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Author Topic: Greetings... my new mic preamp.  (Read 93212 times)

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Offline sanaka

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #300 on: August 11, 2008, 05:18:31 PM »
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ha! i order from mcmaster all teh time, and have never once though of using them as an electronics supplier!

Yup. They even have Greyhill rotary switches! Here's a fun power connnector I just from them. a 50 Amp plug. Like 5" long, like $83.

Peace,
Sanaka



Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #301 on: August 11, 2008, 05:24:37 PM »
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I assume so because you've emphasized that you usually go through several board revisions before releasing a project officially, but I didn't see where you mentioned it specifically regarding this problem.

Well, I thought more about it and after getting some sleep my mind is clearer.

The current PCBs can still be used without any problem for "stock version" preamps... (no input transformer installed) without any modifications.

The new PCB revision 1.2 will be more suitable for preamps with the input transformer option installed.



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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #302 on: August 11, 2008, 06:50:43 PM »
I second Sanaka's feelings on the polarity switch. Never used one, would be better if it were a -20 pad for line in from a hot SBD patch.

Or a high pass filter (80 Hz cutoff)? :)
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #303 on: August 11, 2008, 07:12:22 PM »
I second Sanaka's feelings on the polarity switch. Never used one, would be better if it were a -20 pad for line in from a hot SBD patch.

Or a high pass filter (80 Hz cutoff)? :)

or that too. how useful is a polarity switch in the field?

Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #304 on: August 11, 2008, 07:53:42 PM »
how useful is a polarity switch in the field?

For tapers taping a concert? Probably not useful.

For the home studio user close miking instruments/drums/etc... useful.

I hope tapers won't be the sole users of this preamp.

Trying to cast a bigger net, so prices can be lowered. Big market = lower price, small market = higher price

If tapers really want filters... hmmmm... Here's the thing... my design is not a dead end. I've got plenty of real estate space on the switchboard. And the switchboard can even be made bigger by 3" deep. Plenty of room to accomodate future features.  Heck, I can design a new switchboard with a totally different set of features, more stuff and use it with the existing motherboard pre... the future looks bright. 

Don't forget... we have a modular design here... the motherboard containing the actual preamp + PSU and a daughterboard containing the switches, PP softstart and the PP PSU. ;)
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Offline anechoic

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #305 on: August 11, 2008, 08:02:57 PM »
I would rather have a HP switch ~80-100 Hz
than a polarity switch
but I'd be doing mostly field recording with it
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Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #306 on: August 11, 2008, 08:17:55 PM »
Man, where were all you guys when I was asking around for suggestions? :)

The people who don't want/need HP filters presented good arguments and convinced me... i.e. don't throw away anything, if filtering needs to be done, we do it in post... you'd have more control over cutoff frequency, Q factor, amount of attenuation, dB/octave, etc... 

The techie in me sees that without filtering, it's less opamps required, which means less power consumption, which means longer battery life. 

...
Alright, for the pro-filtering crowd, present your arguments, if I'm convinced, I may make a separate switchboard version with HP filtering.


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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #307 on: August 11, 2008, 09:57:52 PM »
Man, where were all you guys when I was asking around for suggestions? :)

The people who don't want/need HP filters presented good arguments and convinced me... ... if I'm convinced, I may make a separate switchboard version with HP filtering.


I was right here :)

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105112.msg1413766.html#msg1413766

BTW: The reason I like the high-pass on the preamp is that it's not always convenient to access the same on the mics (blimps, on stands, out of reach etc) or the mic/s may not have that feature.

I do a fair amount of studio work BTW (usually close miced solo instruments) and as a consequence, never need phase inversion. But I understand that YMMV and the feature broadens the appeal :)

The features I have actually used on my MixPre for field-recording are ...

1. P48.
2. HP Filter.
3. Mono --> Stereo mix (ability to send one input channel to both or either outputs the - L,C,R switch). Great for when I mess up the stereo connections (which is often  ;D ), possibly as I know I can fix it on the pre I have become lazy.

