Topic: Help me help myself!

[Finnbot3000]

I play the drums in The Presidents of the United States of America (yes, it's a hell of a long name).  We want to dip our little feet into the world of recording shows.  Gingerly.  While it's possible we may try to sell shows at some point in the future, everyone agrees the place to start is some simple 'field recordings' that hopefully sound good enough to give away.  I guess that will make us tapers.  BTW, our taping policy has always been wide open , although I don't know how often anyone's taken us up on it.  About the closest we've come to a taping scene was when we played at last summer's moedown.  But that's another story.

Anyways, I need advice on a starter rig that I can acquire quickly.  We're starting a run in Europe on the 19th that I'd like to record all of. 

Stealth not an issue, in fact our FOH guy will be placing the mics. 

I'm liking the looks of the Marantz PMD661...what 2 mics would you use with it?  Or...talk me into the sony one.  Does it have xlr inputs like the marantz?  Is my natural Gadget-dorkness leading me to the most expensive one for no good reason?

make me look good when I walk into practice this weekend with 'the solution'!

JF



 

[TNJazz]

You need to set a budget.  The 661 is still pretty new, but so far people seem to like it pretty well.

So how much do you want to spend on mics?  Under $500?  $500-$1000?  $1000-1500?  More?

There are a number of excellent choices in each of those price brackets, so throw out a number and I predict you'll see a massive pile-on of advice in a very short time!   

[Humbug]

BTW, our taping policy has always been wide open , although I don't know how often anyone's taken us up on it.  About the closest we've come to a taping scene was when we played at last summer's moedown.  But that's another story.

Looks like someone's been taping you!

http://db.etree.org/bs_d.php?artist_key=1952

[dave w]

In addition to a budget for mics (too many options out there without a budget), it would be very helpful to know what type/size rooms you are typically playing in.  That will make a big difference with, for example, the closest to ideal pickup pattern for the mics you will be using.  Additionally, some mics tend to be more forgiving of poor room acoustics than others.
--Dave

[bgalizio]

Obviously depends on budget, but considering it is a band's equipment I would go 4 channels. An Edirol R-44, mics to suit your budget, and 2 channel SBD feed would be quite nice.

[Belexes]

Or...talk me into the sony one.  Does it have xlr inputs like the marantz?

I think you mean the Sony D50 and no it does not have xlr's for the mics. There is an adapter available for a stereo outboard XLR connection, but I don't think anyone here has tried it's priced as much as the deck itself.

[OFOTD]

Obviously depends on budget, but considering it is a band's equipment I would go 4 channels. An Edirol R-44, mics to suit your budget, and 2 channel SBD feed would be quite nice.

My suggestion as well.   Boa and the crew with the Black Crowes are doing the very thing the OP is wanting to do with a R44 and Gefell's I believe.

[Finnbot3000]

Budget: Probably under 1k all in to start, so probably 500 or so for mics.  And I'm probably going to have to talk my singer into having seperate mics in the first place. Thinking small.  And definitely just 2 inputs for now.  The Edirol looks like more than we can bite off to start.

Rooms:  Thousand seaters, basically.  Lots of HOBs, 9:30 club, Showbox, etc....some smaller places thrown in.



   

[TNJazz]

FR2-LE:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118213.0.html

AKG 460's:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118388.0.html

Total:  somewhere around $850-ish.  Add cables, stand, accessories and you should still come in well under budget.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

You'd make good recordings with this rig I'd bet.


http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html  $450

http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOSFR2LE  $599


EDIT:  Dirk beat me to it. 

[maidencolorado]

I play the drums in The Presidents of the United States of America (yes, it's a hell of a long name).  ...  BTW, our taping policy has always been wide open , although I don't know how often anyone's taken us up on it. 

See you a couple of times in April (Philly and DC), I may just take you up on the open taping.

[nameloc01]

The Marantz is sweeter than a case of peaches.

[landshark]

I have one word (maybe two)

SoundBoard.

I'm tracking out a multi-channel set I did for a friend of mine, with three sources:

akg 483's > MixPre > Korg MR1 (all in, call it $3k)
Sennheiser MKH 8040's > Korg MR1000 (all in, another $3k)
Soundboard> 2 1/4" male to male plugs > Microtrack 24/96 (the original) all in, ~$300 bucks.

The mics capture the ambiance of the show, but the soundboard feed is basically using the mics and amps of the performance, and in terms of fidelity kicks butt.  A very clean source. 

