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Author Topic: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*  (Read 19937 times)

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 07:35:31 AM »
Aaronji asked a good question and I thought it deserved it's own topic...perhaps we can come up with a gold standard for product comparisons, and how some of the criteria may be achieved?

Let's not take for granted the way we do product comparisons here everyday...that seems to work pretty well - have "we" made any huge mistakes?

I get your drift - but this seems more like a contest than a comparison...

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 09:05:04 AM »
Like I've said before, it seems to me necessary to agree on why we're testing. 

If the object is to do with personal satisfaction, then the kind of test being discussed would doubtless indicate whether listening to identical recordings made in an identical way can show up differences between equipment items, and we can congratulate ourselves on our system choices if proved audibly better than the alternatives.

But if we're talking about whether people listening to a recording made by Joe Bloggs using system X prefer them to recordings made by Fred Smith using system Y, which is the real world concern of professionals, then the real test is to record different music in different places.  That's how Fred and Joe's recordings will be compared by their potential clients.  They wouldn't get the chance to listen to the kind of comparisons being discussed here.  And of course the chances of Joe's recordings being preferred because of the preamps or recorder he uses compared to Fred's is pretty small, unless Fred is using something seriously naff.  What makes much more difference is the mics and where they are placed - and the general competence of Fred vs Joe.  Heck, if Joe's a really nice guy and good to work with, he might even find his recordings are preferred because people know that great guy Joe made them, rather than that pain in the butt Fred.

Anyway, here's a thought - Mackie mixers have little button on the back to switch their output to mic level.  So you could connect a good line level source (eg CD player) to a Mackie and feed that sequentially at mic level to two recorders, and compare the results - pretty easy test to do.  What's the objection to that method?  I must try that out on the R-44 and the H2 - the difference should be very plain, but actually under real music signal conditions, would it be??

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 10:38:09 AM »
IMO in order to do a truly fair comparison the signal chain must be exactly the same minus the devices your trying to listen to. And if you cant do that then you dont have a fair comparison you have a guessing game and that is not fair to the vendor making the product or the consumer buying the product.



For example you were going to listen to mic cables you would want to clamp the mics so they could not move and replay the source wile only changing the mic cables otherwise what do you have? nothing because if you change anything other then the cables the objectiveness of the test is totaly lost.

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 05:24:03 PM »
Aaronji asked a good question and I thought it deserved it's own topic...perhaps we can come up with a gold standard for product comparisons, and how some of the criteria may be achieved?

Let's not take for granted the way we do product comparisons here everyday...that seems to work pretty well - have "we" made any huge mistakes?

I get your drift - but this seems more like a contest than a comparison...

I am not sure how you see this as a contest, it's called experimental control. It's mean to be a methodology for investigating the effects of components in the recording chain, for example I would think this would be good for comparing -

* Preamps
* Microphones
* Mods
* Cables
* Mic positioning
* Recorders

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 05:28:32 PM »
Like I've said before, it seems to me necessary to agree on why we're testing. 

If the object is to do with personal satisfaction, then the kind of test being discussed would doubtless indicate whether listening to identical recordings made in an identical way can show up differences between equipment items, and we can congratulate ourselves on our system choices if proved audibly better than the alternatives.

...

Anyway, here's a thought - Mackie mixers have little button on the back to switch their output to mic level.  So you could connect a good line level source (eg CD player) to a Mackie and feed that sequentially at mic level to two recorders, and compare the results - pretty easy test to do.  What's the objection to that method?  I must try that out on the R-44 and the H2 - the difference should be very plain, but actually under real music signal conditions, would it be??

I see there are several uses for a good blind methodology...

1. To determine if *anything* is audibly different (good for mic preamps, cables, mods, recorders, mics?).
2. Are you consistent in your preferences for a particular sound. So you post two tracks and prefer one for some reason. Are you consistent in identifying that 'sound' and preferring it? If so great, if not, you have learned something.

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 05:30:33 PM »
IMO in order to do a truly fair comparison the signal chain must be exactly the same minus the devices your trying to listen to. And if you cant do that then you dont have a fair comparison you have a guessing game and that is not fair to the vendor making the product or the consumer buying the product.



For example you were going to listen to mic cables you would want to clamp the mics so they could not move and replay the source wile only changing the mic cables otherwise what do you have? nothing because if you change anything other then the cables the objectiveness of the test is totaly lost.

Chris


I agree.

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Offline digifish_music

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 05:35:32 PM »
When I was choosing a portable recorder to record classical music .. I found the side by side comparisons on the WingField audio website incredibly helpful. 

What I tend to find is once you get over the low-end records, the recorder has less to do with the process and the microphones, placement, etc. have a lot more to do with it. ...
Wayne


I agree. IMO the main difference between the low and high end gear nowadays is the analog stage/s in front of the A/D converter (mic preamp). Throwing a quality mic preamp in fornt of most low end recorders makes them audibly indistinguishable from gear many times their cost. As I am sure you will be aware (since I keep evangelizing about the MixPre) I have been impressed by the MixPre + R09HR combo for quietude and solo instrument work. Actually that would be a good subject for the topic of this thread...

compare 7xx series, Nagra VI, Deva 4/5 VS (nice preamp + cheap recorder).

