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Author Topic: 1990s taper finally upgrading gear - a few questions about mics, power, stealth  (Read 5194 times)

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Offline H₂O

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 06:25:47 PM by H₂O »
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Offline Scooter123

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Sorry, a pair of those CMC-1s is not stealthy enough to fit under a hat.  Apparently great for open taping. 
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline yug du nord

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Schoeps CMC1 K (or) L are more or less same size as capsules + collettes but with full size XLR termination.
The CMC1 U picture above is the full body.. then add your own XLR cable.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 10:45:18 PM by yug du nord »
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Offline daspyknows

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It was many moons ago but at the 1989 AIDS Benefit we stealthed with full body KM84's in a hat.  It was a bigger hat. :bigsmile:
For the village idiot, nothing to see here.

Offline Scooter123

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Yeah, there was a Bay Area taper, I forget his name, that used full sized Neumanns under a hat.  He looked ridiculous.  That said, with bag checks, pat downs, and walk through metal detectors, I would not be able to stealth that rig.  Schoeps + NBox + Recorder is a little over the limit, but yeah we've done it.  My favorite is a day after the Manchester bombing where they blocked off three blocks around the Eric Clapton show, and had all three--bag check (which took forever), pat downs, wands, and a walk through metal detector.

Only a fool would try to stealth anything past that top notch security system. 
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline chiefscribe

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Thanks again. This is very helpful. 

Quote
If I had to pick a perfect rig after taping for 40 years I would pick these:

Main Rig. Schoeps + Actives + NBox + Any Recorder

Stealth Rig.  Schoeps + Actives + Baby NBox + Any Recorder

Super Stealth Rig. DPA + Battery Box + Any Recorder These are omnis so you’ll get crowd noise best for stack tapes and small clubs.

Crowd Crazy Rig (Crowd Noise) Same as Main Rig, substitute MK41s

Very helpful advice format, thanks.  By "actives" do you mean the Schoeps active cables?  I admit I am not confident in my grasp of what the actives are doing vs. the NBox in this sequence, and which things render which other things unnecessary.  Like, with phantom power from the recorder, the preamp is not needed anymore?  Or is something still needed to make it work properly?  (My apologies if I am mangling the terms but despite years of lurking on these discussions and decades of tape trading and occasional recording, I still have not completely absorbed all the jargon and abbreviations.)  Or, with CMC1s, that just goes into the recorder, no other power boosting or signal processing needed? 

So if I understand correctly, and I may very well not, in addition to deciding on MK4s vs. MK41s, I need to choose one of these paths for the "moderately stealthy" option

MK4[1] > CMC1 with XLR cable> Tascam DR100mkIII

MK4[1] > Colette cable [WHICH ONE? HOW LONG?] > Nbox / baby Nbox  > [any cable needed?  or does the Nbox come with the cable?] R-05 recorder

Or if I got a Sonosax M2D2, this would render the Nbox/baby Nbox unnecessary - ?  But is more expensive and larger?  And if I understand correctly, Naiant alternatives that would fill this role are no longer being made? 

Am I missing something major in there? 

Since I don't know the dimensions of the nbox it is hard to compare which would be stealthier. 

Since my aim is to have gear ready to use on September 3, I am not sure which Schoeps packages are in stock these days and whether Nboxes can be made that fast but am in touch with Nick so will figure out if my deadline fits his production schedule. 

Re: the CMC1
Quote
The L's disconnect at the edge of the body but this does add the lemo connector sticking out of the body - trade off is you can get custom cables made that are shorter and easier to stealth with
The K's have a set cable length (of what every you order at) but no lemo connector

Custom cables sounds like it could take a while, and I don't know the best places to order them from, and am already a bit overwhelmed with new info, so maybe I should not do anything that requires custom cables - unless it's much easier and faster than it sounds. 




For the "as stealthy as humanly possible" option, I have ordered the DPA 4061s and d:vice/MMA-A.  Wish I could use the R-05 with that instead of an iOS device but I guess I will find a refurbished phone. Tascam DR-100mkIII is also en route, and if I don't use it for concerts it will help me get my DATs transferred w/o tying up my computer. 