Of course, it's a little "sterile" so mixing with the other sources (using Adobe Audition) will warm it up a bit.
Since you're not only "with the band" , you ARE the band, getting the soundboard fees from each show will give you a huge increase in fidelity over ambient mics alone.  That's where the R44 comes in.

Mike

[Belexes]

You'd make good recordings with this rig I'd bet.

http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html  $450

http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOSFR2LE  $599


EDIT:  Dirk beat me to it. 

This is my rig and it's hard to beat for the price.  You can get the Fostex FR2-LE on Ebay from the "new-items-only" seller by making an offer of around $425 and I think they will accept it as a purchase.

The Busman mics are a great value with the interchangeable capsules which will come in handy given the different rooms your band plays.

[illconditioned]

Nice to see band members taping.  Both to improve and to capture the vibe for history.

OK, I recommend the following:
- Edirol R44 four track rig, $800 now?  I don't know price
- Small condensors: cheap $200 used SP C4 pair, more money $800, Beyerdynamic MC930 pair.

Record four tracks, two soundboard, and two with the mics ORTF/DIN on a stand just in front of the mixer board.

Measure the distance between the board and the PA speakers.  Note this down for mixing later.  Add delay of 1ms/foot for soundboard, and mix mics + sbd to taste.

You will get excellent sound and value from this setup.

  Richard

[su6oxone]

BTW, our taping policy has always been wide open , although I don't know how often anyone's taken us up on it.  About the closest we've come to a taping scene was when we played at last summer's moedown. 

Very cool!  Have you guys thought about joining the Live Music Archive (archive.org)?  That would be even better. 

[im hungover]

BTW, our taping policy has always been wide open , although I don't know how often anyone's taken us up on it.  About the closest we've come to a taping scene was when we played at last summer's moedown. 

Very cool!  Have you guys thought about joining the Live Music Archive (archive.org)?  That would be even better. 

and there are quite a few bands these days offer up a guest list spot for a taper or two

[su6oxone]

and there are quite a few bands these days offer up a guest list spot for a taper or two

guestlist +1

 

[Finnbot3000]

well of course there would have to be a +1.  Otherwise who would hold the beers while the mics were being placed.

There is a crapload of valuable advice here, except from the guy with the Portland Trailblazers logo in his signature.  I hate that guy.

to recap:

we need a recorder with built in mics, AND inputs (preferably xlr).  My singer has a possible line on a Zoom H4, but I'm not loving what I'm reading about that model here or elsewhere.  So the dilemma is find the cheapest good recorder (400?) so I can spend 400 bucks on mics. I mean 300 bucks. 

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

WTF?  Do I know you?

EDIT: Upon further research on wiki and google I have never met you, don't know you, never have seen a Presidents show or any band you've played in or own any releases you are on.  But yet you hate me?

[tgakidis]

FR2-LE:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118213.0.html

AKG 460's:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118388.0.html

Total:  somewhere around $850-ish.  Add cables, stand, accessories and you should still come in well under budget.

I am stunned, Dirk recommending AKG's?  The world MUST be comming to an end 

[Jamos]

WTF?  Do I know you?

EDIT: Upon further research on wiki and google I have never met you, don't know you, never have seen a Presidents show or any band you've played in or own any releases you are on.  But yet you hate me?
Well fuck right off asshole.

Maybe he just meant that he doesn't like the Trailblazers?
 

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Maybe... and if he did I recant my rant but I am just at a loss.  Never had anyone say they hate me.  Ever.  Especially a musician.  I edited the end of it until clarity is made.

[Nick's Picks]

what he said....
(Richards post above).

Def. the way to go.

If you must stick w/two channels for budget, you can still do some AUD/SBD with an edirol UA5.  tons of them in the yard sale.  nice sounding little box.  it acts as a mixer too, so you can pump RCA inputs in as well as XLRs, though you can't mix the delay needed, nor can you separate the channels.

as for mics...
if you want really cheap and wicked quality for the investment, the AT 853u is pretty awesome.  sound pro's has them on sale for $150 a pair.
An edirol R9 behind these, good to go.  $500 total.

Or...
Studio Projects LSD2 stereo microphone.  Its big, ugly...., could be a weapon of mass destruction, but it sounds freakin' great, is quick and easy to setup and would allow you to record in M-S mode for later mix down, eliminating that "get it right on the fly" syndrome.
You could probably find a used one in the $500 range.  new they are $700.

go TrailBlazers !

[TNJazz]

FR2-LE:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118213.0.html

AKG 460's:  http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118388.0.html

Total:  somewhere around $850-ish.  Add cables, stand, accessories and you should still come in well under budget.

