Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: stirinthesauce on February 11, 2007, 06:35:20 PM
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In regards to this comment in the aerco thread,
I will wait for someone else to start a new thread about my new preamp... I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
I am starting this one. Truely interested in hearing what you have got in mind. :)
-Jon
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Do tell, Monsieur Church!!!
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In regards to this comment in the aerco thread,
I will wait for someone else to start a new thread about my new preamp... I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
I am starting this one. Truely interested in hearing what you have got in mind. :)
-Jon
I just want to make a really simple preamp with clip lights and a stepped attenuator it will have a burr brown opamp in its heart.. And a cinemag transformer for its input This is the Company that made Jensen transformers... I will make it so it operates from an external power supply 12 volts... The cost will be about $499 or so.. It will be a small metal case. with a locking power connector, and XLR input and RCA out and 3.5 mm out as well. I will make it as small as I can.. These are my thoughts so far, Simple signal path transformer based input. Maybe even have a transformer output option I am not sure yet. I will have a phase switch and 80hz high pass filter and a 20db pad.. That's what I am working on now my biggest challenge is getting the phantom supply to work right..
I might use Mini XLR connectors to save space and sell the preamp with adaptors to adapt mini XLR to full size XLR. Its all about size I want to shrink this thing down. I will have a prototype built with in the next 6 months. What type of 12 volt rechargeable batteries do you guys like to use? I want to build it around something that's out there and being used by tapers.
Chris Church
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Can you do 9v DC input??? I think the 9v WalMart battery is pretty common...
T
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Can you do 9v DC input??? I think the 9v WalMart battery is pretty common...
T
9 volt is pushing it... I thought you guys were all using 12 volt batteries?
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Sounds cool, Chris..... ;D
T+
Peace,
jk
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Can you do 9v DC input??? I think the 9v WalMart battery is pretty common...
T
9 volt is pushing it... I thought you guys were all using 12 volt batteries?
I have both, but my 12v is a SLA... I'm sure what the majority of those interested in this use, I just see that the 9v Walmart battery is pretty common and easy to find.
Small size is useful for stealth, so having a battery that is stealthy is also needed. Not sure of a 12v option here. Small size is also useful for weight in a bag for open-taping, but not needed. I'm sure you thought of all this already...
Terry
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Can you do 9v DC input??? I think the 9v WalMart battery is pretty common...
T
9 volt is pushing it... I thought you guys were all using 12 volt batteries?
I have both, but my 12v is a SLA... I'm sure what the majority of those interested in this use, I just see that the 9v Walmart battery is pretty common and easy to find.
Small size is useful for stealth, so having a battery that is stealthy is also needed. Not sure of a 12v option here. Small size is also useful for weight in a bag for open-taping, but not needed. I'm sure you thought of all this already...
Terry
What about two 9 volt external batteries..
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What about two 9 volt external batteries..
I would think one battery is better (easier to manage) than two if your talking about external. 12v should not be an issue with lightweight 12v lion batts now available.
Of course I know nothing of designing anything other than a headache so I'm inclined to leave the details of your design to you ;)
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What about two 9 volt external batteries..
12v should not be an issue with lightweight 12v lion batts now available.
Hmmm...any links/examples - I'm needing a 12V...
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Here is a 10-14volt battery I have used. It is 8800mAh.
http://www.batterygeek.net/Portable_DVD_Player_Battery_p/10-14-88_batterygeek.htm
They also have other voltage models
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$125 for a battery? I'd carry the lead instead.
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I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
For what it's worth I thank you for the time you put in to make quality gear for us. Don't ever feel like you shouldnt promote yourself or the work you do. I'd rather have gear made by someone who knows and tailors their gear toward our narrow end of the audio spectrum. Keep it up Chris!
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I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
For what it's worth I thank you for the time you put in to make quality gear for us. Don't ever feel like you shouldnt promote yourself or the work you do. I'd rather have gear made by someone who knows and tailors their gear toward our narrow end of the audio spectrum. Keep it up Chris!
Yep I agree...T+......I pm'd you a couple of months ago about doing something like this...Its great to see you trying it....I just wish someone could teach me how to do this. I would love to learn.
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Well, before this discussion got moved to its own thread (which is good), I had suggested external power, and the alternate suggestion, of an attached 3 x 9V power box, instead of putting the batteries inside. Personally, I think you should stick with full size XLR ins, as they are the most common, and avoids that "one more cable" issue. Me personally, I would love to see something with some really good meters on it. Missing my Tascam meters terrribly. +T for your ongoing work.
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Well, before this discussion got moved to its own thread (which is good), I had suggested external power, and the alternate suggestion, of an attached 3 x 9V power box, instead of putting the batteries inside. Personally, I think you should stick with full size XLR ins, as they are the most common, and avoids that "one more cable" issue. Me personally, I would love to see something with some really good meters on it. Missing my Tascam meters terrribly. +T for your ongoing work.
Minimal connections (ie one less adapter cable by using full size XLRs) is a good idea and adding meters instead of/in addition to clip-light would be nice... Of course, that's one more item that would increase price, reduce battery life, etc...
Terry
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I personally like clip lights and have gotten used to using them with the V2. They are exremely accurate.
I agree on XLR. Only one standard for a reason.
I think 9v is a great idea too, makes mating it with an easy lithium solution a breeze for field power.
Something I think could really be a hit with a transformer based pre is possibly an alternate signal path to give you a warmer sound, such as the Neve Portico silk option. Warm or Transparent. I also think a 4 ch pre would be a good option as well.
Good luck, Phil
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I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
For what it's worth I thank you for the time you put in to make quality gear for us. Don't ever feel like you shouldnt promote yourself or the work you do. I'd rather have gear made by someone who knows and tailors their gear toward our narrow end of the audio spectrum. Keep it up Chris!
Yep I agree...T+......I pm'd you a couple of months ago about doing something like this...Its great to see you trying it....I just wish someone could teach me how to do this. I would love to learn.
I learned how to do this the hard way.. When I was a kid I used to go "garbage picking" I would find TV sets, Toasters, Stereos.. I would get my mom to plug in things after I "fixed" them.... Some times there would be sparks sometimes they would work.. Then I got into live sound and here I am.. So if you really want to learn get a soldering iron and someone to "plug things in" and your set :)
Chris Church
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Well, before this discussion got moved to its own thread (which is good), I had suggested external power, and the alternate suggestion, of an attached 3 x 9V power box, instead of putting the batteries inside. Personally, I think you should stick with full size XLR ins, as they are the most common, and avoids that "one more cable" issue. Me personally, I would love to see something with some really good meters on it. Missing my Tascam meters terrribly. +T for your ongoing work.
Minimal connections (ie one less adapter cable by using full size XLRs) is a good idea and adding meters instead of/in addition to clip-light would be nice... Of course, that's one more item that would increase price, reduce battery life, etc...
Terry
Meters are great... The only problem is getting them to not effect the sound of the preamp, and not taking up too much space. Amperage is not a concern here because we are talking about an external battery.. But size is.. I do want to keep the size down. Full size XLR cables are nice. Maybe a multipin input to 2 XLR cable.. I just want it to be small if I can keep the connector size down I can keep the preamp small XLR connectors on the outside are very small but on the inside they stick out like a inch. So its give and take.. If I build a cable it will last a long time and it could be custom made for different lengths maybe even plug right into the mics directly, I don't know I am just thinking out loud..
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About the pre, I suggest something like 6-12V input. Use a charge pump circuit like LT1054 to generate an internal split supply. There is also a good inductor-based circuit in the DMIC-20. It uses Maxim MAX743. "Field power" really does need to be flexible.
Good luck on the project!
Richard
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I personally like clip lights and have gotten used to using them with the V2. They are exremely accurate.
I agree on XLR. Only one standard for a reason.
I think 9v is a great idea too, makes mating it with an easy lithium solution a breeze for field power.
Something I think could really be a hit with a transformer based pre is possibly an alternate signal path to give you a warmer sound, such as the Neve Portico silk option. Warm or Transparent. I also think a 4 ch pre would be a good option as well.
Good luck, Phil
I might have transformer options. One more like a Neve the other will be very true and flat.. Its really hard to do more then one signal path in such a small box.. I just have to get to the bread board stage and see where I am at, size wise.
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I understand the need to keep the size down - but perhaps there is interest beyond the stealth market...? Look at the size of the UA5...
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About the pre, I suggest something like 6-12V input. Use a charge pump circuit like LT1054 to generate an internal split supply. There is also a good inductor-based circuit in the DMIC-20. It uses Maxim MAX743. "Field power" really does need to be flexible.
Good luck on the project!
Richard
I was going to design it to work from 9 volts to 24.. I figure that way no mater what supply is being used It will work.. I use a simple opamp right now for a rail splitter its a Burr Brown OPA227P before that chip I will use a plain jane voltage regulator to get the voltage to regulate to 9 volts and then I will feed it into a pump charge for the +48 volt. This is in theory of course. LOL we will see how my theory works once its built.
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Right, I'm off the OT a bit. I'm thinking of things I would want in a pre. Like variable signal path (warm/transparent), easily powered, XLR/TRS inputs, and 4ch would the over the top. Not exactly small, which I think is becoming less of an issue. It's either tiny or it's not, in the sense of taper usage.
Great idea to take suggestions BEFORE building something. More should do the same.
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I understand the need to keep the size down - but perhaps there is interest beyond the stealth market...? Look at the size of the UA5...
That's huge if I had that much space to work with I could make it a coffee maker too :) If that is an except-able size then I can really do this with very little trouble. Once I finalize the design
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Right, I'm off the OT a bit. I'm thinking of things I would want in a pre. Like variable signal path (warm/transparent), easily powered, XLR/TRS inputs, and 4ch would the over the top. Not exactly small, which I think is becoming less of an issue. It's either tiny or it's not, in the sense of taper usage.
Great idea to take suggestions BEFORE building something. More should do the same.
Oh I want suggestions I don't want to build something no one wants that's for sure. I am not a millionaire if I build this people must buy it. So I want peoples input and what better place then here?
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I understand the need to keep the size down - but perhaps there is interest beyond the stealth market...? Look at the size of the UA5...
That's huge if I had that much space to work with I could make it a coffee maker too :) If that is an except-able size then I can really do this with very little trouble. Once I finalize the design
Well - I cant speak for the whole tribe here - but your smaller products have proven themselves - and I think you have generated some interest among the non-stealth crowd...
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I think in terms of portable size, the V3 is about the size you should aim for. Not much bigger.
But, I think there is always a ripe market for niche type pres in the gearslut realm.
If you make it well, they will come. It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
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Right - half a rack space is not too big...
Heck - I never really use DC...So that doesn't even matter in my world... ;D
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It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
Agreed here, remember Frank Lloyd Wright: Form following Function. Size should be secondary to performance...
T
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It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
Agreed here, remember Frank Lloyd Wright: Form following Function. Size should be secondary to performance...
T
Ok.. I will build it about the same size as the UA-5 preamp..
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It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
Agreed here, remember Frank Lloyd Wright: Form following Function. Size should be secondary to performance...
T
Ok.. I will build it about the same size as the UA-5 preamp..
Oh, I don't think we're saying make it XXX in size! I think you should weigh all your options when building this thing and see how small you can get it. The UA5 has a lot of functions that may not impact your build, like the whole ADC thing... That makes me think your unit could be smaller than a UA5...
Also, I think meters would be nice, but not necessary. Running with a clip-light, you can see where your pre is clipping and use your recorder gain to make up for it...
T
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It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
Agreed here, remember Frank Lloyd Wright: Form following Function. Size should be secondary to performance...
T
Ok.. I will build it about the same size as the UA-5 preamp..
Oh, I don't think we're saying make it XXX in size! I think you should weigh all your options when building this thing and see how small you can get it. The UA5 has a lot of functions that may not impact your build, like the whole ADC thing... That makes me think your unit could be smaller than a UA5...
Also, I think meters would be nice, but not necessary. Running with a clip-light, you can see where your pre is clipping and use your recorder gain to make up for it...
T
I was thinking about the output of the preamp it seems to me some people that are running things like MT'S are having problems with using external preamps. I was thinking about a output level controls as well as input level so that you could "tweak the output down" for what ever your connecting the preamp to. So you can run the preamp hotter with out over driving the input of the recording device. I know this is not an issue for interfacing my preamp with a recording console, but it is an issue for some recorders maybe I could offer that as an option.. I am just thinking out loud here...
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That's a good idea to use with consumer devices like the MT. But, would the variable output sound worse or better than just running the pre at lower level. In other words, which is preferred? Running the pre low or running it hot and attenuating it afterwards. I would guess the latter, but I don't know shit sometimes.
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It's all about the sound, so don't compromise that in any meaningful way for size considerations. IMO
Agreed here, remember Frank Lloyd Wright: Form following Function. Size should be secondary to performance...
T
Ok.. I will build it about the same size as the UA-5 preamp..
Oh, I don't think we're saying make it XXX in size! I think you should weigh all your options when building this thing and see how small you can get it. The UA5 has a lot of functions that may not impact your build, like the whole ADC thing... That makes me think your unit could be smaller than a UA5...
Also, I think meters would be nice, but not necessary. Running with a clip-light, you can see where your pre is clipping and use your recorder gain to make up for it...
T
agreed.... personally, I think the size of the UA-5 is alittle too big. If you can make a nice sounding pre with some basic accessories (clip light, output gain, etc) and have it be the size of the sonosax sx-m2 or the psp-2 for 5 hundo, i would be all over it. Just my personal feedback. otherwise, i'm really excited to see what you come up with.
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That's a good idea to use with consumer devices like the MT. But, would the variable output sound worse or better than just running the pre at lower level. In other words, which is preferred? Running the pre low or running it hot and attenuating it afterwards. I would guess the latter, but I don't know shit sometimes.
edit: meant latter
Well my way of thinking is this. Get all the "good gain" you can out of the preamp and reduce the need for gain in your recording device as much as possible because that is where sacrifices for size vrs noise floor are made. Because I can make a preamp much bigger then a small recording device, and with much less self noise then a wide open recording device. With out much effort. As I am sure anyone here who is into electronics could do as well.. Its not hard to make a quiet preamp when you don't have to shrink it down into a cigarette pack size device.
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To use a colloquialism the kids are bandying about these days, this thread has me all hot and bothered. Carry on.
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Well, this pre-amp talk is all fine and dandy, but what I really want to know, Chris, is how brave was your mother? ;D
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Well, this pre-amp talk is all fine and dandy, but what I really want to know, Chris, is how brave was your mother? ;D
She was not so much brave as unaware of the fact that these things might blow up when plugged in. After the first few sparks she quit plugging things in for me. So I had to actually start fixing them. Unfortunately it was many years later until I discovered the joys of the Variac. ( transformer for reducing voltage ) thus reducing sparks :)
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Ok guys....I hear a lot of talkin' but I don't smell any solder burnin'..........Summer is approaching......and we will need pre-amps.....get to work.......Oh yeah, hey Chris try to make it no bigger than a jelly bean for Jedi applications..... :yack: :yack: :yack:
Just kidding....Good Luck on the design Chris.....T+
And a big :coolguy: to nashphil on the GRAMMY.......T+
Peace,
jk
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I'll share an idea out of my DIY preamp dreams.
to save even more on space, why not just have a breakout cable w/XLRf on them.
so instead of soldering a jack in there w/some wires to connect to whatever..., just run mic cable direct from "whatever" inside the box. now you just have a skinny cable coming out w/the jacks on the outside. Instead of pannel mount, they'll just be straight up xlr.
