Topic: How can I improve my recordings?

[livingdna]

Been passionately taping for years, but have kind of hit my limit regarding sound quality. My recordings seem to be of too low amplitude and when I amplify post recording the noise level increase. Also, I seem to generally have too much bass. A small sample at http://chirb.it/Jp9d7N.

I would really appreciate any hints about how to best improve om the quality of my recordings. Should I concentrate on post processing (if so what kind?), record at a higher gain (currently using gain 4, Line-In), upgrade my mics or something different?

My setup:
SP-BMC-6 binaurals
SP-SPSB-6 (usually at @95Hz)
PCM-M10

[yates7592]

First I would ask what type of music you record, in which position, and what peak levels are you getting with your M10 set at 4? If you're peaking around -10dB to -12dB then just leave it at 4. If you're say closer to -20dB or even lower then you could def up the M10 to 5 or 6. If you're recording fairly quiet or non-amplified music then you might also consider going mic-in. Recording in 24 bit will also reduce noise levels if you have to amplify in post.

Regarding bass, I would not use the bass roll-off on your battery box (switch it off or to the lowest setting), but instead use a simple EQ plug-in to roll-off bass in post to taste. Much more controllable that way.

If none of the above helps then you may want to upgrade your mics. There are plenty of reasonably priced options beyond SP-BMC-6.

Good luck!

[livingdna]

I mainly record post-rock which is a challenge due to the great variation on amplitude - from quit to ear shattering loud. My position varies, but I mainly tape at small venues so I assume it's not that relevant?

Peak levels: Typically around -15dB so will try to raise the gain a bit next time. Also will try without the bass roll-off.

Thanks for the tips - look forward trying it out!

Regarding mics, any particular mic you could recommend in the us$500 range?

First I would ask what type of music you record, in which position, and what peak levels are you getting with your M10 set at 4? If you're peaking around -10dB to -12dB then just leave it at 4. If you're say closer to -20dB or even lower then you could def up the M10 to 5 or 6. If you're recording fairly quiet or non-amplified music then you might also consider going mic-in. Recording in 24 bit will also reduce noise levels if you have to amplify in post.

Regarding bass, I would not use the bass roll-off on your battery box (switch it off or to the lowest setting), but instead use a simple EQ plug-in to roll-off bass in post to taste. Much more controllable that way.

If none of the above helps then you may want to upgrade your mics. There are plenty of reasonably priced options beyond SP-BMC-6.

Good luck!

[yates7592]

In that case you should def stick with line-in, and try your M10 on '5' next time. I think that would probably bring you up to around -10dB if you're currently at -15dB. That will help reduce noise a bit.

Regarding recording position, I just thought if you were stack taping (for example) then if you moved away from the stacks (either direction) then you might not get such bassy pulls.

$500 budget for mics gives you some options. Are you looking for omni's or cardioids?

[Chuck]

Also, maybe buy a pair of small cardioid mics. They will generally have less bass response than the omni's you are using now.

Chris Church's cardioids get good reviews here and they are much less than your stated budget.

[livingdna]

Will definitely try gain 5 next time!

If I do go for a mic upgrade it will be to cardiods. Been hearing good things about the Church cardiods, but I wonder if there would be notable quality improvement if I spend my full budget for another option?

As for positioning, I generally don't stack tape.

[brad.bartels]

Do you record at 16 bit or 24 bit? If one of the main problems is noise or hiss when you have to boost the levels after the fact, recording at 24 bit should help that out quite a bit if you've been recording at 16 bit. I agree as well to not use the bass roll-off and to it in post unless it's really consistently overbearring. If that's the case, you might need to look at some other issues like positioning or mic response, etc. If you want to post a small sample of one of your raw recordings, I'm sure a couple of people would download and see what they can do with it. I'd do what I could (not that I'm an expert) and send it back to you. Might also help to identify other improvements you might be able to make.