I am stunned, Dirk recommending AKG's?  The world MUST be comming to an end 

AKGs are fine when you're just starting out and you're on a budget.  Once money isn't the first concern anymore, it's time to look elsewhere though (IMO).

Anyway, to the OP:  a recorder with built in mics will NOT give you the results you're looking for.  Period.

[Belexes]

Don't concern yourself with recorders with internal mics.  Most of us here are external mic purists as the quality goes up by leaps and bounds.  I own a Sony D50, but almost never use the internal mics.  You'll be recording music, not using it to do your dictation.

[Finnbot3000]

Mark!

That was supposed to be funny. A Trailblazers thing.  I'm from Seattle, and we are still a little tender from loosing our Sonics.  And a central part of Sonic-dom, as you know, is the SEA-PDX enmity, which was drilled into me from birth.  Actually I secretly watch the Trailblazers sometimes when they are on espn to follow Brandon Roy (Husky!), but if my family found out I would be disowned.

Sorry for the misfire!

I don't really hate anybody, except for all three Jonas Brothers.

[Will_S]

Anyway, to the OP:  a recorder with built in mics will NOT give you the results you're looking for.  Period.

Agree to a point:  the internal mics will NOT give the results you're looking for.  But technically, the FR2LE and Edirol R44 both have internal mics, they're just useless.  As are the mics built into just about everything except maybe the Sony.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

I'm sorry too for my misunderstanding!  It's all good Jason.  And yes the Jonas Brothers do suck ass.   

Mark!

That was supposed to be funny. A Trailblazers thing.  I'm from Seattle, and we are still a little tender from loosing our Sonics.  And a central part of Sonic-dom, as you know, is the SEA-PDX enmity, which was drilled into me from birth.  Actually I secretly watch the Trailblazers sometimes when they are on espn to follow Brandon Roy (Husky!), but if my family found out I would be disowned.

Sorry for the misfire!

I don't really hate anybody, except for all three Jonas Brothers.

[Craig T]

My recommendation would be the Edirol R-44 and a stereo mic such as the Studio Projects LSD2 or Busman BSCS-M or BSCS-L.  Record 2-ch soundboard and 2-ch stereo mic.

If that's way out of your budget, maybe the Sony PCM-D50?  I've heard a few small club recordings done with the internal mics that sounded decent.

[stevetoney]

As a musician, you'll understand how the internal mics on a $400 recorder are likely to be afterthoughts in terms of the quality of the gear installed by the manufacturer.  Think el cheapo microphones being used to record college classroom recordings of a professors lecture or a journalists interview...but DEF not music fidelity.

So, the recorder should be for recording and, well, a reasonable pair of mics for sound fidelity.

As far as recorders, there have been many worthy suggestions made already in this thread.  Personally, I'd stay away from the pocket units simply because, as a traveling band, I'd think the chances are high that it would find its way into someone else's pocket.  At $400 or so used, the FR2LE would be perfect...so would the PMD-661.  

Since you're just starting, I'd go ahead and make sure to start with a 24-bit recorder.  Why not?  Prices are nearly the same now as the older 16-bit recorders, although they'd work just fine if you decided on...say...and used PMD-660 which is a FINE recorder too.

For mics, I suggest going onto www.archive.org and searching for and listening to show samples that use the microphones in your price range to determine those that meet your expectations for sound quality...here are some mics that I know of that fall in the $200 to $400 range for a pair...I think there are LOTS of others that I'm not recalling at the moment.

Audio Technica AT-853 (aka SP-CMC-4)
Octava MC-012
AKG-460 series (non-modded)
AKG-390 series
AKG-c1000
Studio Project C4
Avantone C-1
Church Audio CA-14
Church Audio CA-11
Nakamichi CM-300

I'd also note that most of these mics are currently available used in our yard sale. 

I'd HIGHLY recommend buying used because for a $1k budget, you'll significantly increase the quality of your gear that way.  This amount is a sort of break point...above $1k you can start to expect better sounding recordings.  Below $1k, you have to work a little harder to have sound expectations met...but it's still VERY possible with the gear people are recommending.  Point is that $1k goes alot farther buying used that it does buying new.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Will_S]

To follow up on the good points Steve (tonedeaf) made...

If you're considering used, don't forget the Edirol R4.  I think there are still one or two in the Yard Sale for <$600?  This could be really handy for band use since it has a built in hard drive, so you can record several shows in a row rather than having to copy them off a flash card you recycle each night.  And having the option to mix in a board feed with your room mics will really help in lesser-sounding rooms.

