pics are still in the Yard Sale (just to give you an impression).
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=182219.msg2229514#msg2229514

Have a look in the Yard Sale section of the site first, in case there are any current offers from Europe (mics, battery boxes / preamps, recorders).
I might even have an old Marantz PMD620 deck lying around somewhere in my gear locker.

[Emskidoodlepip]

Actually, the low-sense mod is built into the stereo jack.

I've sold my SP-CMC-4Us years ago, but the pics are still in the Yard Sale (just to give you an impression).

I really appreciate the detailed response and helpful pictures! Thank you for clarifying the low-sense mod—I understand now.

You would need a separate battery box or preamp to go line-in on your recorder. Without the battery box / preamp, your mics might not be adequately powered for the high SPLs to be expected.

Apologies, as research and try as I might I'm still struggling to get my head fully around the most ideal way to power something like this: you're saying that the SP-SPSB-8-MKII (or SP-SPSB-10?) battery boxes would be insufficient alone and I'd need another battery box for my recorder? I'd seen "SP-CMC-4U > SP-SPSB-10 > recorder" recommended as a setup elsewhere, so I'd assumed that that would work in all contexts.

[if_then_else]

Actually, the low-sense mod is built into the stereo jack.

I've sold my SP-CMC-4Us years ago, but the pics are still in the Yard Sale (just to give you an impression).

I really appreciate the detailed response and helpful pictures! Thank you for clarifying the low-sense mod—I understand now.

You would need a separate battery box or preamp to go line-in on your recorder. Without the battery box / preamp, your mics might not be adequately powered for the high SPLs to be expected.

Apologies, as research and try as I might I'm still struggling to get my head fully around the most ideal way to power something like this: you're saying that the SP-SPSB-8-MKII (or SP-SPSB-10?) battery boxes would be insufficient alone and I'd need another battery box for my recorder? I'd seen "SP-CMC-4U > SP-SPSB-10 > recorder" recommended as a setup elsewhere, so I'd assumed that that would work in all contexts.

No. With "insufficient"  I was referring to plug-in power provided by the recorder (e.g. via mic-in).
Any 9V battery box or pre-amp should do the trick. SoundProfessionals, Church Audio, whatever.

[DSatz]

Emskidoodlepip, maybe you would mourn DAT less if you had, like, 200+ decades-old tapes that you needed to transfer ASAP on your own time, especially with the dwindling supply of reliable playback decks. It was never a physically robust recording medium or especially, an archival medium. But yes, in its day it was a huge step forward in convenience during recording compared, for example, with the PCM-F1 + SL-2000 combination that I used before.

(OK, I now step back and declare this thread no longer adrift.)

[Emskidoodlepip]

Emskidoodlepip, maybe you would mourn DAT less if you had, like, 200+ decades-old tapes that you needed to transfer ASAP on your own time, especially with the dwindling supply of reliable playback decks. It was never a physically robust recording medium or especially, an archival medium. But yes, in its day it was a huge step forward in convenience during recording compared, for example, with the PCM-F1 + SL-2000 combination that I used before.

Haha, well put. I s'pose that I was ignoring the whole playback aspect which is rather vital!

[opsopcopolis]

I’m not sure the h4n is a great stealth deck. Looks very bulky and obvious to me... something with a form factor closer to a Sony m10 or a10 would probably make more sense

[nulldogmas]

I’m not sure the h4n is a great stealth deck. Looks very bulky and obvious to me... something with a form factor closer to a Sony m10 or a10 would probably make more sense

The A10 is crazy small and controllable over Bluetooth on a phone app, which has been a game-changer for me, since it can just sit in my pocket, in a bag, on a ledge, wherever, and I never have to touch it for the course of a show.

[opsopcopolis]

I’m not sure the h4n is a great stealth deck. Looks very bulky and obvious to me... something with a form factor closer to a Sony m10 or a10 would probably make more sense

The A10 is crazy small and controllable over Bluetooth on a phone app, which has been a game-changer for me, since it can just sit in my pocket, in a bag, on a ledge, wherever, and I never have to touch it for the course of a show.

I've been thinking about making the jump from M10 > A10 for a while. Only concern is it's more obviously a recorder (the built in mics are way more obvious than on the M10)

[beatkilla]

This is what i would recommend but you may find something here in the Yard Sale if you ask.


https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-4U    (make sure to get the Low Sensitivity option you absolutely need it)

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8-MKII ( you also will need a battery box)

Or post an ISO in yard sale.