I started with a similar setup as you , SP mics and battery box. I had some of the same issues with hiss when amplifying 16-bit (probably would with my current equipment as well), but since going to 24-bit, I've almost never had that issue. I also try to run around -10 to -12 peak, so a little bit hotter than where you're running, but not by much.

[yates7592]

Re the mics, if you have a budget of $500, then def spend it ALL, or even better, beg/borrow/steal/save and then spend even MORE. Believe me, I've wasted so much money penny-pinching and fannying around with multiple small microphone upgrades, then selling on at a loss x months later when the upgrade itch kicks in (maybe that's just me)....
I'm not a heavy cardioid user, but I believe there are better options out there for $500(+) than the Church Audio mics (fine mics that they are). I will let others with more practical experience than I chime in.

[earmonger]

I don't quite understand how you are getting bass-heavy recordings when you are rolling off bass at 95Hz. It suggests to me that you should think about better mic positioning. If they are on the floor or in a corner or someplace that can act like a bass trap, get them up in the air.

I also agree with the post above that you should not bother with bass roll-off on the input. The PCM-M10 can handle bass, and it's better to have it and EQ it later than not to have it at all.

I tried looking up BMC-6 but SoundPros seems to have dropped them from its lineup.

The mics are the most crucial element, and if repositioning yours doesn't help, then upgrade.  Chris Church's $150 mics were a significant upgrade from my old SoundPro mics, but I didn't have the ones you're using.  My budget's below $500, but maybe some higher-end folks can chime in.

I do note that Busman mics, often mentioned here, are $599 new for a stereo pair with three different capsules--though they also require a Phantom Power source (not the PCM-M10's plug-in power).

http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html

Also, look in the Yard Sale for goodies.

Cardioids may be good if you can fix them in position and if they are pricey enough to have full bass (many lower-priced cardioids cut off or roll off the bass too high for my tastes). But if you are stealthing them, or moving around, the fact that they are directional will make for wavery recordings. I'm a big omni fan myself.

[Ziggz]

^ Looks like the BMC-6 were AT-803b

https://web.archive.org/web/20050304044217/http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?item=SP-BMC-6&type=store

[livingdna]

I just realized that I wrote the name of my old mics instead of the ones I currently use - apologies for the confusion. Current setup is with SP-CMC-8!

Have considered upgrading with the AT853C-ELE cardioid elements, but again; I am willing to spend my full budget if it will give me significant improvements to aim higher.
One thing to note: I tape stealth so mics and batterybox must not be bigger than current setup(SP-CMC-8 / SP-SPSB-6).

As for recording format: I record at 24 bit, 48.000 kHz.

Here's a sample song:

http://www6.zippyshare.com/v/5697570/file.html

I would be every so grateful for tips regarding improvements of this. Sound processing is new land to me.

Regarding mics placement: They are strapped to my shoulders.

[acidjack]

I just realized that I wrote the name of my old mics instead of the ones I currently use - apologies for the confusion. Current setup is with SP-CMC-8!

Have considered upgrading with the AT853C-ELE cardioid elements, but again; I am willing to spend my full budget if it will give me significant improvements to aim higher.
One thing to note: I tape stealth so mics and batterybox must not be bigger than current setup(SP-CMC-8 / SP-SPSB-6).

As for recording format: I record at 24 bit, 48.000 kHz.

Here's a sample song:

http://www6.zippyshare.com/v/5697570/file.html

I would be every so grateful for tips regarding improvements of this. Sound processing is new land to me.

Regarding mics placement: They are strapped to my shoulders.

The number one way you can improve your recordings is wearing those mics on glasses or on a hat instead of on your shoulders. Shoulders are really bad especially for something directional, since it's hard to keep them aimed properly.

Second biggest thing you can do is learn post-processing software. It's amazing what you can do in post if you know what you're doing.

The sample isn't bad, it's just muffled and kind of bassy. Both are related to your placement on your body and probably where you are in the room. But, you could make this sound much better with some judicious EQ in the 250Hz range and below.

[darktrain]

I just realized that I wrote the name of my old mics instead of the ones I currently use - apologies for the confusion. Current setup is with SP-CMC-8!