Offline H₂O

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Please note the following pictures for Size comparisions of the CMC 1 series


First shot is CMC 1 K  - with standard attached 5m XLR-3 terminated cable


Second shot CMC 6 U, CMC 1 U, CMC 1 L


Third CCM41L, CMC 1 L w/ MK41 capsule
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 11:39:03 AM by H₂O »
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Offline Gutbucket

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typo correction on the last line above- the one on the left is CCM (not CMC)

"Third CCM41, CMC 1 L w/ MK41 capsule"
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline chiefscribe

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Having trouble finding matched stereo sets of MK4s anywhere at the moment.  Single capsules, yes, but not sets, which I'd prefer.  B&H had some listed but when I inquired about their preorder times of 7-14 business days they said the actual estimate is 3 months.  Used from a trusted taper would be great but I don't see any in the yard sale at the moment and I am not going through some eBay seller outside the U.S.. 

If I can't get this setup in my hands by Sept. 3rd the project becomes much less urgent because Labor Day weekend is when the shows I'd like to record to are happening.   

Offline daspyknows

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Personally I would not get hung up on a matched pair.  I have MK4's and MK41's and neither pair is matched but not noticeably different.
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Offline H₂O

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Personally I would not get hung up on a matched pair.  I have MK4's and MK41's and neither pair is matched but not noticeably different.


I agree - I have owned both matched and unmatched pairs of various schoeps caps over the years - including alot of vintage caps (mk2xx series for m221, CMT30, CMMT30 series mics) and only 2 capsules of the same type I have owned that where noticeably different are set of mk24c's which both are almost/over 50 years old now.


As long as the caps are well cared for and manufactured around within the same few years or so I think it will be hard to find caps that are noticeably different


 
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Offline Scooter123

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Thanks again. This is very helpful. 

Quote
If I had to pick a perfect rig after taping for 40 years I would pick these:

Main Rig. Schoeps + Actives + NBox + Any Recorder

Stealth Rig.  Schoeps + Actives + Baby NBox + Any Recorder

Super Stealth Rig. DPA + Battery Box + Any Recorder These are omnis so you’ll get crowd noise best for stack tapes and small clubs.

Crowd Crazy Rig (Crowd Noise) Same as Main Rig, substitute MK41s

Very helpful advice format, thanks.  By "actives" do you mean the Schoeps active cables?  I admit I am not confident in my grasp of what the actives are doing vs. the NBox in this sequence, and which things render which other things unnecessary.  Like, with phantom power from the recorder, the preamp is not needed anymore?  Or is something still needed to make it work properly?  (My apologies if I am mangling the terms but despite years of lurking on these discussions and decades of tape trading and occasional recording, I still have not completely absorbed all the jargon and abbreviations.)  Or, with CMC1s, that just goes into the recorder, no other power boosting or signal processing needed? 

So if I understand correctly, and I may very well not, in addition to deciding on MK4s vs. MK41s, I need to choose one of these paths for the "moderately stealthy" option

MK4[1] > CMC1 with XLR cable> Tascam DR100mkIII

MK4[1] > Colette cable [WHICH ONE? HOW LONG?] > Nbox / baby Nbox  > [any cable needed?  or does the Nbox come with the cable?] R-05 recorder

Or if I got a Sonosax M2D2, this would render the Nbox/baby Nbox unnecessary - ?  But is more expensive and larger?  And if I understand correctly, Naiant alternatives that would fill this role are no longer being made? 

Am I missing something major in there? 

Since I don't know the dimensions of the nbox it is hard to compare which would be stealthier. 

Since my aim is to have gear ready to use on September 3, I am not sure which Schoeps packages are in stock these days and whether Nboxes can be made that fast but am in touch with Nick so will figure out if my deadline fits his production schedule. 

Re: the CMC1
Quote
The L's disconnect at the edge of the body but this does add the lemo connector sticking out of the body - trade off is you can get custom cables made that are shorter and easier to stealth with
The K's have a set cable length (of what every you order at) but no lemo connector

Custom cables sounds like it could take a while, and I don't know the best places to order them from, and am already a bit overwhelmed with new info, so maybe I should not do anything that requires custom cables - unless it's much easier and faster than it sounds. 