Good list of mics above.  In that price range you could also consider the Audix M1280/M1290s (used), the Busman Audio mics, and Studio Projects LSD2.  Maybe some of the Rode mics (eg NT5) are worth considering as well, although opinions here are pretty split on them.  I've heard some Rode tapes I really liked, but not many.

[im hungover]

Studio Projects C4s are very nice sounding for around $200 ive pulled some smokin tapes with them!

[Brian Skalinder]

Just chiming in to echo the recommendations for a 4-ch recorder to capture SBD + mics, even if it means you have to start off with really inexpensive mics.

[stevetoney]

If I may elaborate a little bit for the sake of explanation. 

Alot of people on this list are experts at recording a bands' music.  Many of us are passionate about getting the best sounding recordings possible and some have well over ten grand invested to prove it!  Most bands nowadays are happy enough to allow us to record them, but really can't be bothered before the show setting up for SBD access...either because they don't want anyone futznig around the SBD or they don't have the time to mix for the SBD output channels.  However, given a choice, I think the larger majority of people on this board would pounce on the opportunity to get a SBD matrix if bands provided that option.

Since you ARE the band, getting permission is not an issue.  So, many people are recommending the relatively inexpensive 4-channel R-44 (new they go for around $800 but since it's one of the most popular items on this list, not many used R-44's are seen in the yard sale) and there are one or two use R-4's out there for less.  (The R-4 came out a few years before the R-44...the R-4 being also 4-channels but larger.)

I definitely agree that you should give this VERY strong consideration...and as Brian suggested above, even a SBD matrix mixed with a relatively inexpensive pair of mics (to give the recording air and ambience, since unmatrixed virgin SBDs can be very sterile sounding) would be KILLER...and orders of magnitude better in sound quality than what you'd get with an inexpensive mic pair only. 

So, for $1K I'd definitely go with an R-44 for $800 and a $200 pair of mics and run a 4-channel matrix.  You'll get killer recordings with that setup.

Hope this explains a little more why so many people are recommending going this route.

[sunjan]

If you must stick w/two channels for budget, you can still do some AUD/SBD with an edirol UA5.  tons of them in the yard sale.  nice sounding little box.  it acts as a mixer too, so you can pump RCA inputs in as well as XLRs, though you can't mix the delay needed, nor can you separate the channels.

as for mics...
if you want really cheap and wicked quality for the investment, the AT 853u is pretty awesome.  sound pro's has them on sale for $150 a pair.
An edirol R9 behind these, good to go.  $500 total.

Agree with this, except that I'd put a digital recorder behind the UA-5. Microtrack does 24bit and can be had for $200.

But really, all this skimping is sad, considering that you're in the band and have full access to the board. 
Since you have no size restrictions and can even run the gear on AC, you shouldn't be fiddling with these small boxes.

The cheapest R4 I could find at the moment is $700: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300296931814
If this unit is still around you could try haggling it down: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,109668.0.html

That gives you $300-something for mics and stand.

[BristolMookie]

If you want to bring a Marantz for me to play with that's fine with me. I always wanted a go with one.

And I guess it'll be desk mix plus a couple of ambients using the new matched pair of condensers that'll be arriving on monday. I'm not saying what they are but I like them, and you've given me an excuse.

J

[Krispy D]

don't forget about the Peluso CEMC6 pair.  for under $600 they are some of the best sounding mics on the market.  Add some subcard caps and they are perfect for 1000 seat theater shows!

[Nick's Picks]

Good piont (above w/the Peluso rec w/the sub card caps, that would kick ass w/the SBD mixed in)

[612]

Hey Jason, way off topic but maybe Minneapolis is in the cards this summer. I'd tape.

See also... http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,118709.0.html

[bugg100]

Just chiming in to echo the recommendations for a 4-ch recorder to capture SBD + mics, even if it means you have to start off with really inexpensive mics.

My vote would be for this setup and a stage pair using the house snake....

[popskull]

I would recommend a 4 channel recorder like the Edirol R4 or R44 as well

2 mics onstage to get the instruments + sdb feed = quick and easy sdb/aud 4 channel to mix the next day on the tour bus

It has a big enough hd to do a couple shows before filling up

My recommendation would be the Edirol R-44 and a stereo mic such as the Studio Projects LSD2 or Busman BSCS-M or BSCS-L.  Record 2-ch soundboard and 2-ch stereo mic.

If that's way out of your budget, maybe the Sony PCM-D50?  I've heard a few small club recordings done with the internal mics that sounded decent.