Also would skip the zoom and get a Sony PCM-M10(or A10) Tascam DR-2d,Marantz PMD 620

Good luck

[dyneq]

The recommendations you've received so far are solid, but way over your budget. You may get lucky and stay within your budget by finding everything in used working condition for reasonable prices. However, I think you'll need to save up more cash, change your requirements, or get creative (build your own mics and/or battery box).

[nulldogmas]

The recommendations you've received so far are solid, but way over your budget. You may get lucky and stay within your budget by finding everything in used working condition for reasonable prices. However, I think you'll need to save up more cash, change your requirements, or get creative (build your own mics and/or battery box).

Or use a cheap recorder to start out. Even an old iRiver or something should do fine when coupled with decent mics and a battery box. (Those are limited to 16-bit, so you'd have to pay more attention to setting optimal recording levels, but that's not the worst thing in the world.)

[dyneq]

The recommendations you've received so far are solid, but way over your budget. You may get lucky and stay within your budget by finding everything in used working condition for reasonable prices. However, I think you'll need to save up more cash, change your requirements, or get creative (build your own mics and/or battery box).

Or use a cheap recorder to start out. Even an old iRiver or something should do fine when coupled with decent mics and a battery box. (Those are limited to 16-bit, so you'd have to pay more attention to setting optimal recording levels, but that's not the worst thing in the world.)

Good point. I would also like to recommend CA-14 cards > UBB as less expensive alternatives to the existing recommendations. I have recorded some very loud metal with that setup and the recordings sound great.

[nulldogmas]

I would also like to recommend CA-14 cards > UBB as less expensive alternatives to the existing recommendations. I have recorded some very loud metal with that setup and the recordings sound great.

Agreed for sound quality, and the price is right. The "between six weeks and forever" shipping time can be a bit of a holdup. (And CA-14s are less likely to show up in good shape used because they're more fragile — if anyone wants to try doing surgery on one to fix busted wires, I have a couple of sets moldering in a drawer.)

[opsopcopolis]

The recommendations you've received so far are solid, but way over your budget. You may get lucky and stay within your budget by finding everything in used working condition for reasonable prices. However, I think you'll need to save up more cash, change your requirements, or get creative (build your own mics and/or battery box).

I bought my first rig (AT853/Battery box/Tascam deck) for right about $300 using the yard sale. Definitely doable if there isn't a time crunch

[Emskidoodlepip]

Thank you so much, all—your friendly advice has helped me tonnes and I've definitely learned a lot from what people have said. I think that I've decided to take your advice and wait a little bit to save some extra money and use that to buy SP-CMC-4U (low-sense) > SP-SPSB-8-MKII > Sony A10 as a complete setup. It looks stealthable, great quality, and should have SPL that can handle the sometimes admittedly extreme volume of some shows I see. It's a shame that the SP products are going to cost a fortune in shipping and customs, and that in the U.K. the A10 seems to be quite a bit dearer than it is across the pond—so I might at least try the recommended ISO route, too. 

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8-MKII ( you also will need a battery box)

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but: I thought that the SP-SPSB-8-MKII was a battery box in itself? Are you saying that that's just a 9V adapter that merely allows the U853s to take that phantom power?

[beatkilla]

Thank you so much, all—your friendly advice has helped me tonnes and I've definitely learned a lot from what people have said. I think that I've decided to take your advice and wait a little bit to save some extra money and use that to buy SP-CMC-4U (low-sense) > SP-SPSB-8-MKII > Sony A10 as a complete setup. It looks stealthable, great quality, and should have SPL that can handle the sometimes admittedly extreme volume of some shows I see. It's a shame that the SP products are going to cost a fortune in shipping and customs, and that in the U.K. the A10 seems to be quite a bit dearer than it is across the pond—so I might at least try the recommended ISO route, too. 

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8-MKII ( you also will need a battery box)

Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but: I thought that the SP-SPSB-8-MKII was a battery box in itself? Are you saying that that's just a 9V adapter that merely allows the U853s to take that phantom power?

I should have wrote that backwards.....correct the SP-SPSB-8-MKII is the battery box i was referring to.

[dallman]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

[nulldogmas]

I haven't found the A10 to run hot when set to Audio In. Not that I've tried it for extremely loud shows yet, but overall it seems to have about the same level range as the M10.

[capnhook]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

Have you tried inserting an attenuator cable on the input?  Cheap fix for your hot levels.  Len can make you one.  I use the 20dB style.

https://www.core-sound.com/products/attenuator-cables

[daspyknows]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's.  You can find them regularly on EBay for $60 to $100.  I t is a great stealth recorder albeit without the latest bells and whistles.