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My apologies to everyone for making my intentions of this thread unclear from the beginning.
What I really wanted out of this thread is for Chris to explain his ideas for this pre and the thought process involved in his decisions. A thread for other designers to offer input for questions that Chris may have in his design. I'm sure everyone on this board has an idea what they want in an ideal pre and what bells and whistles would be nice (myself included) and I think we may clutter this thread with too many opinions and the practical knowledge gets lost in all the opinions.
I guess someone could start a seperate thread along the lines of "the ideal pre" and offer opinions there. Just a suggestion though.
Thanks everyone :) and thanks to Chris for being kind enough to discuss his design with us.
To add: I'm not picking on anyone, hell I even offered my opinion earlier :P I would just like the more tech savy/homebuilders to share knowledge and us non tech savy (myself) to sit back and learn.
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Well I appreciate the clarified intent of the thread but, after reading the whole thing, I can't help but echo a couple of things before I sit back and watch...
Meters: I'm generally in favor of them. seems to me that the Pre is the place were you want the finest control of your sound and so, that's where you'll want to measure it, yes?
Inputs: you can't please all the people all the time, of course. Me, I'm all for standard XLR's but, your custom multi-pin y-cable notion intrigues me. I suppose that if you made a cable for to order for each pre, that would work, but, I'd hope you'd publish the pin-out so that hackers could also make their own down the line (I don't see why you wouldn't.)
Power: yeah, lots of folks carry 9v batts around and 9v would be ideal for them but, if 12v is what it takes, then 12v is what it takes. Still beats all those terrific pre-amps that requires A/C power.
(extra) Inputs: It would be cool to allow a matrix circuit for say, an additional 2 channels line level input. But maybe that'd be best saved for the next box. Get one thing done right before you add to it, right?
Size: let function dictate size within reason. I carry a laptop half the time, who am I to tell someone to make things tiny and lightweight.
Hell, after making all those little stealth-able boxes, your eyes will probably thank you for working on something a little bigger.
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I personally like clip lights and have gotten used to using them with the V2. They are exremely accurate.
I agree on XLR. Only one standard for a reason.
I think 9v is a great idea too, makes mating it with an easy lithium solution a breeze for field power.
Something I think could really be a hit with a transformer based pre is possibly an alternate signal path to give you a warmer sound, such as the Neve Portico silk option. Warm or Transparent. I also think a 4 ch pre would be a good option as well.
Good luck, Phil
Hey Phil did you ever work with Terri Clark? just wondering...
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My apologies to everyone for making my intentions of this thread unclear from the beginning.
What I really wanted out of this thread is for Chris to explain his ideas for this pre and the thought process involved in his decisions. A thread for other designers to offer input for questions that Chris may have in his design. I'm sure everyone on this board has an idea what they want in an ideal pre and what bells and whistles would be nice (myself included) and I think we may clutter this thread with too many opinions and the practical knowledge gets lost in all the opinions.
I guess someone could start a seperate thread along the lines of "the ideal pre" and offer opinions there. Just a suggestion though.
Thanks everyone :) and thanks to Chris for being kind enough to discuss his design with us.
To add: I'm not picking on anyone, hell I even offered my opinion earlier :P I would just like the more tech savy/homebuilders to share knowledge and us non tech savy (myself) to sit back and learn.
I respect what your saying... I actually wanted to build the "preamp" you guys wanted..... Because its no good if its just something I wanted to do, and nobody likes it... :) So I want INPUT... I am not some big company who dictates designs and just builds what I want. I guess everyone already knows that. I am just someone who likes to tinker around and I like to be able to build what is needed for you guys. Hell I doubt if I will even own one my self :) I don't own any of the products I make because I don't have time to use them.. And every time I build something for my self I end up selling it anyway lol. So I respect what your saying about this thread but I really do want your input and anyone's input that will make this product better. Here is my outline for the product..
1- Flat frequency response from 20hz to 50k
2- Super low distortion
3- Hi pass filter with switch
4- Clip lights
5- Battery operation ( external??)
6- Size?
7- Cost effective
8- built like a tank
9- Phase switch
10- Mic pad -20 db?
11- 12 Stepped gain control
12- For gain I was thinking about 40db or so being the target but 60 is not impossible I just don't know how practical 60db of gain is for live concert recording..
These are my initial ideas but I am open to suggestions.
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Here is my outline for the product..
1- Flat frequency response from 20hz to 50k
2- Super low distortion
3- Hi pass filter with switch
4- Clip lights
5- Battery operation ( external??)
6- Size?
7- Cost effective
8- built like a tank
9- Phase switch
10- Mic pad -20 db?
11- 12 Stepped gain control
12- For gain I was thinking about 40db or so being the target but 60 is not impossible I just don't know how practical 60db of gain is for live concert recording..
Now we are getting to the meat of the matter ;D
These are my initial ideas but I am open to suggestions.
:coolguy:
Reading through everyone's posts this morning I started thinking about that Simpsons episode. You know the one where Homer discovers his brother who is a corporate exec for an auto manufacturer. Homer's brother wants a common Joe to develop a car for the people. Homer then proceeds to tell the developers everything that the people want. All the bells and whistles to make life more enjoyable in the car and more pleasing to the eye. When the car debuts at an auto show, it is an utter disaster and the brother's company goes bankrupt. Moral of the story, leave the designs up to the experts (which I am not ;D ) and hope for the best.
My .000000000002 cents worth
Carry on....
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Nice!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Homer_dreamcar.gif)
T
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I was thinking about the output of the preamp it seems to me some people that are running things like MT'S are having problems with using external preamps. I was thinking about a output level controls as well as input level so that you could "tweak the output down" for what ever your connecting the preamp to. So you can run the preamp hotter with out over driving the input of the recording device. I know this is not an issue for interfacing my preamp with a recording console, but it is an issue for some recorders maybe I could offer that as an option.. I am just thinking out loud here...
Chris, This is a limited issue, principally with the MTs, and I have one as a back-up so I am not dismissing it, but could there just be an output switch that would just be an xxdb attenuator of the output for devices that need it. Seems it would likely be smaller than another pot.
Sizewise, a little smaller than the UA-5, and sounds like it could be smaller than a V3. I don't think that most people want this to be a cigarette pack size device. Once you build it, you could always come up with a tinier, superstealth version, incorporating the external power, external cable suggestions.
Meters, I still want some nice long meters, where you can really see what you are doing. Too many of the current decks either have slow meters, or they are so compressed, particularly as you approach 0 db, that it really makes dialing in a lot tougher. I, personally, don't like running anything where I just have a clip light, because up until then, you are virtually guessing where you should be.
For gain/ padding, something similar to the combo sensitivity knobs/trim control on the R-4 Pro. Those really come in handy, and make life easy. I doubt most anyone will need more than a 40db range.
Definitely build like a tank, a solid external housing all the way around top, bottom and sides, with connectors and controls slightly recessed in back and front.
Thanks for listening.
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Very interesting discussion -- and a big thanks to Chris to stepping into the ring on this! :coolguy:
I will say, I really think you need to decide what you want to do yourself and what you think the best market is. Along the lines of the Homer-designed car, everyone will have different ideas on what is absolutely essential. I remember a few years back either here or on the Oade board, an engineer at Zaxcom came on looking for input on what they could make for a stripped down recorder (stripped down from Zaxcom's perspective ;) ) and how they could reach our market. They got info pulling them in 10 directions at once, and not surprisingly never came up with that small, 2channel recorder they were discussing.
Maybe you should think about making a couple different preamps to meet different market segments, using the knowledge you gain from your R&D. I'd imagine that the work you do on working out the internal voltage rails and 48v powering could easily apply to a couple different preamps -- one that is small for the stealth market, and one that is bigger to meet everyone's needs.
If you just want to make one and decide to go with a larger design, you'll be having a lot more competition. V2/V3, UA5, Oade modded all-in-one recorders like the ACM671 and HDP2, etc, etc. Some of those options have other functionality you wouldn't be offering, like an A/D section or full recording capabilities, so your preamp will come up short for those people not wanting multiple boxes.
From my standpoint, it seems like there is a open niche for a really nice sounding, very small preamp that people could use with a R09 or MT to do 24-bit stealth recordings. But that is a very different animal than the feedback you're getting in this thread. It seems to me there is a lot of interest in the PSP2, the Aerco MP2, the sonosax, etc that work in stealth and low-profile situations.
And making that major decision on market will drive a lot of other decisions. Small stealth box = miniXLR connectors, minimal metering, internal battery. Larger field preamp = full-size XLR connectors, full metering, external battery, etc.
Good luck, and looking forward to what you come up with!!
Also, as an aside, I'd really like to see the 24bit SBM1-type offering -- really small, internally powered box that does 24bit A/D. Of course, if we ever get that, then it would be nice to have some more ultra small 24bit recorders with digital input other than the MT. All of that is probably outside Chris' area of expertise, but I'd still like it!
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I think your proposed list looks pretty good:
1- Flat frequency response from 20hz to 50k
2- Super low distortion
3- Hi pass filter with switch
4- Clip lights
5- Battery operation ( external??)
6- Size?
7- Cost effective
8- built like a tank
10- Mic pad -20 db?
11- 12 Stepped gain control
12- For gain I was thinking about 40db or so being the target but 60 is not impossible I just don't know how practical 60db of gain is for live concert recording..
I think 40 dB of gain is plenty for typical taper usage. I only very rarely need to use > 40 dB, typically for acoustic or unamplified sound sources.
My $0.02: KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Which to my mind means:
- level meters - don't bother, we already have them on our ADCs / recorders
- Y-cabling / mini-XLRs - forget it, just one more thing to lose / forget / break
- power - stick to an external power source, preferably a commonly available lockable connector with 6v - 12v VDC, allowing for standard, aftermarket battery usage...no need for a separate snap-on battery compartment or some such
- variable gain - nice to have, not critical
- stepped gain - probably more critical if running straight into a recorder
- phase switch - BFD, I can always switch it in post; maybe more necessary for multi-channel stuff, though (but again, I'd just do it in post)
- HPF - nice to have, not critical (can always do it in post)
- size - as small as possible, without compromising sound quality
- output level adjustment - not necessary
As Todd R just suggested - pick your market and drive your design considerations accordingly. But in any case, my main point wit hthis thread: KISS.
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perhaps you could have just a couple LEDs showing the signal at a particular db and then a clip indicator - most recorders have meters where one could do the detailed adjustments but that would allow the user to at least get the pre in a somewhat optimal range
interested to see how all this pans out ;D
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I will say, I really think you need to decide what you want to do yourself and what you think the best market is.
But in any case, my main point wit hthis thread: KISS.
2 excellent points
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I think your proposed list looks pretty good:
1- Flat frequency response from 20hz to 50k
2- Super low distortion
3- Hi pass filter with switch
4- Clip lights
5- Battery operation ( external??)
6- Size?
7- Cost effective
8- built like a tank
10- Mic pad -20 db?
11- 12 Stepped gain control
12- For gain I was thinking about 40db or so being the target but 60 is not impossible I just don't know how practical 60db of gain is for live concert recording..
I think 40 dB of gain is plenty for typical taper usage. I only very rarely need to use > 40 dB, typically for acoustic or unamplified sound sources.
My $0.02: KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Which to my mind means:
- level meters - don't bother, we already have them on our ADCs / recorders
- Y-cabling / mini-XLRs - forget it, just one more thing to lose / forget / break
- power - stick to an external power source, preferably a commonly available lockable connector with 6v - 12v VDC, allowing for standard, aftermarket battery usage...no need for a separate snap-on battery compartment or some such
- variable gain - nice to have, not critical
- stepped gain - probably more critical if running straight into a recorder
- phase switch - BFD, I can always switch it in post; maybe more necessary for multi-channel stuff, though (but again, I'd just do it in post)
- HPF - nice to have, not critical (can always do it in post)
- size - as small as possible, without compromising sound quality
- output level adjustment - not necessary
As Todd R just suggested - pick your market and drive your design considerations accordingly. But in any case, my main point wit hthis thread: KISS.
The nucleus of the preamp the "guts" are going to be all me. But the outside knobs and switches are all you guys.. Because its not a big deal for me to say add a high pass filter or add a clip led or add a 20db pad. These things do not effect the performance of the preamp just add to ite flexibility.. I would like suggestions on gain switch settings what do you guys use. And if you had it your way what would you want in the way of gain "steps"
Chris Church
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Hey Chris, you should run this idea by the folks on Gearslutz location recording board and Yahoo Nature recordists. While the Gearslutz folks, many of whom are on this site will probably have similar requests, the nature recordists are also looking for a small self powered stereo pre. These folks are looking for field rugged, low noise and high gain. As well as the pro's and hobbyists, there are several film/audio school instructors who are always looking for inexpensive recording options for their classes.
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low profile switches that can't be accidently turned off if this device is run out of a waist pack, or, confined area like a pocket.
It'll save me from having to grind the switch down, and then having you replace it after my grinding blunder.
I might use locking toggle switches but they are freakin expensive. I might use slide switches except they suck.. So I might have something put on to the front of the preamp to protect the knobs like two metal plates. I am thinking about a bunch of things now. Once I get the panel layout done I can figure out the best way to protect it. I don't think this is going to be something that will fit in a fanny pack this will be something that's going to be inside a recording bag. I don't know how much I would have to worry about switches there. Any thoughts?
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I would echo Brian's advice of KISS. Especially since if you put everything possible into the design, then it's going to end up costing more and you'll be competing with higher level devices.
Some recommendations I'd make, all presuming you're talking about audience concert taping:
- gain -- 25-35db should be fine, even for amplified acoustic music, since the recorder/AD should be able to give you another 10-20 db of gain as well.
- metering -- maybe just a couple LEDs for signal present (-18db or so) and approaching clipping (say -2db before clipping). Separate meters for each channel
Phantom power -- selectable on/off. For just a 2ch preamp, I'd guess one switch for both channels would be sufficient
Gain steps -- again, users will probably have detailed gain available on the recorder/AD, so 5db or 6db steps should be fine
HPF -- personally, I like this option, but it may not be needed (post production). 6db slope, maybe 60-75hz
Mic pad (-20db) -- I wouldn't bother, many mics already have it availble on the mic
Inputs/Outputs -- seems driven by your market. Open taping = full size XLRs on both in/out. Stealth, not sure, not all stealth mics will be XLRs anyway, so building full-scale XLRs would mean converter cables will be needed with those mics. RCAs or miniXLR on output for a stealth preamp would be smaller on the outside for the user and on the inside for your real estate needs. No real need for full size XLR outputs for stealth (recorders probably won't be using XLR inputs)
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I have mixed thoughts on this...