Have considered upgrading with the AT853C-ELE cardioid elements, but again; I am willing to spend my full budget if it will give me significant improvements to aim higher.
One thing to note: I tape stealth so mics and batterybox must not be bigger than current setup(SP-CMC-8 / SP-SPSB-6).

As for recording format: I record at 24 bit, 48.000 kHz.

Here's a sample song:

http://www6.zippyshare.com/v/5697570/file.html

I would be every so grateful for tips regarding improvements of this. Sound processing is new land to me.

Regarding mics placement: They are strapped to my shoulders.

The number one way you can improve your recordings is wearing those mics on glasses or on a hat instead of on your shoulders. Shoulders are really bad especially for something directional, since it's hard to keep them aimed properly.

Second biggest thing you can do is learn post-processing software. It's amazing what you can do in post if you know what you're doing.

The sample isn't bad, it's just muffled and kind of bassy. Both are related to your placement on your body and probably where you are in the room. But, you could make this sound much better with some judicious EQ in the 250Hz range and below.

^THIS ....as soon as I got my mics up high it made a world of difference

[livingdna]

Appreciate the input!

It makes a lot of sense to get the mics up higher. However, I find it difficult maintaining the stealthiness. Won't at least the visible cables be a problem in that respect?

[acidjack]

^ There are various ways to cover your neck.  The cables of the mics are very small

Sound Professionals sells a number of items designed to increase stealthiness. Are your CMC-8s omnis? If so, they even have a special hat made just for them. It only works with omnis, but it's quite effective with them.

[livingdna]

Omnis indeed.

I guess this is the hat? http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-HMS-1. For sure worth a try

[Lostbrook]

Personally I find it much easier to keep my shoulders still as opposed to my head. I've tried both and didn't hear a noticeable difference in the extra 8-10" height.

[yates7592]

Shoulders vs head - I think it really depends on where you are standing. At or near the front maybe not a big deal but further back and it should make noiticeable difference.

[earmonger]

Listening to the sample, seems like the problem is mic placement. It's not that the low end is overpowering--it's that the top end is muffled. You can improve that in post-processing by adjusting EQ--even in a program as basic as a freebie like Audacity. 

But it would be better to get the mics up higher--even if you clip them to the arms of your glasses or something.

You have them on your shoulders...are there people in front of you? 


On the SoundPro site, the CMC-8 are cardioids--the BMC's are binaural (omni) and the CMC are cardioids, unless you bought the optional omni elements.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?item=AT-P12100

Are you careful to stay pretty still so that the mics are always pointed directly at your sound source?
With directional mics, what is picked up off-axis (not within the directional pickup area) can also sound muffled. 

I don't know how stringent the club is, but in most places, when the lights go down, no one is going to notice visible cords. People walk around all day now with earbuds hanging out, or have earplugs on cords. You could clip them to your glasses and loop the cord over your ear and probably not get busted. Try that at home first, though, to make sure you wouldn't be adding noise from the cord to the recording.  Otherwise you might have to let the cords dangle--which still probably wouldn't get noticed.

If you're really worried about stealth, you could also try the Sound Pro TFB-2, which go in your ears so they look like earbuds or earplugs.  But the capsules in them aren't as good as the ones in your CMC-8.

[livingdna]

Hmm yes I see they are listed as being cardiods.
I wonder if they changed the standard elements since I purchased my set. The description I have from my order lists them as: "Compare with Dpa 4060 and 4061 Omnidirectional elements".
Any way to find out for sure what kind of elements I have? I don't see any identification no .on the elements themselves.

Regarding mic placement: I generally stay still facing the stage. For this particular recording I was positioned near the center of the room (venue with capacity of 500) so there were people in front of me. However, I still seem to get a muffled sound on recordings where I am located with clear view.