[dallman]

Have you tried inserting an attenuator cable on the input?  Cheap fix for your hot levels.  Len can make you one.  I use the 20dB style.

https://www.core-sound.com/products/attenuator-cables


[/quote]
I have attenuators, but for the above situation, why choose a deck that runs hot when the OP is looking for a system to record very loud shows? There are better choices. The A10 is not the M10 in quality or performance.

[DSatz]

In addition, an attenuator of this kind is only a solution for overload in a preamp or recorder's input circuitry. It's no solution at all if the sound pressure overloads the microphones.

On the other hand, attenuators are a great, low-cost way of figuring out where overload is occurring and what to do about it. If your setup gets a lot of distortion on the loudest sounds, then as a test, try using attenuators. If the distortion goes away, the input circuit of your preamp or recorder was being overloaded, and the attenuators should be left in place; you've got the best solution right there. But if substantial distortion remains, even with the attenuators in place, then look at the microphones and their method of powering. (This assumes that your highest recording levels are below 0 dB, of course.)

[Gutbucket]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's.  You can find them regularly on EBay for $60 to $100.  I t is a great stealth recorder albeit without the latest bells and whistles.

One welcome whistle it does include is a small IR remote.  With the hold-control of the recorder switched on and all transport controls on the recorder itself otherwise locked, the remote can still be used to start/stop recording, requiring only a direct line of sight to the top of the recorder.  Alternately, IR control can be switched off entirely in the system menu if desired.  It's an effective substitute for modern bluetooth control from a phone.

[dallman]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's.  You can find them regularly on EBay for $60 to $100.  I t is a great stealth recorder albeit without the latest bells and whistles.

One welcome whistle it does include is a small IR remote.  With the hold-control of the recorder switched on and all transport controls on the recorder itself otherwise locked, the remote can still be used to start/stop recording, requiring only a direct line of sight to the top of the recorder.  Alternately, IR control can be switched off entirely in the system menu if desired.  It's an effective substitute for modern bluetooth control from a phone.

It also is a good match for this OP's situation. I have never used the remote, but I probably should try it sometime.

[Emskidoodlepip]

I am just reading this thread and am I the only one who thinks the choice of a Sony A10 is wrong for this setup? I have one and generally speaking it runs hot. If we are talking about really loud shows why a deck that runs hot? A Marantz PMD 620MKII (or MKI) is much better as is a Tascam DR2d if it can be found. Even the Roland R07 runs less hot than the Sony. There are other less popular brands too that are good choices. The Sony M10 is better too, but seems to be selling at a price beyond it value right now. I have and use all the decks mentioned, so I am not speculating, just trying to mention there may be better choices for the OP.

I have a bunch of Tascam DR-2D's.  You can find them regularly on EBay for $60 to $100.  I t is a great stealth recorder albeit without the latest bells and whistles.

One welcome whistle it does include is a small IR remote.  With the hold-control of the recorder switched on and all transport controls on the recorder itself otherwise locked, the remote can still be used to start/stop recording, requiring only a direct line of sight to the top of the recorder.  Alternately, IR control can be switched off entirely in the system menu if desired.  It's an effective substitute for modern bluetooth control from a phone.

It also is a good match for this OP's situation. I have never used the remote, but I probably should try it sometime.

Fascinating—I only saw this just as I was about to take the plunge on an A10! The remote functionality thereof I thought would be rather useful for stealthing, as with the size. Is the only advantage of the A10 over the DR-2D the fact that it is smaller and can be controlled by a phone? Both are handy, but when I can get a DR-2D for less than a quarter of the price of the A10 (and the A10 seems to be universally out of stock new and pretty much all second-hand ones going for way over RRP), the former seems rather more attractive...

[hipporu]

the price of the A10 (and the A10 seems to be universally out of stock new and pretty much all second-hand ones going for way over RRP), the former seems rather more attractive...

After March 10, 2021, we have decided to suspend accepting orders from our distributors to our company and accepting orders from customers in the Sony store.

https://www.sony.jp/ic-recorder/info2/20210310.html

[Fredman]

Seeing as we’re talking decks, thought I’d just post the family photo…

D5-M10-A10 by FredMan, on Flickr

[seethreepo]

Seeing as we’re talking decks, thought I’d just post the family photo…

D5-M10-A10 by FredMan, on Flickr

What no d6 or d3 ? Cmon now 🖖🏽🙃