Here they are:
Oade modified UA-5's are popping up in the Yard Sale for around $400 now. That gives you a good pre-amp plus an A/D converter and the ability to mix two line sources with two microphone sources in one box! That's a whole lot of features for not much money.
I see a market for a high quality (perhaps transformer coupled) microphone pre-amp that costs less than say $600. But that thing better sound real, real good, or have a bunch of features not available on similar pre-amps that are already available.
The old Oade pre-amps still retain their value, because of the sound and simplicity. The internal batteries and their use for supplying the super clean phantom power in the m148 make it unique and still viable, and sought after, in the taping community.
Ultimately, it is going to be price vs performance and features that will determine how succesful this product will be. If it were me, I'd incorporate a feature or two that no one else offers. I don't have any one, specific feature in mind, but for example only, something like a four line/ mic in, two line out mixer. Two transformer pre-amps and two solid state preamps in one box maybe. This would be useful for the 4 channel crowd. Perhaps you could make it whatever "flavour" the specific owner wanted, by swapping out op-amps or using transistors after the transformer side.
Chris, I'm glad you are listening to some of the opinions of the folks that are going to be purchasing this pre-amp. I wish you luck.
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...Perhaps you could make it whatever "flavour" the specific owner wanted, by swapping out op-amps or using transistors after the transformer side.
...just a thought, but having a model that is also user-upgradable would be sweet for the DIY crowd. Run a flavor for a while then switch out for another. Can this be done without sacrificing path quality?
EDIT: to say I guess real DIY'ers would probably make their own pre ;)
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All I can really say is that I love the input sensitivity knobs on the UA-5. Recording digitally into a MicroTrack, those things are a godsend when I compare it to my time running ATs > battery box > MT, where the signal was running much too hot.
I've only ever had the UA-5 for a preamp (and the MT is my second recorder after a minidisc recorder), so I don't quite know what to put forth in terms of suggestions. I've never run a separate ADC, nor do I really know what they cost or really what they are off the top of my head.
I guess all I'd really need in a preamp is a better built UA-5. I like outputting digitally, but if I needed a separate ADC, so be it. I like to record in 24 bit (even if it's not really 24 bit). The RCA jacks for patches are nice, though I don't use them very often.
But yes, there is definitely a market for the sub-$600 taper preamp. Make it well and they will spend. I greatly look forward to how this will shape up.
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IMO..., and in the tradition of keeping it simple..(sometimes), i'd stick w/original idea of a straight up transformer based preamp.
that is the unique part. that is the "hard to find" elsewhere allure.
we already have 3 "flavored" sub $500 premaps (that include a very good A/D in them as well, plus all the other UA5 bells and whistles).
the apogee miniMP is also available in this price range. and that will be hard to top (except for ergonomics and foot print).
a cheap 148 is what this crowd wants. everything else is already available.
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a cheap 148 is what this crowd wants. everything else is already available.
Yeah, I've been thinking that as well. The 2 main needs I see is good price/performance level in a stealth level preamp, or a lower cost/higher availability transformer pre (m148).
On the transformer pre side you've got the Neve portico ($$$), or you've got the m148/PSP2/Aerco MP2, none of which are too easy to come by. Then you've got the SD MP2/mixpre which isn't the best sounding transformer pre around. So the transformer realm seems like a market.
If you start to go into full size/full functionality, you've either got to top or compete with the high-end pres -- V2/V3, portico, MMP, etc. Or you need to provide more value and price/performance capabilities than the mod UA5's, and for that matter the ACM 671 and ACM HDP2.
Which seems to leave room for a modUA5 type of preamp that is in a stealth size, not full size, ie, good performance and value in a small size package. What's there now -- Sonosax, SD MP2, Aerco MP2, Nbox, JKLabs DVC, PSP2/PSP3, what else? Seems like these are either hard to come by or not meeting expectations.
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a cheap 148 is what this crowd wants. everything else is already available.
Yeah, I've been thinking that as well. The 2 main needs I see is good price/performance level in a stealth level preamp, or a lower cost/higher availability transformer pre (m148).
On the transformer pre side you've got the Neve portico ($$$), or you've got the m148/PSP2/Aerco MP2, none of which are too easy to come by. Then you've got the SD MP2/mixpre which isn't the best sounding transformer pre around. So the transformer realm seems like a market.
If you start to go into full size/full functionality, you've either got to top or compete with the high-end pres -- V2/V3, portico, MMP, etc. Or you need to provide more value and price/performance capabilities than the mod UA5's, and for that matter the ACM 671 and ACM HDP2.
Which seems to leave room for a modUA5 type of preamp that is in a stealth size, not full size, ie, good performance and value in a small size package. What's there now -- Sonosax, SD MP2, Aerco MP2, Nbox, JKLabs DVC, PSP2/PSP3, what else? Seems like these are either hard to come by or not meeting expectations.
I am using the same company as Aerco, They are very easy to come by and I have used them in the past..I just found out that they actually made transformers for Jensen who actually do not make there own transformers they just stamp there name on them.. Very interesting.. Its not hard to source transformers but they take a huge chunk out of the circuit costs.
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Personally, I think the demand is largelyfor a lower cost, easier to come by fixed gain small internally powered transformer based preamp, no bells and whistles needed. No hpf, meters, just on/off and maybe a battery meter...maybe not. Basically, an eaa that you can actually get without flammable battery cage . I run a 148, and I'd only be interested in this thing if stealthable :P
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4 Channels! ;D
Boy would I love to be able to afford the SD 442 ( http://www.sounddevices.com/products/442master.htm ). I think if it sounded nice enough there are quite a few who may have an interest is this.
Regardless, I think this (the 2 channel) sounds like a great idea.
Specs that would appeal to me:
-XLR input
-Mini-XLR or RCA out
-Variable gain via knobs, not switches
-Clipping indicator with maybe a bit of leeway (3db or so)
-External Power with locking ability and a range of voltages
-48v phantom power (why not always on? save room for an on/off switch)
Wish I knew how to do this stuff!
-ba
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ahhh...
(for concert taping), you guys will eventually come to the conclusion that 4chan AUD recordings suck...especially when its all getting "mudded down" to two to begin with.
I did a lot of 4 channel stuff in the past. my absolute best doestn' touch the good two channel recordings i've made/heard from others.
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ahhh...
(for concert taping), you guys will eventually come to the conclusion that 4chan AUD recordings suck...especially when its all getting "mudded down" to two to begin with.
I did a lot of 4 channel stuff in the past. my absolute best doestn' touch the good two channel recordings i've made/heard from others.
I tend to agree on the four microphones, but I have heard some very nice SBD/ microphone recordings that where done with four channels. Doug Oade made a four microphone mix for a GD Greek Theatre or was it in Kansas City show? Folks used to rav over it, as being the best recording ever... Anyway, I always wondered what the fuss was about. That one doesn't touch his two channel recordings.
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Maybe you're just no good at it, Nick. ;)
j/k. I may well come to the same conclusion, but I've got a lot more experimenting before I'm ready to commit to that. So far, most of with most of my attempts, I've liked the 2 channel version better. But I'm set up to get both my usual 2ch, plus a 4ch mix, so I'm out nothing but the effort for trying. I've done one Trey show where I much prefer my 4ch mix to the 2ch of the same show. And I'm really hoping I can get an outdoor 4mic mix of center cards + split omnis I like. I've just never been completely happy with the loss of soundstage detail of omni recordings, but I love the spaciousness of them. Hoping I can dial in that perfect mix of detail from the card pair and spaciousness from the split omnis.
Who knows, it may never happen, but just throwing up a DIN card pair and hitting record is getting a bit boring. Have to shake things up a bit! :)
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that thought crossed my mind.
then again, I was never able to do it right. IMO, that would be a very FOB stereo pair, and a pair of flanking omni's farther back.
but ... not worth the trouble for me.
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you guys will eventually come to the conclusion that 4chan AUD recordings suck...especially when its all getting "mudded down" to two to begin with.
I did a lot of 4 channel stuff in the past. my absolute best doestn' touch the good two channel recordings i've made/heard from others.
So far, I've enjoyed most of my 4-ch recordings better than either 2-ch source alone. I've found its absolutely key to run the center pair coincident, as this seems to cut down on phasing issues. Also far prefer LDs as the center with SDs near-coincident or split; really don't care for the results the other way around.
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I am using the same company as Aerco
does Reichenbach have a web page yet?
edit: Is it now CineMag? I think that is his kids company. The aerco I have is ancient and the cans are labeled Reichenbach.
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I am using the same company as Aerco
does Reichenbach have a web page yet?
edit: Is it now CineMag? I think that is his kids company. The aerco I have is ancient and the cans are labeled Reichenbach.
Cinemag is Reichenbach same company......Tom Reichenbach is the owner of Cinemag.......
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Chris, I think you should stick with the 2-ch idea. If it is affordable enough, and you want 4-ch, then buy 2 of 'em!
Personally, I like standard panel-mount xlr inputs, but wouldn't object to a breakout cable if it meant you could make all the other things fit in a small footprint. I think a signal led and a clip led for each ch would be nice...and one for power, one for low batt. Output w/TRS or RCA would be fine. As long as there is variable gain via some pots, it would be all good.
Very simple, but that seems to be what everyone wants.
:)
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gawd...I wanna bite her ass!
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gawd...I wanna bite her ass!
Hey nick you are so easily side tracked...I am gonna find that poster and send it to you...LOL LOL LOL.
I can't wait to see this preamp....
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gawd...I wanna bite her ass!
Hey nick you are so easily side tracked...I am gonna find that poster and send it to you...LOL LOL LOL.
I can't wait to see this preamp....
Yes this tread is not about ass, although I do think we should start one about ass. ;D
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sorry...valentines day is getting the better of me
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sorry...valentines day is getting the better of me
Yeah you should be sorry. I never hijack a thread with useless crap :P Oh since its Valentines day I might actually send your mics out today :) hehehe
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ok, enough of the red-heads ass then.
back to the preamp.
dumb it up nice.
small, transformer (jensen), xlr input, rca/3.5mm output.
dont need no stinking lights...except low batt. everything else is represented on the recorder behind it. no need to make extra time/expense for redundant features, right?
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i would rather have a lundahl on the front and a jensen on the out.
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i would rather have a lundahl on the front and a jensen on the out.
If the output is unbalanced and I don't see why it should not be, I don't think we need a transformer coupled output. Besides this is going to be a "small" preamp if I was building a rack mount pre I could put all kinds of things inside it. But I want to keep the size down. I don't want to use Jensen I would rather use the company that makes them.. Cinemag.
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ahhh...
(for concert taping), you guys will eventually come to the conclusion that 4chan AUD recordings suck...especially when its all getting "mudded down" to two to begin with.
I did a lot of 4 channel stuff in the past. my absolute best doestn' touch the good two channel recordings i've made/heard from others.
I think MMMatt did some truely excellent 4 mic recordings with his Mackie Onyx board.....
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Ok I am looking at packaging now what size do you guys want to see in a preamp. I am going to look around and find some pictures of boxes that I have seen and would like to work with I am thinking I can make this about the same size as the dpa 6000 preamp.
Chris Church
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I am thinking I can make this about the same size as the dpa 6000 preamp
That's a great size for stealthing.
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I am thinking I can make this about the same size as the dpa 6000 preamp.
With full-size XLRs, even?
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I am thinking I can make this about the same size as the dpa 6000 preamp.
With full-size XLRs, even?
Yep full size XLR connectors the outputs will be 1/4 and 3.5 mm stereo.
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Yep full size XLR connectors the outputs will be 1/4 and 3.5 mm stereo.
1/4"? 3.5mm? Don't sound like full-size XLRs to me. :P
I like the 3.5mm output - handy for those running straight into recorder with 3.5mm inputs. Personally, I'd swap the 1/4" outputs for full-size XLR. Might make the box a bit bigger, but IMO better to have outputs in the connectors people find most useful. Otherwise, anyone running into an outboard ADC or full-size recorder with XLR inputs will have to dork around with adapters (PITA, and one more point of failure) or replace their XLR interconnects with 1/4" > XLR interconnects.
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Ok I am looking at packaging now what size do you guys want to see in a preamp. I am going to look around and find some pictures of boxes that I have seen and would like to work with I am thinking I can make this about the same size as the dpa 6000 preamp.
Chris Church
Sounds like a great size, Chris.
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I like the 3.5mm output - handy for those running straight into recorder with 3.5mm inputs. Personally, I'd swap the 1/4" outputs for full-size XLR.
I agree.
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Yep full size XLR connectors the outputs will be 1/4 and 3.5 mm stereo.
1/4"? 3.5mm? Don't sound like full-size XLRs to me. :P
I like the 3.5mm output - handy for those running straight into recorder with 3.5mm inputs. Personally, I'd swap the 1/4" outputs for full-size XLR. Might make the box a bit bigger, but IMO better to have outputs in the connectors people find most useful. Otherwise, anyone running into an outboard ADC or full-size recorder with XLR inputs will have to dork around with adapters (PITA, and one more point of failure) or replace their XLR interconnects with 1/4" > XLR interconnects.
also a huge factor is the fact that the XLRs lock. i think the trade off for a little bit of space would be well worth having xlr in and out
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Yep full size XLR connectors the outputs will be 1/4 and 3.5 mm stereo.
1/4"? 3.5mm? Don't sound like full-size XLRs to me. :P
I like the 3.5mm output - handy for those running straight into recorder with 3.5mm inputs. Personally, I'd swap the 1/4" outputs for full-size XLR. Might make the box a bit bigger, but IMO better to have outputs in the connectors people find most useful. Otherwise, anyone running into an outboard ADC or full-size recorder with XLR inputs will have to dork around with adapters (PITA, and one more point of failure) or replace their XLR interconnects with 1/4" > XLR interconnects.
also a huge factor is the fact that the XLRs lock. i think the trade off for a little bit of space would be well worth having xlr in and out
A preamp does not need balanced outputs..... So why have XLR outputs?
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A preamp does not need balanced outputs..... So why have XLR outputs?
It's about reliability / robustness and convenience:
<1> locking connector
<2> no adapters / replacement interconnects necessary for those already running XLR (I don't know anyone who runs 1/4" out of their preamp to an outboard ADC or recorder)
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what about rca outs?
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A preamp does not need balanced outputs..... So why have XLR outputs?
It's about reliability / robustness and convenience:
<1> locking connector
<2> no adapters / replacement interconnects necessary for those already running XLR (I don't know anyone who runs 1/4" out of their preamp to an outboard ADC or recorder)
I have jacks that you guys could never break and they are reliable as any XLR connector.. Trust me. But If you assholes want locking connectors fine..:) I am charging an extra $5.00 for my preamp now :P I can see the whole locking thing. I can put them on my preamp I will also use a locking Neutrik powercon plug for power instead of the cheap power plugs you guys use :)
I got some -T'S I guess some people did not realize I am kidding.....