Think I'll have to try experimenting with ways to get the mics raised to see if that'll up quality.
But sounds like there's also some to gain from post processing so I'll have to read up on that as well. Could you point me in the right direction as for what to adjust in the EQ? My limited skills tells me to just raise the high frequencies in order to reduce "muffled sound" - am I on right track?

[tooldvn]

Regarding mic placement: I generally stay still facing the stage. For this particular recording I was positioned near the center of the room (venue with capacity of 500) so there were people in front of me. However, I still seem to get a muffled sound on recordings where I am located with clear view.

Are your mics concealed with anything? You'll need something sonically transparent if you can't get them out in the open.   I think you said before they are on your shoulders?  Use the wrong kind of fabric and that could be your muffle issue right there.

[livingdna]

Good point about fabric - never given that any thought. I always wear a shirt over the mics. My standard concert uniform is 50% cotton / 50% hemp - any idea if this particular fabric have bad sonic properties?

[acidjack]

Omnis indeed.

I guess this is the hat? http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-HMS-1. For sure worth a try

Yup. That hat definitely does the trick.

[acidjack]

Hmm yes I see they are listed as being cardiods.
I wonder if they changed the standard elements since I purchased my set. The description I have from my order lists them as: "Compare with Dpa 4060 and 4061 Omnidirectional elements".
Any way to find out for sure what kind of elements I have? I don't see any identification no .on the elements themselves.

The pattern should be printed on the side of the capsule. If it's an omni, you'll see a round O. A cardiod should have a heart shape instead.

The CMC-8 series has interchangeable capsules, so you can always get cardiod or other caps as well. Listening to the sample it sounded like omnis to me; the cardiods in those mics are very thin-sounding, not at all like that sample.

[tooldvn]

Good point about fabric - never given that any thought. I always wear a shirt over the mics. My standard concert uniform is 50% cotton / 50% hemp - any idea if this particular fabric have bad sonic properties?

I've found it's not necessarily the material, but the weight of the material.  When holding it up to light, you should be able to somewhat see through it.  I made the mistake of wearing a heavyweight Dickies button down once and my recording was very muffled.   Now I mainly use very thin Gap or similar button downs.   There are other advantages to button downs for  as well. 

[livingdna]

Indeed there is an O printed on them.

Regarding fabric - will for sure try something lighter next time.

[stevetoney]

That 10 inches can make a big difference. 

Think of it this way.  At head level, there's a bunch of heads on the same horizontal plane where your mics are located...but heads occupy less free air space on that horizontal plane than our upper bodies occupy at shoulder level.  Since there's more free air space up at your head, there's a far better chance for unimpeded sound to travel from the speakers to your mics.  Down at shoulder level, there's much more body mass in a room, especially when people are packed in shoulder to shoulder.  There's less chance for sound to get down to your mics without following a more toturous path. 

If the PA speakers are up high and you're standing underneath them, maybe shoulder mounting would be OK.

[bombdiggity]

Good point about fabric - never given that any thought. I always wear a shirt over the mics. My standard concert uniform is 50% cotton / 50% hemp - any idea if this particular fabric have bad sonic properties?

Don't cover the mics, especially not with anything you can't actually see light through.  I suggest an extremely thin shirt (polyster that when you hold up in the light you can see the light through) if you feel you have to use a shirt.  I suspect yours are muffled mostly since a heavyweight shirt is over the mics.  I think CMC-8's can typically make a reasonable recording though probably aren't ideal for the sort of music the sample sounds like. 

I'm often a contrarian around here but stealth I always record with mics clipped to the collar of a dress shirt.  That allows you to angle them slightly upward and point them forward.  Cover them with a lightweight overshirt until the show is about to start then move that off them when recording.  I don't think one can hear much difference between collar and head, though I could see clipping them to the brim of a hat on a crowded standing floor, especially if you're on the shorter side of the crowd (and if you can keep your head absolutely still through a show). 