While I like the limiter in it, it rarely has to kick in, so is not necessary.

digifish
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 10:11:24 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline anechoic

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #308 on: August 11, 2008, 10:28:11 PM »
a hp filter is pr0lly of more use for location recording than music recording
it helps to prevent low freq wind noise from clipping the preamp

tip: aside from live and studio music recording there is a whole 'nother market of film/video, sound artists and nature recordists/bio-acousticians who are waiting for a serious, pro-quality, affordable, low noise/high gain preamp
 :)



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Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #309 on: August 11, 2008, 10:41:48 PM »
it helps to prevent low freq wind noise from clipping the preamp

Hmmm.... that's a good argument.... the low freq rumble may clip the pre/AD/etc...


there is a whole 'nother market of film/video, sound artists and nature recordists/bio-acousticians who are waiting for a serious, pro-quality, affordable, low noise/high gain preamp

Thanks for the tip. What kind of mics do they typically use? Dynamics or Condensers? I'm assuming leaning more towards condensers?
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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #310 on: August 11, 2008, 11:00:03 PM »
it helps to prevent low freq wind noise from clipping the preamp

Hmmm.... that's a good argument.... the low freq rumble may clip the pre/AD/etc...


there is a whole 'nother market of film/video, sound artists and nature recordists/bio-acousticians who are waiting for a serious, pro-quality, affordable, low noise/high gain preamp

Thanks for the tip. What kind of mics do they typically use? Dynamics or Condensers? I'm assuming leaning more towards condensers?

Nearly all condensers.

digifish
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #311 on: August 12, 2008, 12:31:10 AM »
Man, where were all you guys when I was asking around for suggestions? :)


Ditto, I was right here as well and put my two cents in on that a couple times. :)

Truthfully, I've been a bit bummed since I double-checked a little while back for your feature set and found that the HPF wasn't included -- went from pretty excited about this preamp to just a sideline observer.  I know from a design standpoint you've got to make choices and there are tradeoffs, but I'm not sure I personally can get used to having a preamp without a HPF.

Figured I'd just let it lie, but if you want arguments:

I know nothing about home studio users, but I'd imagine most do a significant amount of post-processing, editing, mixing, etc.  The same argument about doing it in post as is applied to the HPF need seems to work here -- if studio users need to reverse phase on a channel, it can be done easy enough in post.

As to HPF, everyone says do it in post or else risk losing the low end without recourse.  I don't get that, esp when many people on ts.com will say with 24bit recorders you can record with alot of headroom, say record at -12dbFS, and then normalize in post.  If you do this, you will raise the noise floor by 12db when you normalize.  Probably not a big deal given the dynamic range of a 24bit recorder, but it's the same thing that would happen if you want to reverse the HPF you applied in the field.

Here's the scenario as I see it:  Apply HPF in the field when you think you need it, say 80 Hz/6db slope.  So you will be filtering at -3db attenuation at 80Hz (the filter knee), sloping to -9db attenuation at 40Hz, and -15db at 20Hz.  You get home and decide you were wrong -- the low end is not gone and lost as everyone always says, it is just attenuated.  So you design a reverse filter to raise the 20Hz range by 15db, rising to 9db gain for 40Hz, and 3db gain for 80Hz.  You've just reversed your mistaken application of the HPF, with the penalty that the noise will be raised by 15db at 20Hz, 9db at 40Hz, and 3db at 80Hz.  Really probably not much worse than normalizing a 24bit recording that was purposely recorded at -12dbFS and then normalized to 0dbFS.

Flip side is that if you really needed the HPF.  In this case, if you used it in the field, you're golden and you've maximized your signal to noise ratio (say for example recording perfectly so you are just short of 0dbFS).  If instead you record without a filter and decide to apply the HPF in post, you will apply the HPF with software at home and will then attenuate those low frequencies.  Since low frequencies hold a lot of energy, once you apply the HPF in post, you will reduce the overall volume of your recording, say now post-filter it is at -3dbFS.  Ok, then it's time to normalize and you raise the gain by 3db -- and in the process raise the noise floor of your recording by 3db compared to what you could have done in the field had you applied the HPF then.

Bottom line, whether you do HPF in the field or do HPF in post, if you prefer a certain amount of low frequency content to your recording there will be a risk either way.  If you do HPFiltering in the field and need it, your recording will have a better signal-to-noise ratio across the spectrum compared to a recording made without HPF, with the filter applied in post and then the recording normalized to 0dbFS.  Or you apply HPF in the field, find you don't need it and need to reverse that filtering by adding gain to the low frequencies in post -- and again raising the noise floor.  Since I have a good idea when I need HPF and when I don't, I'd rather apply it in the field and try to get the best recording I can.  If I'm wrong, I'll fix the mistake in post and take the hit on a higher noise floor, but I know I'll be right much more often than I'm wrong.