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« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 05:39:11 PM by digifish_music »
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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 07:25:54 PM »
The problem is this you have people that think using microphones in a live situation is different then sticking them in front of a pair of speakers and micing them..

I guess some of us just "think" a 4 piece jazz band sounds completely different live than in front of any pair of speakers.

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 08:58:26 PM »
...a MIDI-controlled grand piano in a good space ought to do nicely.  Everybody's got one of those, right?  OK, me neither  :-[


Imagining setting up a test in the lobby of the local fancy hotel.
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Offline RobertNC

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 09:27:21 PM »
I understand the motivation, and it is good in principle, but my 2 cents worth (it's in stocks not bonds by the way so you figure out the value).

First of all in terms of is it live or is it memorex, all I can say is that if you agree that "The problem is this you have people that think using microphones in a live situation is different then sticking them in front of a pair of speakers and micing them.." then all I can say is that is one helluva home entertainment system.  I would love to have it in my living room, but my primary home entertainment system is a woman - I don't think the two could peacefully co-exist.  (PM me if you are interested in a trade).

Second, statistics are not ears and brains.

Case in point.  Earlier this year I recorded a show next to Tony S with essentially the same back end chain, not in exactly the same location, but for the room, very comparable - two stands one seat between them.  I know, I know - definitely not a controlled experiment.  But still, by far the biggest difference was the mics - he ran DPAs, I ran Gefells.  I had been contemplating a set of DPAs for a long time at the time.

I listened to his recording later.  I listened to mine.  In my somewhat less than objective opinion, I will say in no uncertain terms his recording was "superior".   But I liked mine better.  I may still go for a pair of DPAs at some point in time but right now I've lost immediate interest and am piling up change for another set of caps for the Gefells instead.

Go figure, but it does not have to always make sense.

A waveform is a meaningful entity in terms of physics.  Physics can't define "music" though it can only measure a physical phenomenon.

Borrow gear.  Loan gear.  Buy gear.  Sell gear.

Recording music is just like music itself.   Music is an existential experience - stick your finger in the water and decide for yourself if it is fine or not.
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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 10:13:16 PM »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline digifish_music

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 10:21:33 PM »

Second, statistics are not ears and brains.

Case in point.  Earlier this year I recorded a show next to Tony S with essentially the same back end chain, not in exactly the same location, but for the room, very comparable - two stands one seat between them.  I know, I know - definitely not a controlled experiment.  But still, by far the biggest difference was the mics - he ran DPAs, I ran Gefells.  I had been contemplating a set of DPAs for a long time at the time.

I listened to his recording later.  I listened to mine.  In my somewhat less than objective opinion, I will say in no uncertain terms his recording was "superior".   But I liked mine better. 

We are not at odds here. People will be using their ears and relying on their own perception. If what you say is really true, and you really do like the sound of your mics better, then you should choose 10 instances of recordings from yours when compared to the DPA's. If you can't do that, then you were suffering from some distorted perception caused by expectation. Surely that is a good thing to know. I don't see how the methodology affects the Zen of 'liking' things.

In other words the methodology has nothing to do with what is superior. Just what you can reliably identify and choose.

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« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 10:35:15 PM by digifish_music »
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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 11:03:02 PM »
Audio is audio.... If it can be recorded and there are differences then we can hear them period :) If there are no differences then we cant. I dont think the  microphones and the preamp and the cables know the difference.. SOUND IS SOUND........ Does live sound different then a pair of speaker YEAH but we are not hear to judge the sound of the recordings we are hear to judge the difference between the two devices. Are you going to tell me that the device knows where it is and will only reveal its "magic" in a live situation... Hell we better get all these idiots out of the studio and tell them to stop wasting there time recording one track at a time because the magic is not there unless its through a loud PA system this argument is lame and its fostered by people that make a living from ignorance.

Sorry for the rant.


BTW if you cant hear it when a mic is plugged in AND "music" is played then there is no difference.. If you want a fair test DONT DO A NEAR FEILD RECORDING do it from a distance with a pair of speakers in the room that should show any differences just like a real live situation recording would. Because the mics are picking up the "room" the only difference is SPL and again we record in all kinds of situations I personally would not pay for a mod that I had to be in a 110 db concert to hear  and nobody has yet to give me a explanation of the differences of a mod in a low SPL recording environment vs a high spl environment I am still waiting :)


 I have worked with mics for over 20 years in the studio and live and I think that if you cant hear the mod in all types of situations is it really worth spending all that money on?

I am not btw saying that some of the guys that do mods dont improve the performance of the gear they touch and I am not saying anything about anyone here at T.S why because I have never had the chance to evaluate a mod that anyone has done in this forum up close and personal.

Don't go thinking I am talking down to anyone here or anywhere that does mods.. But I am saying show me the money.... You do mods I want to see specs and I want an objective before and after recordings so I can make up my own mind and anyone that buys mods with out these two things is rolling the dice IMO.