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I am not interested in starting one since I have been called out as some one that cares more about selling then helping users here.
Chris Church
For what it's worth I thank you for the time you put in to make quality gear for us. Don't ever feel like you shouldnt promote yourself or the work you do. I'd rather have gear made by someone who knows and tailors their gear toward our narrow end of the audio spectrum. Keep it up Chris!
I so agree. Thanks Chris T+
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what about rca outs?
Hey rca outputs didnt they go out with 8 track tapes? :P
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I think your proposed list looks pretty good:
1- Flat frequency response from 20hz to 50k
2- Super low distortion
3- Hi pass filter with switch
4- Clip lights
5- Battery operation ( external??)
6- Size?
7- Cost effective
8- built like a tank
10- Mic pad -20 db?
11- 12 Stepped gain control
12- For gain I was thinking about 40db or so being the target but 60 is not impossible I just don't know how practical 60db of gain is for live concert recording..
I think 40 dB of gain is plenty for typical taper usage. I only very rarely need to use > 40 dB, typically for acoustic or unamplified sound sources.
My $0.02: KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Which to my mind means:
- level meters - don't bother, we already have them on our ADCs / recorders
- Y-cabling / mini-XLRs - forget it, just one more thing to lose / forget / break
- power - stick to an external power source, preferably a commonly available lockable connector with 6v - 12v VDC, allowing for standard, aftermarket battery usage...no need for a separate snap-on battery compartment or some such
- variable gain - nice to have, not critical
- stepped gain - probably more critical if running straight into a recorder
- phase switch - BFD, I can always switch it in post; maybe more necessary for multi-channel stuff, though (but again, I'd just do it in post)
- HPF - nice to have, not critical (can always do it in post)
- size - as small as possible, without compromising sound quality
- output level adjustment - not necessary
As Todd R just suggested - pick your market and drive your design considerations accordingly. But in any case, my main point wit hthis thread: KISS.
Just halfway through the thread, but i agree whith Brian. Keep in mind my 2 favorite pre's are the Oade M-148 & the psp-2. Not very many bells & whistles. just a damn good sounding pre.
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That size sounds great. xlrs have many pros but size ain't one. meh, whatever works.
Oh, and I got the joke. +t
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what about this?
maybe just a MOD is in order.
:-)
looks like the rest of the work has been done.
http://beachtek.com/dxa6vu.html
transistor based inputs
level meeter
phantom
stereo mini output
(http://beachtek.com/images/products/dxa6vu_panels.jpg)
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what about this?
maybe just a MOD is in order.
:-)
looks like the rest of the work has been done.
http://beachtek.com/dxa6vu.html
transistor based inputs
level meeter
phantom
stereo mini output
(http://beachtek.com/images/products/dxa6vu_panels.jpg)
Well in order for me to mod something I would have to see the insides of it. I doubt they are using transformers.. So putting transformers inside that box might be a problem. I was thinking of the Sampson unit.. I could maybe mod one of them if the box was big enough to hold the transformers. There are lots of people out there making small preamps now.. It makes me wonder if I should even bother. I will make one and see how it goes.
Chris Church
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A lot of Co.s are making small pre-amps, it's true. But they are either poor for our purposes or quite spendy. The trick is to make one of quality that is still affordable and yet not an overreach of your resources. (Obviously it has to be worth your time...)
I look forward to what you come up with. clear the extra cooks out the kitchen and start simmerin up stew.
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if I can find one of these cheap, i'll pick it up and we'll have us a look-see
:)
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Let us know where you stand with this Chris. I've been in touch with Jerry from Aerco about buying an MP-2, but if you can come up with a good pre-amp with transformers I'd be happy to give you some business.
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Let us know where you stand with this Chris. I've been in touch with Jerry from Aerco about buying an MP-2, but if you can come up with a good pre-amp with transformers I'd be happy to give you some business.
I know I have to do this. Its the only way for my small company to get to the next step. So I have to build a professional balanced preamp with phantom and transformers ( only because I like transformers ) they add $100 to the cost of the preamp with out even talking about the case or the circuit. I want to be able to do this.. I will try to come up with something that is good enough to be considered for purchased by you guys. I want something that I would purchase.
When I design something that's what I ask my self if I needed a preamp would I buy this? Its hard to be objective because there are so many ways this thing could go. But I think the input I have received from you guys has helped me. And in return I will try to help you by building something that will not cost an arm and a leg. But give me some time keep the idea's flowing. This is a learning experience for me as well. I want to build one preamp and get it right the first time. With my other preamps things have changed here and there I have come up with better power supply designs I have had help from guys Like Richard here at T.S he says one thing to me and I am off trying it out and 9 times out of 10 it works for the better. I cant be changing this circuit all the time once its built I want it to work exactly the way I have it in my head. And for you guys not to have to send it back for a "new mod" Lets see what happens.
Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread and please continue.
Chris Church
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Thanks Chris! I don't think there is anything that I personally could add that the others haven't already mentioned. I also understand the cost and design considerations that you've mentioned. I, as well as others I'm sure, appreciate how you take what we ask of you and try to see if it works from an engineering perspective. It's your hands on approach to what the little guys need like ourselves ask that makes me want to give you the business and help to support what your doing. Take whatever time you need, and thanks again. ;D
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Ok, I would also like to get a sense for what battery you would like to see used for this preamp?
I have heard a lot about these Geek batteries? lol sorry I don't know the full name of the company they look pretty nice they have a charge indicator built in. If anyone can help me with the battery issue that would be great. I would love to use 12 volts because it divides into 48volts rather nicely. I know a lot of you use 9 volt but I was thinking it would not be a big deal to have a separate battery for the preamp. Am I wrong?
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Ok I have decided that the first step is to make the phantom power supply and have someone test it I will have that part done in the next 2 months anyone interested in testing it let me know... I am still looking for a battery suggestion, I want to use a 12 volt battery any ideas?
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Ok I have decided that the first step is to make the phantom power supply and have someone test it I will have that part done in the next 2 months anyone interested in testing it let me know... I am still looking for a battery suggestion, I want to use a 12 volt battery any ideas?
12v NIMH batteries, more reliable than lion IMO and charge relatively quickly and outlast SLA/LIon batts. better than sla and not quite as light as lion but still an easy battery to use with no memory effect and relatively quick charge times so.........
and is making two versions out of the question? i would want XLR IN/OUT, not rca outs
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hey chris how about these batteries.. http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php (http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php)
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i would rather have a lundahl on the front and a jensen on the out.
If the output is unbalanced and I don't see why it should not be, I don't think we need a transformer coupled output. Besides this is going to be a "small" preamp if I was building a rack mount pre I could put all kinds of things inside it. But I want to keep the size down. I don't want to use Jensen I would rather use the company that makes them.. Cinemag.
CineMag doesn't make transformers for Jensen. Reichenbach used to make transformers that Jensen designed, QC'd and then sold. Prior to Deane Jensen's passing the relationship between Reichenbach and Jensen who designed the transformers soured. The exact details are private but designs were stolen, Reichenbach's doors were shuttered and then they reopened later as two companies CineMag and Bauer Communications both currently making transformers that are variants of Deane's designs. Your buisness decisons are yours and many have said the quality between the products are similar, I just wanted to clear up the misconception that Jensen's transformers are not made in-house.
Just as I would purchase from yourself, Chris, instead of a company like sound pros, I will continue t use Jensen based transformer products and support companies that provide levels of support to customers and non-customers that go above and beyond. A quick look to the database of free design info at Jensen's page is enough for me.
Below was a post in a larger discussion around the formation of CineMag on R.A.P. years ago:
CineMag is a company owned by Tom Reichenbach (son of the late Ed
Reichenbach) who makes transformers. In the distant past, there was a
relationship between Ed Reichenbach and Deane Jensen. I know next to nothing
about his products.
Bill Whitlock
Jensen Transformers, Inc.
just my $.02
peace, chris
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i would rather have a lundahl on the front and a jensen on the out.
If the output is unbalanced and I don't see why it should not be, I don't think we need a transformer coupled output. Besides this is going to be a "small" preamp if I was building a rack mount pre I could put all kinds of things inside it. But I want to keep the size down. I don't want to use Jensen I would rather use the company that makes them.. Cinemag.
CineMag doesn't make transformers for Jensen. Reichenbach used to make transformers that Jensen designed, QC'd and then sold. Prior to Deane Jensen's passing the relationship between Reichenbach and Jensen who designed the transformers soured. The exact details are private but designs were stolen, Reichenbach's doors were shuttered and then they reopened later as two companies CineMag and Bauer Communications both currently making transformers that are variants of Deane's designs. Your buisness decisons are yours and many have said the quality between the products are similar, I just wanted to clear up the misconception that Jensen's transformers are not made in-house.
Just as I would purchase from yourself, Chris, instead of a company like sound pros, I will continue t use Jensen based transformer products and support companies that provide levels of support to customers and non-customers that go above and beyond. A quick look to the database of free design info at Jensen's page is enough for me.
Below was a post in a larger discussion around the formation of CineMag on R.A.P. years ago:
CineMag is a company owned by Tom Reichenbach (son of the late Ed
Reichenbach) who makes transformers. In the distant past, there was a
relationship between Ed Reichenbach and Deane Jensen. I know next to nothing
about his products.
Bill Whitlock
Jensen Transformers, Inc.
just my $.02
peace, chris
Wow I had no idea I just talked to someone over at cinemag and they were telling me they used to make transformers for Jensen... I guess that's not entirely true. Thanks for clearing that up. They should be careful of what they tell people. I feel I was a bit mislead by them... I am still going to check them out but only because the price is very good and the apparent quality seems to be there. I have always been a Jensen fan until I got off the phone with cinemag that day. I guess I have to change my mind now.. I am back to being a Jensen fan :) I just wish they weren't so expensive..... Its a real shame. It would be hard for me to build a preamp with $200 in transformers in the front end and keep costs down to $500 or less. What do you think of Sowter transformers in the UK?
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hey chris how about these batteries.. http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php (http://www.tekkeon.com/site/products-mypowerall.php)
They look really nice.. But the bottom line is price... I dont know if I am going to be selling batteries or having customers buy there own I guess that's also a good topic for discussion. Should I make this thing so you can use from 12 volts to 18 volts and you supply the battery, or would people just want it all in one package?? I really dont want to get into selling and shipping batteries anyway to much of a pain in the ass. What are your thoughts?
I would rather sell the preamp with the power connector built in and supply the end that has to be soldered onto the customers pack then get into the whole battery issue.. That way customers could spend as much or as little as they want on a power pack...
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imo, unless you have a solid reason for a specific battery such as low-noise and you want to make it internal (as the Oades do with the 148), then you are probably best going with this plan:
Should I make this thing so you can use from 12 volts to 18 volts and you supply the battery
I would rather sell the preamp with the power connector built in and supply the end that has to be soldered onto the customers pack then get into the whole battery issue.. That way customers could spend as much or as little as they want on a power pack...
one man's opinion, of course.
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imo, unless you have a solid reason for a specific battery such as low-noise and you want to make it internal (as the Oades do with the 148), then you are probably best going with this plan:
Should I make this thing so you can use from 12 volts to 18 volts and you supply the battery
I would rather sell the preamp with the power connector built in and supply the end that has to be soldered onto the customers pack then get into the whole battery issue.. That way customers could spend as much or as little as they want on a power pack...
one man's opinion, of course.
make that 2 men...
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i agree w/ external power.
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agree also
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Question would it be gimpy to run two walmart batteries so I can get 18 volts? this way the preamp would run forever what say you?
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Question would it be gimpy to run two walmart batteries so I can get 18 volts? this way the preamp would run forever what say you?
it would be a downside for myself personally, and i would think it would be for those interested in using it for lowpro activities would see it as a negative.
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Chris, what about making a power supply using the 9v NiMH rechargeables? They put out any where from 8.4 to 9.6 v DC each. Four would make a +18/ -18 vDC power supply. You could even sell an AC/ DC transformer to charge the battery pack. It would be small and relatively inexpensive.
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/9v-rechargeable-batteries.php
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Chris, what about making a power supply using the 9v NiMH rechargeables? They put out any where from 8.4 to 9.6 v DC each. Four would make a +18/ -18 vDC power supply. You could even sell an AC/ DC transformer to charge the battery pack. It would be small and relatively inexpensive.
Not enough current I want about 3000mA 9 volts are only 200mA this power supply is going to need current and I also talking with Sparke to help with the design. I think its better to have a big supply that will supply lots of current if needed. That way you can take this thing to a festival and not run out of juice. How much are these walmart batteries? The walmarts in Canada suck they dont have shit compared to you lucky guys in the USA? Remember power is your friend besides at 18volts x 4000mA this preamp will run for 24 hours with out a drop in the signal never mind 12 hours for a festival. I want it over engineered so that it kicks some major ass. If I am going to go bankrupt doing this I want to at least have people say hey at least it was a good preamp.. LOL
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Well, the "wallmart" batts are no longer available at wallmart. Ebay is the only place now to purchase.
What happened to 12v?
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I said it before, and I'll say it again: You really need something flexible, like 6-14VDC. Look at what all the other "field" gear runs on (Apogee, Grace, etc). That way you can run on 12V, like car batteries or SLA, on DVD-type batteries, or on *any* wall wart you can find. The extra cost to get a *low current* +/-12V from 6-14VDC input is money well spend IMO. I do like the idea of keeping the batteries separate, though. Battery technologoy is always changing, batteries wear out, and there are vastly different needs out there (eg., stealth vs festivals vs installed sound, etc).
Anyway, good luck with the project.
Richard
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Well, the "wallmart" batts are no longer available at wallmart. Ebay is the only place now to purchase.
What happened to 12v?
I am just toying with ideas.
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I said it before, and I'll say it again: You really need something flexible, like 6-14VDC.
QFT
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I said it before, and I'll say it again: You really need something flexible, like 6-14VDC. Look at what all the other "field" gear runs on (Apogee, Grace, etc). That way you can run on 12V, like car batteries or SLA, on DVD-type batteries, or on *any* wall wart you can find. The extra cost to get a *low current* +/-12V from 6-14VDC input is money well spend IMO. I do like the idea of keeping the batteries separate, though. Battery technologoy is always changing, batteries wear out, and there are vastly different needs out there (eg., stealth vs festivals vs installed sound, etc).
Anyway, good luck with the project.
Richard
It will be flexible. But I also have a chance to design something from the ground floor so to speak. Its great to have ideas. But in the end I cant please everyone. I just want to find the best way of doing this with having to cheat so much with a switching power supply. If I can convince people to run with two small battery packs and get 18volts great. This preamp will still run from 12v but It will run better and longer on 18volts. I am just playing around with ideas. Nothing is written in stone. I think two batteries in series is ok. But some might not.