For the "as stealthy as humanly possible" option, I have ordered the DPA 4061s and d:vice/MMA-A.  Wish I could use the R-05 with that instead of an iOS device but I guess I will find a refurbished phone. Tascam DR-100mkIII is also en route, and if I don't use it for concerts it will help me get my DATs transferred w/o tying up my computer.

Yeah, there is no "one size fits all" combination, and you need to decide what kind of taping you will do (I am exclusively stealth) and where the concert is going to be (clubs, theaters, big arenas) and within that concert location where you are going to sit (by the stack, floor tickets, often called taper seats, or the cheap seats).  I am a small club and arena taper, so my rigs are meant for those locations, and I try to buy floor seats, ideal for taping.  Nothing wrong with up front by the stacks, called a stack tape.   

Yes, "actives" are custom cables made by Nick that connect the microphone to the NBox or other preamp.  They get a lot of hard use (sweat, yanking) and will need re-cabling every couple years.  The NBox is way smaller than a traditional preamp, like a Sonosax and the connections are smaller.  The Baby NBox is the size of a pack of cigarettes, so it is ridiculously small.
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline MakersMarc

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While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns.   

Gotta' disagree with you there.  Location is everything, and anyone thinking they can make up for suboptimal location simply by purchasing a certain brand of microphone is setting themselves up for disappointment.


Bingo.
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Cobalt/Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520 amp>B&W V202 speakers.

Offline MakersMarc

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Don’t worry too much about purchasing the perfect rig. I’d start by snapping up those matches mk41s Shaggy is selling in the Yard Sale section. You already have a D100, so you’ll want to contact Schoepsnbox (Nick) and ask him to build you a set of 15’ nbob kcy cables. I prefer these to the official Schoeps kcy, those are too stiff  for $tealth, You will also need an nbox, which you will run line into your d100. You may find this size setup to be too bulky, I did. But first give me a call if you like. It is sooo hard to distill all this info, and most of us are reluctant to talk about this in an open forum. Call me before you buy.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 07:08:08 PM by MakersMarc »
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Cobalt/Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520 amp>B&W V202 speakers.

Offline chiefscribe

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I’d start by snapping up those matches mk41s Shaggy is selling in the Yard Sale section.
 

Ah, I figured anything in the Yard Sale that was more than a month or two old was probably not available anymore. Will do a more extensive search.  In my listening tests, I prefer the MK4s, but it was a close call.  Most shows I see have a more chill crowd and not too much noise but I am not very tall so if there is noise it's probably right at my ear level.  If a matched pair of 41s could arrive on time, that might sway me, since thus far I have not found any way to get Schoeps capsules in time for the shows I want to record on Labor Day weekend.

DPA mics have arrived, as has the DR-100mkIII.  The d:vice for the DPAs should be here soon.  I admit I don't even know enough about phantom power etc. to know whether I can use the DPAs with the included microdot>XLR adapter with the DR-100mkIII's phantom power.  If so I'd play around with recording nature sounds to get a sense of what's possible.   Like, if the DPAs require 5-9V of power, and the Tascam DR-100mkIII provides either 12V or 48V of phantom power, does that mean that the DPAs with XLR adapter would work fine (because the recorder provides more than enough power), or would not work at all (because the voltage levels are different), or would require an intermediary device for other reasons (because of balanced/unbalanced signals or whatever)?  I understand the need for power, gain, etc., and that there are compatibility issues between balanced and unbalanced signals (though I don't know exactly what those are), but not how these concepts apply when figuring out which gear would go well with which other gear.  So again, when answering, assume I have the knowledge of a child on some of these matters. 

Some people are suggesting other recorders, but with two already I would need a really good reason to get a 3rd one instead of saving that money to spend on mics and power and gain.  And a foolish-looking hat, sigh. 

Quote
You already have a D100, so you’ll want to contact Schoepsnbox (Nick) and ask him to build you a set of 15’ nbob kcy cables. ... You will also need an nbox, which you will run line into your d100.

Thanks. If I were getting custom cables made and an nbox (or babynbox, not sure what the difference is yet - ?), is there any reason to get ones that could work with the R-05 (stereo mini input)?  I understand the Tascam is a more solid deck and has phantom power, and XLR is sturdier, but if the point is stealth, the R-05 is the size of a deck of cards and extremely light and easy to carry. The Tascam definitely has the look and heft of serious audio equipment.   




 

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