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Author Topic: Best affordable true presssure omnis?  (Read 13699 times)

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Offline Busman Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2008, 07:50:28 PM »
You could always try my mics they come with omni,card,hyper and subcard and sound great in my studio here. I am fairly close to you too.
Only $500 for the pair with all the accessories. I feel they beat a good number of the mics that have been mentioned.

sorry to advertise but they really are great mics.
Busman mics of all kinds>some type of busman modified recorder.

"Just Mod It"

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2008, 08:13:17 PM »
Yeah I have heard nothing but good things about the Busman mics. For the price its a pretty good deal.

Chris
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2008, 09:14:24 PM »
Teddy, the only way that a microphone can be "more omni" than a Schoeps MK 2H is for it to be smaller, and the original poster said he specifically did not want that for reasons of noise, which makes sense.

I have very great regard for Tony Faulkner, too--but no one should take such endorsements seriously no matter who they're from, except Joss Whedon. He would never lie. But then again he doesn't record stuff (as far as I'm aware), either.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 09:24:37 PM »
hi david - always glad to see your comments here, though i dont see you recommending anything... :-)  what do you think is a good affordable omni?

hey busman - can you provide a freq response graph for your capsules for the bsc1?
 
thanks again, guys.  great forum.

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 09:36:50 PM »
Teddy, the only way that a microphone can be "more omni" than a Schoeps MK 2H is for it to be smaller, and the original poster said he specifically did not want that for reasons of noise, which makes sense.

I have very great regard for Tony Faulkner, too--but no one should take such endorsements seriously no matter who they're from, except Joss Whedon. He would never lie. But then again he doesn't record stuff (as far as I'm aware), either.

--best regards

You seem to be a bit touchy about Schoeps, David.  :) That is ok though, we all have a tendency to align with one microphone company or other(I am fiercely loyal to Gefell, for example. Not so loyal that I try to correct every post that is counter to what I say or think ;D ;), but loyal.) Respectfully, I trust Tony's ears, talent, and experience over mine(and damn near anyone else's out there recording) any day of the week. I dont take anyone's endorsements seriously(mostly, anyway) unless they have the experience and wisdom to back up what they say(Mr. Faulkner does).  At any rate...the jib of the post is that the Rode is a very good omni , the point of it being more or less an omni than a schoeps was secondary as schoeps is not what one would typically call "affordable" .  (For my money id take my c617 bodies with gefell mk221 caps over any schoeps, neumann, dpa , sonodore, or whatever.. They are the king o the heap.. but that is neither here nor there) :P
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 09:42:18 PM by Teddy »

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 09:42:59 PM »
hi david - always glad to see your comments here, though i dont see you recommending anything... :-)  what do you think is a good affordable omni?

hey busman - can you provide a freq response graph for your capsules for the bsc1?
 
thanks again, guys.  great forum.

James, did you see the Rode data .pdf?

Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 10:23:39 PM »
Teddy, this is amusing: I come back here and find two messages, one of which points out that I almost never recommend any specific microphone (which is true for a slew of reasons) and asking me what I'd recommend--while the other one, from you, does a grinning/ducking/running thing for my having pointed out that a well-respected engineer said something that's objectively incorrect.

I would have objected if someone had said something untrue about a microphone of any other brand, provided that I was aware of the facts. Anyone who's read my posts on Klaus Heyne's forum or the Neumann Pinboard knows that I don't carry a torch for any one manufacturer in my on-line postings. I truly do not believe that I know which type of microphone is best for anyone else to use.

On the other hand we can talk about some of the objective qualities that make one or another omni (pressure) transducer better than another for certain applications, and I have done so numerous times, with pictures and graphs and everything.

Anyway to answer your point let's put the AKG C 451 (the ones from ca. 1972) into the same hopper with the Schoeps since they were exactly the same outer diameter. And we might as well include Neumann KM 83s, etc. even though they're 1 - 2 mm larger depending on when they were made. However, the size of the capsule (the internal part) and the size of the housing (the outer sleeve) both enter into things, and Schoeps capsules are typically about 2/3 the diameter of their housings--so the MK 2H is in fact a bit closer to being truly omnidirectional at high frequencies than many other microphones which have identical outside dimensions.

Not by much--but the point is that the opposite, as claimed, is not true. And the point is, let's take what people say seriously--don't just venerate them because they're Great Famous Award Winning Men who surely must have been thinking something profound, when what they actually said was provably mistaken, as in this case.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 10:39:33 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 10:26:59 PM »
Teddy, then let me put the AKG C 451 (the ones from ca. 1972) into the same hopper since they were exactly the same diameter as the Schoeps. And we might as well include Neumann KM 83s, etc. even though they're 1 - 2 mm larger in diameter depending on when they were made.

Actually the size of the capsule and the size of the housing both enter into things, and Schoeps capsules are distinctly smaller than their housings--so the MK 2H is in fact a bit closer to being truly omnidirectional at high frequencies than some other microphones which have identical outside dimensions. (But not by a whole lot.)

The point is, let's take what people say seriously--don't just let them off the hook because they're Great Famous Men who surely must have been thinking something profound, when what they actually said was provably mistaken.

--best regards

Well, let me ask you this. What makes one mic vs the other more omnidirectional? I need to read more I reckon.


Offline DSatz

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2008, 10:54:13 PM »
OK, "omnidirectional" is an absolute adjective, like "in order to form a more perfect union" in the preamp to the Constitution, so you have to give the writer a tiny bit of slack.

The issue is that the wavelengths of sound at the highest audible frequencies are very short. Long waves can flow around solid objects, but shorter waves tend to be reflected or bent (diffracted) depending on the shapes and dimensions involved. Generally if a solid object is half the wavelength of sound at a given frequency, its presence in the sound field will disturb the sound at that frequency (and higher up).