I think with the price of batteries these days its not a big deal I am not going to make this product for the stealth market because I dont think to many people will stealth with a XLR based microphone.. Besides I already have a nice little preamp for the stealth market. I have decided that this preamp is going to be for the guys that have a gear bag and want a nice preamp to go into there nice recorder and run there nice microphones. I cant make this one product do everything. Some people say run it from AC as soon as I do that I need CSA/UL stickers at $50 a sticker approx it gets expensive. So I have decided it will run from some form of rechargeable battery pack that can be purchased off the shelf by the end user.
I am after all in the preamp business. I have no desire what so ever to get into supplying batteries and dealing with warranty issues that arise from that whole mess. This is what keeps my costs down and the retail price lower.
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I said it before, and I'll say it again: You really need something flexible, like 6-14VDC.
QFT
Well it would be great if I could make it run from the power of the sun :P But to be honest it needs a certain amount of voltage and its not going to be below 12 volts. If I lose customers that's ok because this preamp has to perform. After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :) Its easy to say it should run from sun flower oil but building it is something entirely different. I sold about 1,500 preamps and maybe 1,000 pairs of mics in the last three years. I know how to make something so it will perform to my expectations and I just don't feel that 6-9volts is a place where I can go with out compromising the design. I am not willing to do that for the sake of a few more customers, I cant.
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do WHATEVER it takes to make a quality and rugged portable preamp
it its 12v, cool. there are easy NIMH and Lion powering options available so........SLA's are a thing of the past......
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Focus young grasshopper
Remember K.I.S.S.
Keep it simple stupid......
don't over complicate it.
T+ for the work your doing.
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do WHATEVER it takes to make a quality and rugged portable preamp
it its 12v, cool. there are easy NIMH and Lion powering options available so........SLA's are a thing of the past......
Why are sla's a thing of the past ? I still use one for my sax with confidence ...
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I said it before, and I'll say it again: You really need something flexible, like 6-14VDC.
QFT
Well it would be great if I could make it run from the power of the sun :P But to be honest it needs a certain amount of voltage and its not going to be below 12 volts. If I lose customers that's ok because this preamp has to perform. After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :) Its easy to say it should run from sun flower oil but building it is something entirely different. I sold about 1,500 preamps and maybe 1,000 pairs of mics in the last three years. I know how to make something so it will perform to my expectations and I just don't feel that 6-9volts is a place where I can go with out compromising the design. I am not willing to do that for the sake of a few more customers, I cant.
Make your power supply however you want, I am sure we'll adapt to however we want to power it ...
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After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :)
Chris, the Lunatec V3 (and the V2, for that matter) run off of any 6V - 12V battery. many folks use a 7V or 9V Li-ion or NiMH battery (personally, I use a 6V lead-acid battery for my V3). do you really think that the phantom power supply in the V3 is not great? don't take this as a slam, as I'm really just interested in your opinion. I already have an opinion, based on over 3 years of using the V3. but my opinion certainly isn't as technically informed as your opinion.
on the the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that one of the reasons why the oade m148 sounds so great is the internal batteries that supply 48V directly, thus a very clean source of power with no DC-DC voltage conversions.
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After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :)
Chris, the Lunatec V3 (and the V2, for that matter) run off of any 6V - 12V battery. many folks use a 7V or 9V Li-ion or NiMH battery (personally, I use a 6V lead-acid battery for my V3). do you really think that the phantom power supply in the V3 is not great? don't take this as a slam, as I'm really just interested in your opinion. I already have an opinion, based on over 3 years of using the V3. but my opinion certainly isn't as technically informed as your opinion.
on the the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that one of the reasons why the oade m148 sounds so great is the internal batteries that supply 48V directly, thus a very clean source of power with no DC-DC voltage conversions.
I really dont know if the V3 is good or not I have never tested or used a v3 I can say however the amount of "voodoo" it takes to turn 6 volts into 48 is crazy.. I personally dont think its a good idea. But that's just me.
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I really dont know if the V3 is good or not I have never tested or used a v3 I can say however the amount of "voodoo" it takes to turn 6 volts into 48 is crazy.. I personally dont think its a good idea. But that's just me.
Seems to me, the more voodoo that you do, the more this thing will cost.
Make your power supply however you want, I am sure we'll adapt to however we want to power it ...
Yup.
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I have taken the first step and ordered the transformers... They should be here next week some time. Thats the easy part lol.
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After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :)
Chris, the Lunatec V3 (and the V2, for that matter) run off of any 6V - 12V battery. many folks use a 7V or 9V Li-ion or NiMH battery (personally, I use a 6V lead-acid battery for my V3). do you really think that the phantom power supply in the V3 is not great? don't take this as a slam, as I'm really just interested in your opinion. I already have an opinion, based on over 3 years of using the V3. but my opinion certainly isn't as technically informed as your opinion.
on the the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that one of the reasons why the oade m148 sounds so great is the internal batteries that supply 48V directly, thus a very clean source of power with no DC-DC voltage conversions.
I really dont know if the V3 is good or not I have never tested or used a v3 I can say however the amount of "voodoo" it takes to turn 6 volts into 48 is crazy.. I personally dont think its a good idea. But that's just me.
most of profesional eng/efp gear runs 6-18 v
the sqn will go down to 5 without any degration on mic preformers with 48 v as long you suply the current
not that it the best place switching up converters but compromise is the the name of the game sometimes
thesd mix pre use 3.5 v internal bat for 48 and it sound decent to my ears with schopses stocked in
if you build something at least make it in the range of 11-18 v to take benefit from litium ion cells which are
3,7 nominal and when complete charge are 4.2-4.4
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After all whats the biggest complaint with preamps that run from a 9 volt source? The phantom supply sucks... So I need more power Scottie :)
Chris, the Lunatec V3 (and the V2, for that matter) run off of any 6V - 12V battery. many folks use a 7V or 9V Li-ion or NiMH battery (personally, I use a 6V lead-acid battery for my V3). do you really think that the phantom power supply in the V3 is not great? don't take this as a slam, as I'm really just interested in your opinion. I already have an opinion, based on over 3 years of using the V3. but my opinion certainly isn't as technically informed as your opinion.
on the the flip side, a lot of people will tell you that one of the reasons why the oade m148 sounds so great is the internal batteries that supply 48V directly, thus a very clean source of power with no DC-DC voltage conversions.
I really dont know if the V3 is good or not I have never tested or used a v3 I can say however the amount of "voodoo" it takes to turn 6 volts into 48 is crazy.. I personally dont think its a good idea. But that's just me.
most of profesional eng/efp gear runs 6-18 v
the sqn will go down to 5 without any degration on mic preformers with 48 v as long you suply the current
not that it the best place switching up converters but compromise is the the name of the game sometimes
thesd mix pre use 3.5 v internal bat for 48 and it sound decent to my ears with schopses stocked in
if you build something at least make it in the range of 11-18 v to take benefit from litium ion cells which are
3,7 nominal and when complete charge are 4.2-4.4
I dont really want to make something that is like what most professional gear. I want to make something that is the best I can build and has no compromises as far as operating voltage goes. Now that I have some help with the power supply I am pretty confident that this will happen. I have a target voltage range of 9 volts to 15 or 18volts. This is where this product is going to be designed. I could try to make a product that would run off anything, but at some point in time I just have to call it a day and do what I feel is best.
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IMO if the unit requires 15 or 18 volts you will seriously limit the potential market.
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IMO if the unit requires 15 or 18 volts you will seriously limit the potential market.
9 TO 15 OR 9 to 18 volts not 15 to 18 :) Sorry Its confusing.
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IMO if the unit requires 15 or 18 volts you will seriously limit the potential market.
9 TO 15 OR 9 to 18 volts not 15 to 18 :) Sorry Its confusing.
thanks for the clarification.
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I was just wondering how is the progress on this project.....
inquiring minds want to know.....
thanks again for all you do Chris...
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I was just wondering how is the progress on this project.....
inquiring minds want to know.....
thanks again for all you do Chris...
I am going to get the rest of the parts some time this month. Brad is working on the power supply no small task... And I am working on the preamp section "the easy part" over the next month or so.
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Sweet...
Very interested in watching this progress.
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Hey guys, I know I'm coming into this rather late, but I will post my opinions nonetheless:
I like a high-pass. Many would rather do it in post, but in a boomy room you may as well cut the bass so you can fill the "meat" of your recording with usable data. Why cut the top 5 or 10 db from your wav and then boost everything back up in post? It is just as easy and no less destructive to add some bass if need be, but you may as well go for the gold if you know the room. Maybe 120-150hz w/ a 12db slope.
When I think of a -20db pad I think of a pre that is not geared toward concert recording, or one with built-in adc so you can take a board-feed if need be and use the unit just for the adc. This may help you appeal to the nature recording-dictation-ribbon mic using crowd and if so, I'm not offended by it.
Gain can be in steps, but it is easier to fine tune from the pre. I'm assuming using steps will help quality and that is all good. Maybe 2 or 3 db steps in the most usable areas and 5db in the extremes. However fine tuning with your recorder makes your end result subject to the quality of that pot right? So wouldn't it make sense to have that control onboard the pre and leave the recorder at unity?
I like meters on the pre, but IMO a -3db clip light for each channel should be minimum. Unless you are monitoring you could be clipping the signal and never know it. The recorder will tell you the level but not if it is clipping before it gets there. Maybe if the pre's clip freakishly high so this is never a concern all is good, but I still vote for some blinking lights. ;D
Flexible power is nice... 12v is hard to come by these days except bricks, and by keeping in multiples of 9v you should be rockin. I would not recommend getting into the battery business though... why deal with the warranty and liability of the power source? I think you are on track with just including a couple connectors for diy use. A power transformer for A/C use would be a nice option for those of us who would use this as part of a multi rig when we have power.
I would love to see a headphone amp also... clean is less important than loud IMO. 250mv is about right. I often will tweak my mic positioning during the first song of a show based on my monitoring.
Ergonomics: I think you would appeal to more markets if you can make this somewhat modular. That is to say, if you make it 1/3 rack size, then come up with a rack mount system so you can marry 3 together in a rack for studio/live use. Also the placement of the ins/outs should be on the back so you don't have to worry about your cables getting in the way of your controls. All controls on the front is best for bag (or rack) use. If you like the modular idea, keep the sides clean. Unless it is stealth-sized xlr in/out is best, but for a short run to an adc unbalanced is fine IMO so 1/4" outs should be cool. I would also put an 1/8" stereo jack for use without outboard adc to a small recorder that is either a patcher or main unit.
There was some discussion of 4 chan, and I assume you are set on doing this as 2. That is cool and wise. My opinion on 4 mics is mixed (pardon the pun) and I have done it certainly, but in most cases it was as a multitrack. There is one particular recording that I did as a 4 mic live mix that I really like, but it was done with a pair at center stage and a pair of omni's split to the stage corners for crowd response. It was dumb luck that this recording turned out how it did because I had troubles getting the board feed that I planned on mixing in. On top of that, my multitrack failed and it was just my 4 track live mix to my jb3 that survived. I would try it again, but as soon as you get any front to back distance between the mics you have to worry about delay and that is multitrack land as far as I'm concerned. That all being said, if you were to dive into a 4 chan pre, and wanted to do it right, you could do the first 2 channels as you are now, but make chan 3 and 4 a simpler non-transformer circuit (fast,transparent op-amps), with combo neutriks, a mono switch, and a polarity reverse switch. In addition you should have 250+mv headphone w/level, individual monitoring for each chan, -20 db pad for a line-level signal, individual meters, an overall meter, overall balance, main out level control, 4 mono outs as well as a 2chan mix, and with a little more thought I could come up with a few more things that would make this "usable" in my eyes as a small format matrix mixer. Truth is though, it is a rare occasion that you need portability for running a matrix, and running a 4 mic mix is not the holly grail. Keeping it simple may be cool for those times when you are at the venue and decide last minute to do a matrix instead of ambient. So if you do it, I would just keep it as 2 trs ins, and a stereo level control (on the front!) would be fine. A beefy headphone amp and some sort of level meters would still be important to me. Those wanting a 3/4 mic mix could use a second pre into the trs jacks.
However you slice it Chris I think it is great that you are opening your ears and your mind to the thoughts of the community. Thanks for doing that, and good luck with the project. I'm going to be very anxious to hear the comps as they start rolling out!
My .02
Matt
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I just wanted to let you know that I have SparkE! doing the design of the power supply and helping with the new preamp design as well.. I am very grateful to Brad and our new partnership in this venture. We were talking today and we think that were going to also design a mini preamp that is the same as the 9100 preamp but with balanced inputs and phantom power. In the same size format as the 9100 this will be perfect for stealth.. We are also going to make the new transformer based preamp about the same size as the UA-5. Brad has tentatively spec'ed the input voltage of the new transformer preamp to be from 4 volts to 15 volts... So a wide variety of external power sources can be used... I will keep you guys up to date as more develops. I will have the basic preamp circuit done in the next month..
Chris
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:coolguy:
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Yup, good news...
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I just wanted to let you know that I have SparkE! doing the design of the power supply and helping with the new preamp design as well.. I am very grateful to Brad and our new partnership in this venture. We were talking today and we think that were going to also design a mini preamp that is the same as the 9100 preamp but with balanced inputs and phantom power. In the same size format as the 9100 this will be perfect for stealth.. We are also going to make the new transformer based preamp about the same size as the UA-5. Brad has tentatively spec'ed the input voltage of the new transformer preamp to be from 4 volts to 15 volts... So a wide variety of external power sources can be used... I will keep you guys up to date as more develops. I will have the basic preamp circuit done in the next month..
Chris
Very Cool!
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awesome fellas!
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+t
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can't wait to own one!
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+t
can't wait to own one!
-rj
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wft if "-rj" ?
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that's me.
signing my name in brief...
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aaaahhhhh.
":_)
and thats me w/a cowlick and broken nose.
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aaaahhhhh.
":_)
and thats me w/a cowlick and broken nose.
Hey this is supposed to be about ME not you guys!!! :P
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Hey this is supposed to be about ME not you guys!!! :P
well, I did give you a +t and threaten to buy a product... :P
how long before this is called for?
"this thread is useless without pics"
Several months, I assume. Gotta admit, I can't wait for some eyecandy on this.
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Hey this is supposed to be about ME not you guys!!! :P
well, I did give you a +t and threaten to buy a product... :P
how long before this is called for?
"this thread is useless without pics"
Several months, I assume. Gotta admit, I can't wait for some eyecandy on this.
There will be pictures when its built :)
Chros
I mean
CHRIS :) I type way to fast sometimes..... ::)
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Pardon my impatient chatter.
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Hey this is supposed to be about ME not you guys!!! :P
well, I did give you a +t and threaten to buy a product... :P
how long before this is called for?
"this thread is useless without pics"
Several months, I assume. Gotta admit, I can't wait for some eyecandy on this.
There will be pictures when its built :)
Chros
wtf is Chros? :yack:
cm
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No worries, I +rj'd you all.