I've heard far too many hat/head mounted recordings that are a phasey moving mess (even with omnis).  Very few can keep their head still enough to get consistent results that way.  Collar mount allows you some freedom of movement and is easy to keep the mics in one place on point.   Inside hat again introduces the variable of some material covering the mics.  Most hats are heavier material, even mesh ones tend to be a reflective material where the holes aren't rather than transparent.  The SP hat you note above avoids those issues but does require one to get a central position and stare straight ahead without moving your head for however long the show (or at least each song) is. 

If your recordings tend bassy (as the floor at loud club rock shows tends) I'd suggest the SP CMC-25's or whatever the letters are now.  They record dynamic music very well and are under your budget.  For rock they are a good match and I find they are excellent at sort of naturally deemphasizing the mud that creeps into most mixes.  You'll get a lot of presence and pretty natural tone (especially for the money).  DPA's are usually considered the top step in miniature mics (and tend to be priced that way) but I personally don't think their pattern/sound signature is best in the sort of environment it seems you would use them. 

[CTjazzfanatic]

That 10 inches can make a big difference. 

Think of it this way.  At head level, there's a bunch of heads on the same horizontal plane where your mics are located...but heads occupy less free air space on that horizontal plane than our upper bodies occupy at shoulder level.  Since there's more free air space up at your head, there's a far better chance for unimpeded sound to travel from the speakers to your mics.  Down at shoulder level, there's much more body mass in a room, especially when people are packed in shoulder to shoulder.  There's less chance for sound to get down to your mics without following a more toturous path. 

If the PA speakers are up high and you're standing underneath them, maybe shoulder mounting would be OK.

Would the same analysis apply in a seated show, where there is possibly a bit more distance between you and seat in front of you?

[tooldvn]

That 10 inches can make a big difference.  .

All depends on how tall you are to begin with I think. At the top of my shoulders is at or over most concert goers headspace.   I've mounted them in hats before as well and never heard any difference in the recording. For a short taper he might be muddled in body space at the top of his head.  Whats funny is that I don't think I've ever met a taper under 6ft. I'm sure they're out there,  just never met one in 20 yrs of doing this.

[livingdna]

Again thanks for all the awesome advise and recommendations in this thread!

I took some of it to use last night. Upped the gain to 5, wore thinner fabric over the mics, ran with no bass cut-off. I do think it's an improvement, although I assume the different venue and my location also played a role. This was in a big venue, recording was done from seated 1st row with absolutely non-obstructed sight of PA.

So next step: Post processing!

Sample: http://www10.zippyshare.com/v/51118518/file.html

[stevetoney]

Would the same analysis apply in a seated show, where there is possibly a bit more distance between you and seat in front of you?

It's simple really.  My goal is to have an unimpededed line between the sound source and the front of my mics (and that the axis of my mics are fairly properly positioned).

You can probably test this yourself at home if you want.  Play music through your stereo and then move some distance away and record it.  Now stand between the stereo and your mics while you're recording.  How much of an impact do hear?  In the first case the mics are picking up both direct and reverberant sound.  In the latter, they only pick up reverberant sound since your body is blocking out/absorbing direct sound. 

[stevetoney]

Incidently, if you've been a taper long, no doubt you've recorded from a mic stand or taped with people that use a stand.  I'm sure you've had situations where you get home and you're amazed to discover that the sound on your recording is better than the sound you heard at the venue.  The above concept of maximizing direct and minimizing reveberant sound is the reason for this.  Our ears tend to hear everything, but directional mics that are well positioned will maximize the direct sound and minimize the reverberant sound.

[tooldvn]

Again thanks for all the awesome advise and recommendations in this thread!

I took some of it to use last night. Upped the gain to 5, wore thinner fabric over the mics, ran with no bass cut-off. I do think it's an improvement, although I assume the different venue and my location also played a role. This was in a big venue, recording was done from seated 1st row with absolutely non-obstructed sight of PA.

So next step: Post processing!