Getting back to the design of the preamp, I think that is pretty much always the case -- provide full functionality, or decide to have limitations in your hardware that will need to be addressed with post processing.  HPF can be skipped on the pre, requiring users to fix that in post, or phase reversal can be skipped, requiring those users to fix it in post.  For that matter, you could easily skip the 10db trim pots and just have 10db (or 6db) stepped gain.  Users who want to fine tune gain can do it in post with software rather than applying it in the field. 

Really none of these choices should be a deal breaker -- there have been plenty of fine tapes made by the no-frills m148 (with just a straight 20db gain and no other features), even going into a Benchmark 2496 which also has somewhat limited options for gain -- but different potential users will have different perceived needs as to what is absolutely vital.


Ramble, ramble......anyway, good to know HPF might come along in a future version. :)
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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #312 on: August 12, 2008, 01:58:50 AM »
FWIW and since you solicited for opinions, I'd also use HPF and wouldn't use polarity switches in the field.  I know that you are trying to make this a universally applicable product, but after all it does seem as if you've targeted this market with the product, maybe even with the naming of the preamp.  I'm not trying to imply there's any obligation of course to suit the needs of any particular market, but since you're soliciting opinions here, it's already been probably concluded correctly that more field/location recordists would want HPF than polarity switching.

Another thing as a FWIW, is that this feature I think could help differentiate your product, if it needs differentiating.  Most smaller preamps in the 'affordable' end of the price range that I know of don't have any filtering.  Many of the higher end products do.  Course, that could also be said of the polarity switching feature too, so maybe that point is a wash.

However, having said this, in the end, ensuring you have a small pre-amp that provides a great sound/low noise combination at an affordable cost will probably be the biggest differentiator.  My opinion.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 02:03:19 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline fivefishdiy

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #313 on: August 12, 2008, 02:22:46 AM »
Thanks tonedeaf, Todd, and others.  Your arguments and explanations have shone the light on me :)

Here's where I'm at.... Since I only ordered 10 prototype board sets of the Revision 1 PCB, and now I'm in the process of doing a Revision 1.2 (to fix the PP problem and other little irritations),... I think I'm going to HOLD OFF sending out Rev1.2 to the factory.

And instead redesign the Motherboard and Switchboard to include HP Filtering. ;D

Nothing to feel bad about. These 10 boards are not a total loss for me, they can still be used without the input transformer option for other users (tapers or studio recordists). ... and hopefully I can recover my cost for these 10 boards.

So here's what I'm thinking... The new set of (6) switches will be:
VU Meter ON/OFF
Phantom CH1
High Pass Filtering (both channels)
-20dB Pad (both channels)
Phantom CH2
Power ON/OFF

So that low level signals wouldn't travel up and down between the motherboard and switchboard PCB, I'm going to use mini-sealed Low-Signal Relays on the motherboard. Only the control signal will be coming down from the switchboard to the motherboard, to enable/disable the switching relay. Also... using a single switch can control both channels simultaneously via relays.

Just a headsup... power consumption will go up due to additional opamps and relays (when engaged).

HP Filtering.... Please vote!
60Hz
80Hz
120Hz

Also how much attenuation?
a shallow 6dB/octave,
12dB/octave,
or steep 18dB/octave?

I'll have to breadboard and play with some filters.

Project delayed.... until we have some HP filters working :) :)   






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Offline flipp

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Re: Greetings... my new mic preamp.
« Reply #314 on: August 12, 2008, 02:34:11 AM »

So here's what I'm thinking... The new set of (6) switches will be:
VU Meter ON/OFF
Phantom CH1
High Pass Filtering (both channels)
-20dB Pad (both channels)
Phantom CH2
Power ON/OFF


You have my ideal choice with those six. The one thing I have never had use for though is I have never run phantom on just one channel. So if you tied phantom to both channels you would have room for another option on switch 6.



Quote
Just a headsup... power consumption will go up due to additional opamps and relays (when engaged).

we're a resourceful lot, remote power can be found



Quote
HP Filtering.... Please vote!
60Hz
80Hz
120Hz

Also how much attenuation?
a shallow 6dB/octave,
12dB/octave,
or steep 18dB/octave?

my vote is for 80Hz, 6db/octave

« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 02:36:52 AM by flipp »

 

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