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;D
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I am SUPA stoked for this thing. and the external power voltage is nice and low. I can use the 7.2v@3000mah NIMH RC batts I have to power this sucka. I may just hold off on trading my v2 and keep it and save up the $$ to buy one of these in the very near future :)
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Yep, I am all about one of these as well. Let us know when you are ready for orders, I am sure there a few of us dying to spend some money with you ;D
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Yep, I am all about one of these as well. Let us know when you are ready for orders, I am sure there a few of us dying to spend some money with you ;D
indeed... let us know when you're starting the waiting list....
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you all can just form a line behind me if you'd like.
:)
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you all can just form a line behind me if you'd like.
:)
Nick this isn't that kind of web forum :o
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Besides, I'm the one who needs a battery powered pre muchly...
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There are going to be two preamps.. One we think will be the size of the 9100 but with balanced inputs/phantom power and last but not least 60 db of gain. This preamp will have a 5 pin mini XLR that breaks out into a full size pair of XLR cables. The output will be a single unbalancd mini xlr.
The other preamp is going to be our full size preamp that will be the size of a UA-5 it will have two operational input voltage ranges 1.5 to 6 volts and 6 volts to 15. This is according to Spark'e who is designing the power supply as we speak.
Chris
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As soon as we have the prototype done for the stealth preamp we will be taking orders. The first set of orders hopefully will cover our board design costs and etching. There will be about a 1 month turnaround for the stealth preamp. The transformer based preamp will be exactly the same as far as wait times.
We will have two preamps to "float" around to the users here.
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Thanks for the news, Chris. Look forward to buying one of these.
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will the interconnects be made with that neat vanderhall cable? :P ;)
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will the interconnects be made with that neat vanderhall cable? :P ;)
No I am going to be using HOOBLY GOOBLY cable its the best out there.. I have tried others but nothing seems to broaden the clown stage more the HB cable does. Its very expensive it will cost about 3x the price of the preamp but it will be well worth it. I will also be using the SOFAKING connectors because they are SOFAKING GOOD.
I will also be selling to HOOBLY GOOBLY "WOOD MIND DISKS" They will sit under the preamp and provide less resonance and they will help with the dynamic flux capacitor sound thinggy. But for the stealth model it might look like you have some hockey pucks in your pants, so we are working on a smaller design for stealth use.
In Canada we will actually be keeping the size of the HB "WOOD MIND DISKS" Because after a good taping in Canada, we like to play a few rounds of hockey so what better use for the HB "WOOD MIND DISKS" We feel the main product advantage of HB "WOOD MIND DISKS" Is the ability to use them to: A- Stop resonance in your new preamp, and B- Be able to be used as a hockey puck.
This option will be available to the USA but only to States where it actually snows.
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hoobly goobly, eh? i'll have to do some research before i commit. you understand don't ya chris?
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The other preamp is going to be our full size preamp that will be the size of a UA-5 it will have two operational input voltage ranges 1.5 to 6 volts and 6 volts to 15. This is according to Spark'e who is designing the power supply as we speak.
I've still not given up on making it work from 1.2 V to 15 V all in one model, but I'm concerned with making sure that there is the smallest amount of noise and ripple on the power supply output as possible. If we have to go to two models, it will be to reduce the noise and ripple on the power supply. If we have to go to two models, it will probably be 1.2 V to 6 V for one model and 4 V to 15 V for the other model.
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I was all set to buy this pre but I thought you said you were melting down Canadian beer caps to make the conductors?
If not, that's a deal breaker for me.
fantastic idea! that way he can use the goop underneath the bottle caps to cover all of his "secret" components! just have to figure out a way to remove the goop from the metal.
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There are going to be two preamps.. One we think will be the size of the 9100 but with balanced inputs/phantom power and last but not least 60 db of gain. This preamp will have a 5 pin mini XLR that breaks out into a full size pair of XLR cables. The output will be a single unbalancd mini xlr.
The other preamp is going to be our full size preamp that will be the size of a UA-5 it will have two operational input voltage ranges 1.5 to 6 volts and 6 volts to 15. This is according to Spark'e who is designing the power supply as we speak.
Chris
is that 60db fixed? or adjustable?
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There are going to be two preamps.. One we think will be the size of the 9100 but with balanced inputs/phantom power and last but not least 60 db of gain. This preamp will have a 5 pin mini XLR that breaks out into a full size pair of XLR cables. The output will be a single unbalancd mini xlr.
The other preamp is going to be our full size preamp that will be the size of a UA-5 it will have two operational input voltage ranges 1.5 to 6 volts and 6 volts to 15. This is according to Spark'e who is designing the power supply as we speak.
Chris
is that 60db fixed? or adjustable?
Adjustable :) with a non detented pot..
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There are going to be two preamps.. One we think will be the size of the 9100 but with balanced inputs/phantom power and last but not least 60 db of gain. This preamp will have a 5 pin mini XLR that breaks out into a full size pair of XLR cables. The output will be a single unbalancd mini xlr.
The other preamp is going to be our full size preamp that will be the size of a UA-5 it will have two operational input voltage ranges 1.5 to 6 volts and 6 volts to 15. This is according to Spark'e who is designing the power supply as we speak.
Chris
is that 60db fixed? or adjustable?
Adjustable :) with a non detented pot..
;D rock on pimp...forget that i ever posed the question...
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Adjustable :) with a non detented pot..
A few thoughts on that.. Put me in the category of hating variable pots.. And if the gain is controlled by two independent variable pots which must be balanced, double extra hate ;)
The minime goes to about 60dB on one pot and that is really sensitive and cumbersome. Especially since you have to balance both pots. Worse, since they are apparently in the audio signal path (Ewwww!) they are prone to emit noise as the pots age.
I like that all my pres - v3, aerco, bg1, psp2 - are stepped gain. The 7xx pots do not seem to be in the signal path and multiple gain ranges are available (with separate balance) so it isn't too bad. Plus the display tells you how much gain you're running with a fair bit of accuracy. I never knew how much gain I was running with the minime. I have often wished the 7xx could set it to emulate stepped gain (9 o'clock is 20, 12 o'clock is 25, 2:00 is 30, 4:00 is 35, etc).
My vote would be for something like the v3 step+trim. The bg1 has a small step of 2.75dB but that makes it hard to know how much gain you have in the dark if you're 6 steps up from min. I always have to consult the chart I have taped to the top. There are so many detents it is hard to tell if they're set the same by feel.
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Adjustable :) with a non detented pot..
A few thoughts on that.. Put me in the category of hating variable pots.. And if the gain is controlled by two independent variable pots which must be balanced, double extra hate ;)
The minime goes to about 60dB on one pot and that is really sensitive and cumbersome. Especially since you have to balance both pots. Worse, since they are apparently in the audio signal path (Ewwww!) they are prone to emit noise as the pots age.
I like that all my pres - v3, aerco, bg1, psp2 - are stepped gain. The 7xx pots do not seem to be in the signal path and multiple gain ranges are available (with separate balance) so it isn't too bad. Plus the display tells you how much gain you're running with a fair bit of accuracy. I never knew how much gain I was running with the minime. I have often wished the 7xx could set it to emulate stepped gain (9 o'clock is 20, 12 o'clock is 25, 2:00 is 30, 4:00 is 35, etc).
My vote would be for something like the v3 step+trim. The bg1 has a small step of 2.75dB but that makes it hard to know how much gain you have in the dark if you're 6 steps up from min. I always have to consult the chart I have taped to the top. There are so many detents it is hard to tell if they're set the same by feel.
We have already thought about it. We are going to be doing something that has never been done on a preamp before. We are going to use a single dual gang pot for gain but have a extra fine trim on channel 2 via a small screwdriver pot so you can actually dial in the differences between left and right microphones. So you end up with a balanced left and right. Then you just have to use one pot for overall adjustment. I dont like stepped pots because they are a compromise. You always have someone that says I wish I could turn it down 1 db.. So that's the plan.
I am never going to be able to please everyone. We realize that so, we will "possibly" offer a stepped gain control for customers that wish to have one.. Only in the transformer based preamp. In the stealth preamp it will be a single dual gang pot due to space limitations.
This company will always listen to our customers and always try to do things to please them. But in the end some decisions are made because of design issues that can not be worked around. Some are made because it we did it the price would go up...
Chris
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Well, this thread has certainly given us some nice teasers for today...
I'll begin socking away dough as soon as I get back from Bonnaroo.
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The dreaded screw driver... I used to have a Mini-Me and thats how I had to adjust the gain for line level signals... I have a DMIC-20 that I have to use a screw driver to change the toggled gain steps...
Actually I'll bet most will be using this pre-amp into another pre-amp/ AD converter, so the balance can be controlled by the second unit.
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The dreaded screw driver... I used to have a Mini-Me and thats how I had to adjust the gain for line level signals... I have a DMIC-20 that I have to use a screw driver to change the toggled gain steps...
Actually I'll bet most will be using this pre-amp into another pre-amp/ AD converter, so the balance can be controlled by the second unit.
I would be using this into a mini me. Double screwdriver action :P ;D
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The dreaded screw driver... I used to have a Mini-Me and thats how I had to adjust the gain for line level signals... I have a DMIC-20 that I have to use a screw driver to change the toggled gain steps...
Actually I'll bet most will be using this pre-amp into another pre-amp/ AD converter, so the balance can be controlled by the second unit.
Well then we might have a bunch of options. I say use the fine adjustment on the preamp then you can "calibrate your stereo mics" so they are both the same level and not have to worry about doing anything on the second unit. Like I said before we cant please everyone. But maybe we can offer different options.. That might be a way to make most of the people happy.. I am all for that but I have to make sure I can get the "parts" when a customer says I want this or that.. It all costs money to have these things sitting on a shelf until a customer wants them. So I try to use off the shelf parts that are in high demand so that our supply chain never gets screwed up and the customer is never stuck waiting for "our" parts to come in.
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The dreaded screw driver... I used to have a Mini-Me and thats how I had to adjust the gain for line level signals... I have a DMIC-20 that I have to use a screw driver to change the toggled gain steps...
Actually I'll bet most will be using this pre-amp into another pre-amp/ AD converter, so the balance can be controlled by the second unit.
Well then we might have a bunch of options. I say use the fine adjustment on the preamp then you can "calibrate your stereo mics" so they are both the same level and not have to worry about doing anything on the second unit. Like I said before we cant please everyone. But maybe we can offer different options.. That might be a way to make most of the people happy.. I am all for that but I have to make sure I can get the "parts" when a customer says I want this or that.. It all costs money to have these things sitting on a shelf until a customer wants them. So I try to use off the shelf parts that are in high demand so that our supply chain never gets screwed up and the customer is never stuck waiting for "our" parts to come in.
Chris..honestly...build your prototype the way that you think would work best. IF/When you get the demand for more...then you can worry about customization based on that customer. until then...just a stock box would be great...b/c everyone can work with what they have. no box will ever be perfect for everyone. 8)
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+t to chris for helping me customize my st9100 preamp just how i wanted it! im really pumped to see this final project. keep up the work!
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I say use the fine adjustment on the preamp then you can "calibrate your stereo mics" so they are both the same level and not have to worry about doing anything on the second unit.
Would that pot be in the signal path as an attenuator or would it alter the gain?
I think the fine adjustment for balance is a good idea. Though I don't stress about mic balance much at all (my mics are matched). Plus I switch between mics so any balance correction. If you really wanted to get jiggy with it you could have resistor modules that inserted into the pre with each one having a different correction dialed in.. but again, I'm not sure mic imbalance is a common problem.
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Regarding the stealthy preamp you are speaking of:
Would it be possible to make the preamp so that it could power both 48v and 9v mics (with a switch). I realize the impedance would be off, but would it still work? That would be fantastic for people with both types of mics. Just a thought...
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I say use the fine adjustment on the preamp then you can "calibrate your stereo mics" so they are both the same level and not have to worry about doing anything on the second unit.
Would that pot be in the signal path as an attenuator or would it alter the gain?
I think the fine adjustment for balance is a good idea. Though I don't stress about mic balance much at all (my mics are matched). Plus I switch between mics so any balance correction. If you really wanted to get jiggy with it you could have resistor modules that inserted into the pre with each one having a different correction dialed in.. but again, I'm not sure mic imbalance is a common problem.
With 60 db of gain you need a true gain pot.. This preamp will have a true gain pot + a 20db pad.
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Regarding the stealthy preamp you are speaking of:
Would it be possible to make the preamp so that it could power both 48v and 9v mics (with a switch). I realize the impedance would be off, but would it still work? That would be fantastic for people with both types of mics. Just a thought...
No if people want to use electret mics with it they will need impedance converters/phantom to 10volt adaptors.
The stealth preamp will be totally designed to drive balanced loads with a phantom powered mic..
The phantom power will be switchable on or off.. So people with powered mics that dont need phantom can use this preamp.
Chris
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Regarding the stealthy preamp you are speaking of:
Would it be possible to make the preamp so that it could power both 48v and 9v mics (with a switch). I realize the impedance would be off, but would it still work? That would be fantastic for people with both types of mics. Just a thought...
No if people want to use electret mics with it they will need impedance converters/phantom to 10volt adaptors.
The stealth preamp will be totally designed to drive balanced loads with a phantom powered mic..
The phantom power will be switchable on or off.. So people with powered mics that dont need phantom can use this preamp.
Chris
I figured as much. Thanks.
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No if people want to use electret mics with it they will need impedance converters/phantom to 10volt adaptors.
The stealth preamp will be totally designed to drive balanced loads with a phantom powered mic..
The phantom power will be switchable on or off.. So people with powered mics that dont need phantom can use this preamp.
Chris
will it include also a small ADC inside or maybe it's asking too much for a stealth device? ;D
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who needs that ?
all of the "stealth decks" have good A/Ds in them.
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Hey Chris, you should run this idea by the folks on Gearslutz location recording board and Yahoo Nature recordists. While the Gearslutz folks, many of whom are on this site will probably have similar requests, the nature recordists are also looking for a small self powered stereo pre. These folks are looking for field rugged, low noise and high gain. As well as the pro's and hobbyists, there are several film/audio school instructors who are always looking for inexpensive recording options for their classes.
Chris - This is an excellent idea. and double your audience
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June is approaching fast.. I can't wait to see pictures of the proto type!!!!
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June is approaching fast.. I can't wait to see pictures of the proto type!!!!
I think we are about 2 months away from a prototype. But one never knows... :)
Chris
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I think we are about 2 months away from a prototype. But one never knows... :)
Gotta feed the wolves. Just post a pic of a 9100 in a bigger box with some random transformers thrown in.
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I think we are about 2 months away from a prototype. But one never knows... :)
Gotta feed the wolves. Just post a pic of a 9100 in a bigger box with some random transformers thrown in.
LOL I was thinking of that... A few flux capacitors and some wire should do it. :)
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don't forget to throw on a little duct tape.
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don't forget to throw on a little duct tape.
I dont use duct tape. I use electrical tape it looks more professional :)
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hardcore idea. +T man
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hardcore idea. +T man
What the electrical tape :P
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nah the duck tape, looks more ghetto ;)
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I think we are about 2 months away from a prototype. But one never knows... :)
Gotta feed the wolves. Just post a pic of a 9100 in a bigger box with some random transformers thrown in.
