Topic: FOB vs. Matrix in this situation

[Sloan Simpson]

I'm doing a show at a local club with a bill I put together this week. The room is rated for 450 capacity, although I've been to shows with about twice that stuffed in there. In any case, my show will be fairly sparsely attended. 

The room is a square, with the soundboard along the back wall. For many years I've recorded with mics at about the middle of the room. Recently I've added a DR-680 and have down a few matrices, which of course requires me to be at the back of the room. The matrices have turned out well, but all of them were at fairly crowded shows.

I came to the venue recently to see a friend (who also has a DR-680) taping from the FOB spot. When I asked why he wasn't doing a matrix, he said that the mic position for a matrix doesn't sound good with a smaller crowd.

I really hadn't thought about the number of bodies in the room impacting reflections, etc. that much. Any thoughts on which you would go for? I'm thinking we'll probably only have about 50 people in the room.

[obaaron]

I record in a similar room (bar) quite often here in San Diego. (square-ish, board at back right, holds ~250).    I have come to the conclusion that SBD with mics onstage is really the only way to go to avoid too much chatter and glass clanking around.  The onstage mics really fill out the SBD which is  usually very heavy on vocals, keys, horns, etc.  I have tried the DFC/FOB aus mics but in venues this size everyone typically migrates to that space and get way too much yappin for my taste.

It sounds like you will have free reign at this show, so if that's the case, that's how I would roll!


edit:  This of course would require to have two recording decks (or REAL long XLR's lol) and aligning in post...easy though with an onstage source.

Good luck!

[ScoobieKW]

Tip for running onstage and soundboard.

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake. If so, patch into the snake onstage and patch out from the snake at FOH. If no channels are free, ask about returns. Either run the deck onstage or use some male to male and female to female cable XLR cables/barrels to change the gender of the returns.

[page]

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake.

I've even sent a sbd feed or other channel feed back to the stage as that was easier than shipping my channels back to the sbd. Just takes a bunch of gender benders.

For the original question, I think bvaz has what I'd do; take a sbd feed of what they think is deficient from the stage sound, then do an onstage pair to compensate. If you only have 4 channels available, that's it. If you have more, then you can start to get fancy with having a pair at the sbd for ambiance between songs or during a swell, one on stage for the general mix fill, and the sbd feed for the other half of the mix (in theory).

[ScoobieKW]

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake.

I've even sent a sbd feed or other channel feed back to the stage as that was easier than shipping my channels back to the sbd. Just takes a bunch of gender benders.

For the original question, I think bvaz has what I'd do; take a sbd feed of what they think is deficient from the stage sound, then do an onstage pair to compensate. If you only have 4 channels available, that's it. If you have more, then you can start to get fancy with having a pair at the sbd for ambiance between songs or during a swell, one on stage for the general mix fill, and the sbd feed for the other half of the mix (in theory).

All good advice. another option for mics 5&6 are two shotguns or hypercardioid mics onstage aimed at the audience.

[Sloan Simpson]

While I think onstage access might be possible sometime in the future, there will be a number of stress factors at this show that make me want to not spring something new on the club. They are used to me in the middle of the room, or back by the board, but I want to make their night trouble-free otherwise (several things have gone wrong in the planning of this show).

I would have leaned toward doing the matrix until my friend advised against it. I'm just unsure of how much the room being empty will detract from having my mics that far back.

[ScoobieKW]

Empty rooms have less talkers.

 

Free Jazz FTW

[Sloan Simpson]

Yeah if I have a talker problem that won't be too bad, because it will mean some people actually showed up 

One of my acts is an ambient guitar drone thing, which can certainly be yapped over. The other two are pretty damn loud rock bands (Five Eight and Motherf*cker), so chatter won't really be an issue. I guess I was thinking in terms of room reflections being absorbed.

[deadheadcorey]

Tip for running onstage and soundboard.

Ask the FOH Engineer if he has any channels free in the house snake. If so, patch into the snake onstage and patch out from the snake at FOH. If no channels are free, ask about returns. Either run the deck onstage or use some male to male and female to female cable XLR cables/barrels to change the gender of the returns.

this.

[F.O.Bean]

I ALWAYS run FOB/DFC in a few small clubs/bars here in Pittsburgh, and I'd rather have an FOB/DFC DAUD rather than having a SBD/DAUD matrix from the back of the room!

[page]

how balanced do you think the sbd feed will be? Can you get a submix? If that's moot then my last suggestion is this:

One option would be to ask for the feed and not use it until you need it (or use it with an M10 type recorder) and run up front. If things get hairy or you want to retreat, then you don't have to bug them, just go back to the sbd and plug in.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

When I started going to shows early, for sound check, I was really surprised at what a difference the empty room made.  The sound that is able to reflect off the bare floor vs. the comb filtering of higher frequencies that results from fabric covered bodies.  So it was kinda funny to be standing on a ladder, trying to evaluate the tone for the optimal mic placement.  Still useful experience, but it does not necessarily translate to the full venue.

I suppose it's yet another reason why the sound needs to be adjusted as the venue fills.

[Sloan Simpson]

My latest thought is to borrow my friend's 680 and run it separately on the board, with mine running up front. I hate dealing with the drift but that will probably give me the best to work with.

[Gutbucket]

Nothing much to add, mostly just confirming:

First choice of an onstage pair (with optional audience facing pair from stage) + SBD all recorded to the DR-680 using the venue's snake.

If that's out, use both of your recorders and..

Either expand on your known good setup without stressing out yourself and the venue-
AUD pair from your regular FOB spot, plus SBD to your M10.
(that gets you your standard AUD and lets you sync and matrix it with the SBD if you care to make the effort)

Or if it's cool to put mics onstage, but not use the snake-
Put the DR-680 onstage with a pair (or three or four) plus the optional aud facing pair. SBD to your M10 in back.
(that may get you everything you really need on the DR-680 alone, plus the SBD to sync and matrix with it if necessary)

Substitute your friend's DR-680 for the M10 back at the board if you like.  Oh, and eventhough Scoob mentions shotguns or supercards for the optional audience facing mics from the stage, that pair can be useful regardless of mic pattern, so if you have an extra pair of cardioids or omnis and the time to set them up without stressing things, go ahead and use them.  You don't have to use those channels but may as well run 'em if you got 'em.

[danlynch]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.