Sample: http://www10.zippyshare.com/v/51118518/file.html

Nice work - definitely sounds a lot better than  your last.   When you say in sight of the PA, where was it in relation to you?  First row can be hard sometimes if you are not near the left/right stacks.   It's rare that there is a PA in the middle facing the audience.  Usually, those are just individual monitors pointed back towards the musician (mainly on the large rock bands I see, this can be different for other types/genres of music).   Sure you'll get something from the instruments on stage, but unless you have permission to place your mics at the lip or on the stage itself, IMHO it will pale in comparison to what's coming out of the stacks.

Thanks for cluing me into Mogwai being on tour.  May get to the Chicago show later this year!

[CTjazzfanatic]

Would the same analysis apply in a seated show, where there is possibly a bit more distance between you and seat in front of you?

It's simple really.  My goal is to have an unimpededed line between the sound source and the front of my mics (and that the axis of my mics are fairly properly positioned).

You can probably test this yourself at home if you want.  Play music through your stereo and then move some distance away and record it.  Now stand between the stereo and your mics while you're recording.  How much of an impact do hear?  In the first case the mics are picking up both direct and reverberant sound.  In the latter, they only pick up reverberant sound since your body is blocking out/absorbing direct sound.

The goal is certainly simple enough and one I understand fully. Unfortunately, in practice it is not always a simple goal to attain. I do appreciate the plain talk though.

[robeti]

FWIW I've noticed a big difference in sound quality (positive) once I started using a hat.
Don't move your head too much and you'll be fine.

[stevetoney]

The goal is certainly simple enough and one I understand fully. Unfortunately, in practice it is not always a simple goal to attain. I do appreciate the plain talk though.

Yes, when I commented about 'it's simple' I was referring to the concept, not the actual execution.  Getting great stealth recordings is anything but simple.  It's why I almost exclusively tape with a stand now. 

[nulldogmas]

Whats funny is that I don't think I've ever met a taper under 6ft. I'm sure they're out there,  just never met one in 20 yrs of doing this.

(waving hand, jumping up and down to be seen)

[CTjazzfanatic]

Whats funny is that I don't think I've ever met a taper under 6ft. I'm sure they're out there,  just never met one in 20 yrs of doing this.

(waving hand, jumping up and down to be seen)

me too, by a good five inches.

[yousef]

Me too.

You probably haven't seen any of us due to the crowd of giants that homes in on us at every single gig...

[livingdna]

Nice work - definitely sounds a lot better than  your last.   When you say in sight of the PA, where was it in relation to you?  First row can be hard sometimes if you are not near the left/right stacks.   It's rare that there is a PA in the middle facing the audience.  Usually, those are just individual monitors pointed back towards the musician (mainly on the large rock bands I see, this can be different for other types/genres of music).   Sure you'll get something from the instruments on stage, but unless you have permission to place your mics at the lip or on the stage itself, IMHO it will pale in comparison to what's coming out of the stacks.

Thanks for cluing me into Mogwai being on tour.  May get to the Chicago show later this year!

Seated to the left of stage so close to left stack. However, the PA's at the venue were hanging from the ceiling, so I would be kind of below and in front of them rather than at the same level.

You should do ll you can to catch Mogwai on their tour - they put on an amazing show!

[bombdiggity]

That does sound better, though as you felt still somewhat flat.  The recorded level still seems low but that doesn't seem to be the reason the basic sound feels muffled.  I suspect you're running into the limitations of those mics the way you use them. 

I think you'd feel more sizzle with cardioids especially at any sort of distance, but it's odd that this one seems kind of distant with you being so close, though you may have been in "no man's land" where the direct sound was all to the sides or past you. 

Usually if you can consistently hear limitations in your mics that leave you unsatisfied it is time to upgrade... 

[burris]

I'm only 5'8" so I wear 5" platforms.  No, I'm not kidding.  In fact, I've even taken to wearing them on the floor at gen ad Phish shows, which I don't tape, just so I can see better (and get some photos without holding the camera over my head.)  When removed they make a pretty decent stool which helps for the hours of waiting required to get a great spot.  Still, someone tall enough to block my vision always, ALWAYS gets right between me and Trey.

burris
"I-eye can see the band oh-kay-ay"