LOL I was thinking of that... A few flux capacitors and some wire should do it. :)
Tease!
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just wanted to bump this to the top.
Any progress on this Chris?
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
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I'm interested in this for sure.
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
well, we all appreciate the work you guys are doing. Thanks for the update.
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I'm itching to try something new as well.
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
SparkE! forgive my ignorance...but are you and Chris able to work in parallel, or does his work require your work to be completed first?
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
SparkE! forgive my ignorance...but are you and Chris able to work in parallel, or does his work require your work to be completed first?
We're working in parallel as much as possible, but you've got to have a good power supply before you can start making the design decisions on the amplifier circuits. I'm just about there, I think.
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
SparkE! forgive my ignorance...but are you and Chris able to work in parallel, or does his work require your work to be completed first?
We're working in parallel as much as possible, but you've got to have a good power supply before you can start making the design decisions on the amplifier circuits. I'm just about there, I think.
thanx! and im not pushing..j/w for my own knowledge +t's
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It's not Chris that's holding things up. It's me. I'm working on the phantom supply and it's been harder to meet the goals I set for the design than I thought it would be. Sorry for the delay. I promise that it will be worth the wait.
SparkE! forgive my ignorance...but are you and Chris able to work in parallel, or does his work require your work to be completed first?
We're working in parallel as much as possible, but you've got to have a good power supply before you can start making the design decisions on the amplifier circuits. I'm just about there, I think.
thanx! and im not pushing..j/w for my own knowledge +t's
The power supply is the "foundation" for a good preamp with out a good power supply nothing we do design wise for the preamp section will matter. That's where a lot of designs fall short they spend alot of time on the preamp and then use an "off the shelf" dc to dc converter. What Spark'E has done is designed a power supply from scratch this power supply will be much better then alot of the battery operated preamps out there.
Chris
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Nice!
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Thanks for the update, Chris and SparkE :) I'm sure this will be a very nice pre and look forward to hearing the results.
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awesome news folks ;D
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3 weeks since the last update ;D the suspense is killing me >:D >:D.
any new words on the forefront?
thanx guys!
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3 weeks since the last update ;D the suspense is killing me >:D >:D.
any new words on the forefront?
thanx guys!
I am working on the gain control circuit... :) there is your update lol... ;)
Chris
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Feature creep is upon us. :) (We keep coming up with more and more requirements. I'm not going to be specific on what those requirements are, but I'm confident that the additional requirements will be worth the additional effort and time.)
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man...I can't wait to get one of these for review.
;-)
+T guys
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Feature creep is upon us. :) (We keep coming up with more and more requirements. I'm not going to be specific on what those requirements are, but I'm confident that the additional requirements will be worth the additional effort and time.)
man...do i know all about that! its a bitch!
keep up the work! we all appreciate it...and as you can tell from 15 pages of response...most are eagerly awaiting!
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The suspense is killing me >:D >:D.
any new words on the forefront?
thanx guys!
YEAH ME TOO
Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet!!!! :o
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
Well as time goes on and the feature set increases, our price point is also changing. Its a very hard balancing act between cost of the product and retail price. But we want to pack as many features into this thing as is possible so that you get the most bang for the buck. We also want to design a preamp that does not need any "mods" in the future to make it sound better. I think in the end everyone that owns one will be happy with there purchase.
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
Well as time goes on and the feature set increases, our price point is also changing. Its a very hard balancing act between cost of the product and retail price. But we want to pack as many features into this thing as is possible so that you get the most bang for the buck. We also want to design a preamp that does not need any "mods" in the future to make it sound better. I think in the end everyone that owns one will be happy with there purchase.
So feature creep = pricepoint creep. Understandable. Look forward to hearing what to you come up with.
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
Well as time goes on and the feature set increases, our price point is also changing. Its a very hard balancing act between cost of the product and retail price. But we want to pack as many features into this thing as is possible so that you get the most bang for the buck. We also want to design a preamp that does not need any "mods" in the future to make it sound better. I think in the end everyone that owns one will be happy with there purchase.
understood. id rather having quality than a lower pricepoint anyday.
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
Well as time goes on and the feature set increases, our price point is also changing. Its a very hard balancing act between cost of the product and retail price. But we want to pack as many features into this thing as is possible so that you get the most bang for the buck. We also want to design a preamp that does not need any "mods" in the future to make it sound better. I think in the end everyone that owns one will be happy with there purchase.
understood. id rather having quality than a lower pricepoint anyday.
So if it's going to be more expensive (quality), what will seperate it from the Aerco MP2 (which is a quality piece of kit)?
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Are we still looking at a $500 price point on this?
Well as time goes on and the feature set increases, our price point is also changing. Its a very hard balancing act between cost of the product and retail price. But we want to pack as many features into this thing as is possible so that you get the most bang for the buck. We also want to design a preamp that does not need any "mods" in the future to make it sound better. I think in the end everyone that owns one will be happy with there purchase.
understood. id rather having quality than a lower pricepoint anyday.
So if it's going to be more expensive (quality), what will seperate it from the Aerco MP2 (which is a quality piece of kit)?
We are not going to say our preamp is better then the competition, I did not build my reputation by slamming other sellers of fine audio gear ( unless I thought they were trying to rip you off ) :) But There will be features on this preamp that have NEVER been put on a preamp before. I am not going to get into details to easy for the competition to beat us to the punch. I think we have incorporated things that "should" have been put into a preamp design but never have been, because all of the other preamps are not really designed from the ground up for taping live shows sure some of them are small and some of them use battery power but none of them have some of the ideas we are going to incorporate into this one product. When you see the feature set you will understand what I am talking about, I am not bragging here but I am dam proud of some of the ideas Me and Brad have come up with. And I know you will be impressed, I am... and I am not so easy to impress. So I guess what I am saying is Function/Performance will be one thing that makes us stand out.
This is the finest thing I have ever been a part of. I am very proud of this design. I dont want to come off as some jerk that thinks we have reinvented the wheel. We have not. What we have done is for a long time wondered why some of these features were never available in a design. We have also rethought preamp and power supply design from ground up, nothing in our design or in the function of this preamp is "typical" And in the end the customer will get a preamp that is Functional, Reliable, Flexible, And Sounds Great.
We are not just builders of gear. Brad has his extensive electronics engineering background and concert taping and extensive knowledge of how the "big boys do things" from a manufacturing and design standpoint. I have my background in sound engineering and electronics, and some of the things I have learned in running Church Audio like the mass production of over 2,900 preamps and over 2,000 microphones to date with a return rate of less then 5%. Both of our talents are being fully brought to bear on this product.
But more importantly then all that is this "WE LISTEN" to you guys we read your threads and we listen to your ideas and we have read about some of your frustrations. That's how a good product is formed not just from the inside out but from the end user input. Because in the end you guys are going to be the ones running the gear in the field.
Chris
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OH MY GOD THE SUSPENSE IS NOW KILLING ME....honest
Thank you chris and brad for putting all of your talents to work and designing a product tailored to the concert recording needs. I am sure that this product will be fantastic. If everything you say is true, and I am sure that it is, this will be a great addition to my apogee minime converters. Sounds like it could end up being the next V2.
T+
Any idea on time frame till completion?
Thanks OOK
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"boing"
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I'm not even in the market for a preamp and I want one now. ;D
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I AM in the market for a pre-amp and I want one....
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There is one thing that is going to be in the preamp is an
On off switch :)
We will be releasing the feature set in the next little while.. :) once we have a working prototype.
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We will be releasing the feature set in the next little while.. :) once we have a working prototype. that we will be shipping off to NicksPicks.com for review.
fixed that for you...
;-)
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So if it's going to be more expensive (quality), what will seperate it from the Aerco MP2 (which is a quality piece of kit)?
We are not going to say our preamp is better then the competition, I did not build my reputation by slamming other sellers of fine audio gear ( unless I thought they were trying to rip you off ) :) But There will be features on this preamp that have NEVER been put on a preamp before. I am not going to get into details to easy for the competition to beat us to the punch. I think we have incorporated things that "should" have been put into a preamp design but never have been, because all of the other preamps are not really designed from the ground up for taping live shows sure some of them are small and some of them use battery power but none of them have some of the ideas we are going to incorporate into this one product. When you see the feature set you will understand what I am talking about, I am not bragging here but I am dam proud of some of the ideas Me and Brad have come up with. And I know you will be impressed, I am... and I am not so easy to impress. So I guess what I am saying is Function/Performance will be one thing that makes us stand out.
This is the finest thing I have ever been a part of. I am very proud of this design. I dont want to come off as some jerk that thinks we have reinvented the wheel. We have not. What we have done is for a long time wondered why some of these features were never available in a design. We have also rethought preamp and power supply design from ground up, nothing in our design or in the function of this preamp is "typical" And in the end the customer will get a preamp that is Functional, Reliable, Flexible, And Sounds Great.
We are not just builders of gear. Brad has his extensive electronics engineering background and concert taping and extensive knowledge of how the "big boys do things" from a manufacturing and design standpoint. I have my background in sound engineering and electronics, and some of the things I have learned in running Church Audio like the mass production of over 2,900 preamps and over 2,000 microphones to date with a return rate of less then 5%. Both of our talents are being fully brought to bear on this product.
But more importantly then all that is this "WE LISTEN" to you guys we read your threads and we listen to your ideas and we have read about some of your frustrations. That's how a good product is formed not just from the inside out but from the end user input. Because in the end you guys are going to be the ones running the gear in the field.
Chris
So basically I can summarize your entire diatribe to: we are making nothing short of God's gift to taping.
Seriously though, great things start from humble beginnings... To be honest, most sellers on TS don't get away with comments like that without taking some serious flack.
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We owe it to Chris and his good reputation to wait to see what we're shooting at before deploying the flack.
Edit to add:
To his credit, I think Chris knows he can't please everyone...
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We owe it to Chris and his good reputation to wait to see what we're shooting at before deploying the flack.
Edit to add:
To his credit, I think Chris knows he can't please everyone...
The whole post reads like a marketing flier. I don't see other sellers in here fluffing their wares...
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Read more closely and you'll see:
Chris soliciting feature suggestions
Tapers offering more opinions than can fit into any one box
Tapers asking, repeatedly for updates
Chris responding to those requests...
Lighten up.
Hell, nothing is even for sale- yet.
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Read more closely and you'll see:
Chris soliciting feature suggestions
Tapers offering more opinions than can fit into any one box
Tapers asking, repeatedly for updates
Chris responding to those requests...
Lighten up.
Hell, nothing is even for sale- yet.
I saw that and it's cool. But when I asked about the distinction from the Aerco box, I got a long fluff reply that had little to do with the question. All he had to say was wait until it comes out.
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The whole post reads like a marketing flier. I don't see other sellers in here fluffing their wares...
You don't see many of guysonic's posts, do you? :P
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The whole post reads like a marketing flier. I don't see other sellers in here fluffing their wares...
You don't see many of guysonic's posts, do you? :P
He keeps a pretty low profile, but pops up every few weeks for another round. ;D
I look forward to seeing/hearing what you guys come up with, but let's keep the fluffing to a minimum until we hear some recordings.
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Read more closely and you'll see:
Chris soliciting feature suggestions
Tapers offering more opinions than can fit into any one box
Tapers asking, repeatedly for updates
Chris responding to those requests...
Lighten up.
Hell, nothing is even for sale- yet.
I saw that and it's cool. But when I asked about the distinction from the Aerco box, I got a long fluff reply that had little to do with the question. All he had to say was wait until it comes out.
well..he did preface his post with the fact that he didn't want to release a full list b/c of privacy. He is still in design/prototyping. If the list got out, someone could beat him to features, and therefore his would not be unique any longer.
What he did say.
* We already know its transformer based
* his is a new product from the ground up (including power)
* features not available on other units
* these features are from tapers suggestions, from actual field usage since both designers are tapers, and its built specifically for field use.
what you considered fluffing or marketing flier...i considered Chris being anxious about wanting to tell us, but smart enough not too b/c of the reason he listed. He has built something new, and is proud (as he said)....i can tell he wants to spill his guts...its like a kid with a new toy (except he built that toy)...
my .02$
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Hmm, so Chris specifically did NOT get into features, specs, or anything else, and gave his reasons why the secrecy. He deliberately did NOT say "mine is better than X's". He deliberately did NOT claim any level of performance other than to say that he thought people would like the feature set they have been trying to incorporate, and that he was proud of his work?
Why the heck are you suggesting he's "fluffing" his product??? Just because he didn't answer your post about the Aerco in the way you wanted? Lighten up, Francis. You'd be hard pressed to find another manufacturer that's been as supportive of TS than Chris.
Thanks for the work Chris, can't wait to see the pre when it's done!
Mike
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Hmm, so Chris specifically did NOT get into features, specs, or anything else, and gave his reasons why the secrecy. He deliberately did NOT say "mine is better than X's". He deliberately did NOT claim any level of performance other than to say that he thought people would like the feature set they have been trying to incorporate, and that he was proud of his work?
Why the heck are you suggesting he's "fluffing" his product??? Just because he didn't answer your post about the Aerco in the way you wanted? Lighten up, Francis. You'd be hard pressed to find another manufacturer that's been as supportive of TS than Chris.
Thanks for the work Chris, can't wait to see the pre when it's done!
Mike
This isn't about the Aerco box, or about Oade's gear.
Let me quote the fluffing:
because all of the other preamps are not really designed from the ground up for taping live shows sure some of them are small and some of them use battery power but none of them have some of the ideas we are going to incorporate into this one product.
Seems like fluffing/trashing other pre-amps to me. I can think of a couple pre-amps designed for live music taping that are quite popular/well respected.
And I know you will be impressed, I am... and I am not so easy to impress.
fluff...
We are not just builders of gear. Brad has his extensive electronics engineering background and concert taping and extensive knowledge of how the "big boys do things" from a manufacturing and design standpoint. I have my background in sound engineering and electronics, and some of the things I have learned in running Church Audio like the mass production of over 2,900 preamps and over 2,000 microphones to date with a return rate of less then 5%. Both of our talents are being fully brought to bear on this product.
fluff...
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People fluff gear around here all the time: sellers, long-time tapers, newbies, people who communicate very well, TSers who can't communicate worth a lick...you name it. Why does this particular "fluffing" episode irk you so?
A good policy towards fluffing, IMO: ignore it (since it's futile to fight it) and make up one's own mind if/when one hears the gear.
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I'll fluff it like charmen baby!
can't wait for the silly thing to materialize.
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Read more closely and you'll see:
Chris soliciting feature suggestions
Tapers offering more opinions than can fit into any one box
Tapers asking, repeatedly for updates
Chris responding to those requests...
Lighten up.
Hell, nothing is even for sale- yet.
I saw that and it's cool. But when I asked about the distinction from the Aerco box, I got a long fluff reply that had little to do with the question. All he had to say was wait until it comes out.
well..he did preface his post with the fact that he didn't want to release a full list b/c of privacy. He is still in design/prototyping. If the list got out, someone could beat him to features, and therefore his would not be unique any longer.