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Offline RobertNC

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 12:06:22 AM »
I could have reliably chosen between the two source I described because I can even express pretty clearly what the differences were.  The DPAs had a smoother sound across the board and better detail.  The Gefells were a little brighter and had less detail on the bottom end.  I have no doubt I could have said 10 outta 10 times without knowing which was which "This recording is technically superior - it has more detail particular on the low end and better balance across the entire range".  I am also sure I coulda said 10 outta 10 times "This recording is definitely brighter, a little rougher, and the bottom end is lacking in the clarity and detail of the other recording.  But it has a raw sort of punchy in your face sound that makes me feel like I am at the show and I really dig that kind of sound over the other IMO reasonably objectively technically superior recording".

I'm not knocking the concept, I think it is great idea.  I am just questioning the feasibility.  You would have to not only have a lotta controlled experiments, you would have to have a lot that covered the pretty wide range of stuff people tape.  For what I  mostly tape and the sound I like, for rock to me the Gefells just absolutely rock.

I am sure that taping a different genre of music I would have liked the detail of DPAs better.  You would have to not only have a lotta controlled experiments, you would have to have a lotta controlled experments that covered the pretty wide range of stuff people tape too.  That is quite a library of experiments to capture and especially if you are really serious about controlling all the non-gear variables.

And then beyond that you still have real world to ultimately deal with.  IMO by far the biggest variables are two which I have in one case no control over and in the other case, often very limited if any control over - venue and location.  Those are major practical factors that are hard to incorporate into an organized program that already requires a lot of control over a lotta gear over a lotta genres to even be useful as a concept.

Let's face it, with any gear there are some situations so abysmal  Jesus could not pull a good tape.  But what about the practical taper like me who is often faced with a mix of sometimes pretty sweet spots, other times where location and or venue is definitley compromised, and the occasional situation where I go and put gear up because that is what I do, with the attitude of hey I like to see shows, like to tape shows, and do, but as far as the results, before I even hit record I already know what I am gonna get can be described as nothing more flattering than "I documented the show".

Add those variables, and not only does the matrix start becoming really huge, seriously how many of us have the desire, much less the time and opportunity to extend a large matrix of equipment and genres to also include "let's also set up as many controlled experiments with as wide a range as possible of gear in shitty location and or shitty rooms?

But that is not only a real consideration, but also really a primary consideration.

And to use the DPAs again as an example.  Please don't be offended anyone, but as far as the higher end gear I see people actually run regularly if it cames to say Scheops vs DPAs, it would not even be a decision for me. I think for the taper community and admittedly a broadly brushed stereotype, to me at least the DPAs are really the premier line i see in any sort of regular rotation. 

And don't interpret my next statement as me presenting as "fact", it is definitely not - I've never even owned a pair.  But I've heard the same thing from more than one taper I respect highly and that have run many kinds of gear that while DPAs make stellar recordings, higher quality also comes with less forgiveness.  Again that is pure anecdote, and second hand anecdote at that. But having heard the same thing and from the people I've heard the same thing from, I am by no means ready to just dismiss that there may be some merit to what they have said.

Don't get me wrong.  What you are proposing is very logical.  It has many genuinely useful merits.  And I respect that the level of effort of trying to follow though is truly admirable.

I'm just not convinced that concept of gold standards caneven be applied for the real world tapers in the real world environment faced with so many real scenarios.

But again, not trying to discourage, just suggesting that I think the approach of meeting fellow tapers at the kind of shows you tape, exchanging dialogue and then eventually exchanging gear and occasionally managing to just try to get together somewhere every once in a while and do some kind of basic collaboration at a show, while far from scientific, is still a strategy that while not yielding metrics, can nevertheless provide some genuinely valuable exposure to make hopefully what to to you personally prove to be equipment purchases that you feel were seriously worthwhile changes...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 12:08:01 AM by RobertNC »
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Offline RobertNC

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Re: Taperssection - product listening comparisons *gold standard*
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 12:27:41 AM »

 I have worked with mics for over 20 years in the studio and live and I think that if you cant hear the mod in all types of situations is it really worth spending all that money on?


What you say makes scientific sense.  I am a hobbyist, not an enginerr.

I'm not talking about mods here.

However, when I bought my Gefells the first thing I did was set them up and record in the living room.  The  I set my ADK LDs up exactly same and recorded the exact same things.

Now these are really different microphones, not just in design, but in quality too.

I listened to the results numerous times.   My final analysis was that I was really glad I had a real show to tape the next week.  Because after this little experiment, I was thinking wow, that was a shitload of money, and I can hear a difference but just barely.  I sure hope I did not make that kind if purchase to essentially mostly lower my profile.

After I taped a real show, the money spent was a total non-issue.

No matter how unscientific, my opinion is (and again I'm not a sound engineer, but I am a degreed engineer and at least understand logical experimental design and control) , sorry, my firm opinion is that field and living room are apples and oranges.
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