So if you do the arithmetic, if sound travels at 1100 feet per second, then 1 inch is one wavelength for around 13,200 Hz, so it's a half-wavelength for around half of that, or about 6600 Hz. And if you look at the polar diagrams for microphones with a diameter in this class, you'll see that the pattern starts to become narrower right around that range of frequencies. Even though it is still a pressure transducer, the pattern is no longer omnidirectional at the highest frequencies.

That's the appeal of smaller (e.g. 1/2" or 1/4") diameter omni capsules: they retain their omnidirectional pattern to correspondingly higher frequencies. That's important in certain acoustical measurement applications. Whether it matters so much for audio recording is another question entirely--generations of engineers have used microphones which were 1" across or even larger, despite the fact that their polar pattern at the highest frequencies was far from ideal. This is because the sound arriving on axis is mostly direct sound, while the reflected sound in a hall mostly arrives off-axis, and you generally want some high-frequency absorption to take place for indirectly arriving sound, so that it doesn't smear the stereo image.

But it all depends on the room acoustics, the miking distances, the type of music, and most of all, what you want out of a recording, really.

Generally I find most useful a pressure microphone which is some compromise between a free-field and a diffuse-field type. I have a pair of free-field capsules (Schoeps MK 2) and have used them exactly three times that I can recall in 30 years of owning them. I also own a pair of diffuse-field microphones (Neumann KM 83) which I used to use a lot back in the mid-1970s, but those recordings sounded pinched and metallic. Later on I learned how to equalize them to make them sound a whole lot more natural--I've had a good time reclaiming those old recordings lately.

I don't record with spaced omnis all that terribly often any more, but when I do, I usually use a capsule type which was specifically designed for placement near the distance at which the direct sound and reverberant sound in a hall approximately match or balance one another. They're from Schoeps (MK 2S), so sue me.

But I'm not endorsing them above other compromises of similar type and quality, which absolutely do exist in the world--frankly the easiest type of condenser microphone to make well is a pressure transducer. Not many people make a good supercardioid or figure-8, but there are plenty of pretty good and even really good omni condensers, and even some dynamic omnis that are worth listening to.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 11:18:28 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline John Willett

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2008, 06:48:18 AM »
DSatz is speaking sense.

Regarding Tony Faulkner - if you really want, I'll ring him up and ask, I have known him for 20 odd years and we meet up regularly.

However, his words were probably rewritten by some marketing guy.

Value for money the Røde are pretty good and what I normally suggest if someone wants an inexpensive pair of mics.

But they are in no way comparable to the others mentioned.

I often record with omnis (mainly grand piano) and mine are:-
  • Sennheiser MKH 20
  • Neumann KM-D with both 183 and 131 heads (farfield and nearfield)
  • Sennheiser MKH 8020 (due very soon)
to the good boys I would add:
  • Schoeps
  • DPA
Earthworks can sound nice, but the small capsule size makes them a bit noisy in comparison.

But none of these are what I would call "affordable" as they are all top class pressure omnis.

(Well - affordable to me as I only want the best mics - and as they last 20+ years and tend to appreciate in price ancually would out cheaper than an "affordable" mic. in the long run.)  ;)

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2008, 11:02:57 AM »
teddy - yes, i found the graphs, thanks - there is a significant bump in the high end for the omni cap, which indicates that it is normalized for diffuse field work, so may not be exactly what i am after. 

satz - as always, thanks for the good solid info.  take care.

john willett - i think it would be a great idea if you could get a straight answer from faulkner about his comments.  thanks.

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2008, 11:29:18 AM »
DSatz is speaking sense.

Regarding Tony Faulkner - if you really want, I'll ring him up and ask, I have known him for 20 odd years and we meet up regularly.

However, his words were probably rewritten by some marketing guy.

Value for money the Røde are pretty good and what I normally suggest if someone wants an inexpensive pair of mics.

But they are in no way comparable to the others mentioned.

I often record with omnis (mainly grand piano) and mine are:-
  • Sennheiser MKH 20
  • Neumann KM-D with both 183 and 131 heads (farfield and nearfield)
  • Sennheiser MKH 8020 (due very soon)
to the good boys I would add:
  • Schoeps
  • DPA
Earthworks can sound nice, but the small capsule size makes them a bit noisy in comparison.

But none of these are what I would call "affordable" as they are all top class pressure omnis.

(Well - affordable to me as I only want the best mics - and as they last 20+ years and tend to appreciate in price ancually would out cheaper than an "affordable" mic. in the long run.) 



Nevermind...I was going to type a response, but it was not appropriate.

( a pet peeve of mine is to see *absolute* statements, possibly steering one person or other away from equipment that may(or may not) have a profound impact. There are no absolutes.)

anyway, good luck, JNorman. 

/hijack

« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 12:03:02 PM by Teddy »

jnorman34

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:59 PM »
thanks tedly - btw, has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like johnny cash?

RebelRebel

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2008, 12:30:34 PM »
thanks tedly - btw, has anyone ever told you that you look a lot like johnny cash?

Youre the first.  ;)  (Though everyone who has ever met me says that I sound just like him(Ive got an extremely "Basso"
 voice)


Offline John Willett

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Re: Best affordable true presssure omnis?
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2008, 05:20:06 PM »

( a pet peeve of mine is to see *absolute* statements, possibly steering one person or other away from equipment that may(or may not) have a profound impact. There are no absolutes.)


I'm a bit mystified here - You quote me and say you don't like *absolute* statements - but there was not an *absolute* statement in anything I wrote  ???

And I wasn't steering anyone away from anything - did you actually read what I wrote?  ???

 

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