What he did say.
* We already know its transformer based
* his is a new product from the ground up (including power)
* features not available on other units
* these features are from tapers suggestions, from actual field usage since both designers are tapers, and its built specifically for field use.
what you considered fluffing or marketing flier...i considered Chris being anxious about wanting to tell us, but smart enough not too b/c of the reason he listed. He has built something new, and is proud (as he said)....i can tell he wants to spill his guts...its like a kid with a new toy (except he built that toy)...
my .02$
I agree. Lets not forget Soundprofessionals started offering his 4.7 mod once he posted how to do it. He posted how to do it for the DIYer's out there. Not for SP to make $$$ of it. I totally see why he isn't posting details on the new pre.
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People fluff gear around here all the time: sellers, long-time tapers, newbies, people who communicate very well, TSers who can't communicate worth a lick...you name it. Why does this particular "fluffing" episode irk you so?
A good policy towards fluffing, IMO: ignore it (since it's futile to fight it) and make up one's own mind if/when one hears the gear.
I don't mind average TSers fluffing at all. It's just a little different to me when it's an actual company/enterprise doing the fluffing. I'll head your advice in the future. +T
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Fluffing in his own thread is just fine.. Anything he could say about the preamp, even details, would be fluffing because it is still vapor ware.
It is a little funny that early on Chris scoffed at the AERCO's price as way too high but his product seems to be creeping toward a similar price (perhaps with less customization of each unit given how custom each AERCO is).
I think the product specification/input phase was interesting to watch - bouncing between a compact form factor like the AERCO/psp2 vs. larger designs. It seemed there are those who want a killer small transformer pre with internal power and external as an option (but don't want to pay/wait for an AERCO).. And those who will accept a larger form factor like a v2 with external power and more features. I'm not sure where this design ended up but it sounds like it went for larger and features.
there was also some talk earlier about offering both, once the design was complete. One small form for the stealth people (with less options/features) and a larger form factor for the full pre. I am not sure how that ended up? But yes..the whole process is interesting to watch unfold, and i can't wait to see what comes out of it.
as far as the price...I honestly thought it would be VERY hard to keep it at the pp he was shooting for. But I admire both of them for trying to keep it at that price point, and still trying to keep it as low as possible.
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Fluffing in his own thread is just fine.. Anything he could say about the preamp, even details, would be fluffing because it is still vapor ware.
It is a little funny that early on Chris scoffed at the AERCO's price as way too high but his product seems to be creeping toward a similar price (perhaps with less customization of each unit given how custom each AERCO is).
I think the product specification/input phase was interesting to watch - bouncing between a compact form factor like the AERCO/psp2 vs. larger designs. It seemed there are those who want a killer small transformer pre with internal power and external as an option (but don't want to pay/wait for an AERCO).. And those who will accept a larger form factor like a v2 with external power and more features. I'm not sure where this design ended up but it sounds like it went for larger and features.
When our preamp comes out, It will be something that will be worth every penny we ask for it and more.. Just like my products are now.. I made some mistakes early on, I should never have commented on. But it's water under the bridge we will have a scaled down version that "everyone can afford" and we will have a full blow version that most people can afford. Its hard to please everyone. But I dont want to build the same old preamp that has already been done. And we are not going to just throw something out before its 100% ready.. I dont want to use my paying customers as "beta" testers. So to that end things are taking longer but that's the nature of things when you have a guy like Brad working on things he is not happy with anything less then the best performance. That does not mean that it will cost $$$. We are constantly looking at cost vs performance and making sure the balance is as good as we can make it.
Chris
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Fluffing in his own thread is just fine.. Anything he could say about the preamp, even details, would be fluffing because it is still vapor ware.
It is a little funny that early on Chris scoffed at the AERCO's price as way too high but his product seems to be creeping toward a similar price (perhaps with less customization of each unit given how custom each AERCO is).
I think the product specification/input phase was interesting to watch - bouncing between a compact form factor like the AERCO/psp2 vs. larger designs. It seemed there are those who want a killer small transformer pre with internal power and external as an option (but don't want to pay/wait for an AERCO).. And those who will accept a larger form factor like a v2 with external power and more features. I'm not sure where this design ended up but it sounds like it went for larger and features.
there was also some talk earlier about offering both, once the design was complete. One small form for the stealth people (with less options/features) and a larger form factor for the full pre. I am not sure how that ended up? But yes..the whole process is interesting to watch unfold, and i can't wait to see what comes out of it.
as far as the price...I honestly thought it would be VERY hard to keep it at the pp he was shooting for. But I admire both of them for trying to keep it at that price point, and still trying to keep it as low as possible.
Its always been our intention to make two different versions a "stealth" version for people that need small. And a gear bag version for the guys that do not stealth. The stealth version will have less bells and whistles but the same performance at a lower price point.
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T+
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Chris you rock! I guess this means I will have to buy both versions.....T+
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Chris you rock! I guess this means I will have to buy both versions.....T+
lol... well only if you want too.. I have been known for making good gear at a good price.. that's not ever going to change, Brad does not want this to be over priced ether do I. So the price points will be fair. I guess I just wanted to keep everyone up to date and in the process I might have upset a few people with a estimation of a price increase. Even with he big preamp we are building Brad has suggested that we offer it with out a transformer so we can reduce the cost over $150. And have it built in such a way that if the customer did want the transformer option they could send it to us and we could install it at a later date. This can reduce the cost of the preamp by $150.
We dont want to get into reducing the features for one person or another, this will not be a simple project box where we can simply omit a hole or two. It will need to be machined and in order to keep costs down we will be getting more then one machined at a time, that means things like the basic functionality must remain the same from one preamp to another.
We are talking about 70+db of gain so this product can be used from everything to recording a kick drum -20 db pad to recording a humming bird ( ultra low noise floor ) One of the other things we can let you know about is we are going to include a unbalanced input 3.5 mm with plug in power that can be used instead of the xlr connectors so that you can use a pair of AT mics or a pair of CA mics with your preamp and NOT have to use the stupid adaptors that stick out 2 inches from your preamps inputs. But so far this is just talk because we have to design a separate front end for that.
Chris
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thats good thinking (the 3.5mm w/pip) as well as the balanced inputs.
I've always wished my preamps offered that.
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Well, I think we're all pretty interested in this. I'm ready to hear it to formulate my own opinions ;)
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thats good thinking (the 3.5mm w/pip) as well as the balanced inputs.
I've always wished my preamps offered that.
This will also be great in terms of upgrading your rig. Very often new tapers start off with small mics like this due to cost. With a pre amp like this, they can still use those mics as well as full size mics when they are ready to upgrade. i'm liking what i'm hearing. keep up the good work!
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well, I for one love that youre working with us tapers for the feature set Chris and I wish you guys the best of luck
and about fluffing, who cares? hes happy about something HE BUILT, whats wrong with that?
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i think i figured it out. this obviously has a built in vaporizer. sorry to steal your thunder, chris, but you know this is what we all have been waiting for...
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i think i figured it out. this obviously has a built in vaporizer. sorry to steal your thunder, chris, but you know this is what we all have been waiting for...
With all the talk about the heat on an AD-1000, why has no one developed that mod for one of those?
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i think i figured it out. this obviously has a built in vaporizer. sorry to steal your thunder, chris, but you know this is what we all have been waiting for...
With all the talk about the heat on an AD-1000, why has no one developed that mod for one of those?
The clock in them is very prone to die. Maybe because of the heat? A few years ago Doug Oade offered to try moding an AD-1000 I had. The problem was that the power supply in that unit was bad and Apogee would not work on it and they would not send the schematics to anybody. Now, I hear they are discontinuing the Mini-Me too.
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"Drool" looking for an update. Hows the project going.
Did you figure out a name yet? How about the holy pre, get it? church audio....holy pre....
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"Drool" looking for an update. Hows the project going.
Did you figure out a name yet? How about the holy pre, get it? church audio....holy pre....
my vote is for the "CWA +t "
one month bumper... ;D updates? :drool:
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"Drool" looking for an update. Hows the project going.
Did you figure out a name yet? How about the holy pre, get it? church audio....holy pre....
my vote is for the "CWA +t "
one month bumper... ;D updates? :drool:
Brad and I are still actively working on this.. There will be an update in the next few weeks..
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should be the "Church G.R.A.I.L"
but need to think of the acronym to have it make sense.
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should be the "Church G.R.A.I.L"
Good Rockin' All Inclusive (but can't think of anything that will work with the "L")
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just bumping it up hoping for an update.
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Still working on it.
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any updates?
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sorry if this was replied somewhere else, but are there any updates on this?
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Currently waiting on test results for a logarithmic gain control circuit.
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Currently waiting on test results for a logarithmic gain control circuit.
Yes we are :)
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Can't you just make it fixed gain and release it now? :P
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logarithmic gain control circuit.
Wow, I feel smarter just for having read that. I just wish I knew what it meant...<grin>
Keep up the great work guys!!
Mike
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*googles "logarithmic gain control circuit"*
;D
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It goes next to the flux capacitor and underneath the ball bearings. It's all bearings now.
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thanks for update :)
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Any updates? Its been a while....
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Any updates? Its been a while....
I am testing the gain control circuit this week. I was talking to Sparke he has put in over 60+ hours into this so it is going to happen just not overnight the main problem is Brad and I are very busy but some work will be getting done this week.
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thanks for update :)
;)
Keep it up!
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two month bump...any news on the forefront? >:D
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Intense look from your son Julian in your avatar 8)
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Intense look from your son Julian in your avatar 8)
yupyup...i wish i could remember what he was looking at...
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Intense look from your son Julian in your avatar 8)
yupyup...i wish i could remember what he was looking at...
You were just squeezing him too tight.
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The CA-9100 upgrade special got me to thinking about this thread. Any updates from Mr. Church? I'm happy with my 9000 vs. a 9100 for right now, but I wouldn't mind upgrading sometime in the near future and would stick with Church Audio if this preamp was an option.
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We are still working on it. It will come out one of these days :)
Chris
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out of the closet, he means.
;-)
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We are still working on it. It will come out one of these days :)
any progress on this pre-amp in the past 6 months?
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We are still working on it. It will come out one of these days :)
any progress on this pre-amp in the past 6 months?
We are still working on it. When its released it will be part of a bigger suite of products. There is no E.T.A for delivery.
Chris
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will it transform from a preamp into a fire breathing, rocket launching robot?
man, I miss that toy.
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any progress on this pre-amp in the past 6 months?
We are still working on it. When its released it will be part of a bigger suite of products. There is no E.T.A for delivery.
Chris
Can you give us a preview of what this suite will contain? Are all of them aimed at the live concert taper? Seeing how Mr. FiveFish is getting roasted for putting his preamp on the back-burner I can understand you wanting to keep quiet until your products are ready, but a general list of what you're working on would be nice.
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Sure, a taser option would be cool. But is it really worth holding things up for that? ;)
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will it transform from a preamp into a fire breathing, rocket launching robot?
man, I miss that toy.
yeah, Chris is going to have his new pre-amp released in conjunction with the release of the new Transformers II movie where it will be featured. "Pre-amp" transforms into a wrist and back rocket launching robot with flamethrowing breath and is guaranteed to add "warmth" to your "recordings" this summer. ;D
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awesome!
just what i've lusted after.
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Will Megan Fox be promoting the new pre-amp? >:D
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These new products will be released, its not vaporware.
Chris
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Will Megan Fox be promoting the new pre-amp? >:D
:drool: :drool: Mmmmm ..... Megan Fox and a nice pre-amp. :drool: :drool:
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Megan says "I love my new Church Audio preamp"
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Megan says "I love my new Church Audio preamp"
Did you sell her that blouse too?
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probably.
unfortunately its a little too colored for my tastes. I lean towards a more transparent blouse myself.
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will it transform from a preamp into a fire breathing, rocket launching robot?
man, I miss that toy.
yeah, Chris is going to have his new pre-amp released in conjunction with the release of the new Transformers II movie where it will be featured. "Pre-amp" transforms into a wrist and back rocket launching robot with flamethrowing breath and is guaranteed to add "warmth" to your "recordings" this summer. ;D
Subtle, like warm pee down your legs on a really cold day... ;D
Looking forward to the new products...
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I've been thinking of emailing Chris and asking if his 9100 could be modded to work with the Nevaton MCE 400's. I recently picked up a pair and am running them with the PS-2, but the PS-2/Nevaton combo is a bit bulky especially since I have to run an external battery pack for the PS-2 since it seems to drain a 9V dry in about 90 minutes (much too quickly for me and the scenes I tape in). So, I'm reading this post with much more interest now that I've found it as this new pre (for stealth guys) could be exactly what I'm looking for. I just hope it comes out sooner than later!
The waiting game begins....I'd have to wait 9 months for an Aerco MP-2 if I went that route, so what's another 9 months to see if this one becomes available?
Fingers crossed...
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I've been thinking of emailing Chris and asking if his 9100 could be modded to work with the Nevaton MCE 400's. I recently picked up a pair and am running them with the PS-2, but the PS-2/Nevaton combo is a bit bulky especially since I have to run an external battery pack for the PS-2 since it seems to drain a 9V dry in about 90 minutes (much too quickly for me and the scenes I tape in). So, I'm reading this post with much more interest now that I've found it as this new pre (for stealth guys) could be exactly what I'm looking for. I just hope it comes out sooner than later!
The waiting game begins....I'd have to wait 9 months for an Aerco MP-2 if I went that route, so what's another 9 months to see if this one becomes available?
Fingers crossed...
I would think they can be modified if they are an electret capsule and I assume they are they most likely operate from 4-10 volts.. if so that should not be a problem for a 9100 I do believe the wires are "hard wired" into the xlr phantom adaptors I could put a connector between them so that the mics could still be used with the phantom adaptors when needed. Again I would need to see the mics to know for sure.
Chris
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I've been thinking of emailing Chris and asking if his 9100 could be modded to work with the Nevaton MCE 400's. I recently picked up a pair and am running them with the PS-2, but the PS-2/Nevaton combo is a bit bulky especially since I have to run an external battery pack for the PS-2 since it seems to drain a 9V dry in about 90 minutes (much too quickly for me and the scenes I tape in). So, I'm reading this post with much more interest now that I've found it as this new pre (for stealth guys) could be exactly what I'm looking for. I just hope it comes out sooner than later!
The waiting game begins....I'd have to wait 9 months for an Aerco MP-2 if I went that route, so what's another 9 months to see if this one becomes available?
Fingers crossed...
I would think they can be modified if they are an electret capsule and I assume they are they most likely operate from 4-10 volts.. if so that should not be a problem for a 9100 I do believe the wires are "hard wired" into the xlr phantom adaptors I could put a connector between them so that the mics could still be used with the phantom adaptors when needed. Again I would need to see the mics to know for sure.
Chris
OK. It sounds like I would need to send the mics to you. So, I'll send you a PM with details and stuff.
I'll still be following the preamp discussions, but I might have to look into Chris's idea here.