Topic: Analog > Digital

[Flip]

I've been taping with Nak 100 w/cp4 in to a D6 since around 1986.  My little D6 has been a work horse for 18 years.  Only had one problem with it and that was because someone stepped on it.  After all this time my wife is finely going to allowed me to get some new toys.  I'm upgrading my system to sbm-1>d8.  I bought them off the Oade board this weekend.  They are suppose to have less than 30 hours on them.  It also included a RMR-D3k. I have included a pic of the package below.

I know that there are several accessories that I probably need to pick up.  Such as patch cable and probably a upgrade on my mic cables.  I still use the original ones that came with the mic's.  Is there any thing that I will need to plug the Nak's directly in to the SBM-1?  I don't want to go to my first show and find I'm missing something 

I have also been looking through the archives for helpful hints on the differences between taping digital vs. analog.  I know a lot of it is just practice and learning from mistakes.  If any of you could point me in the right direction to avoid any stupid mistakes I would be very grateful. 

After thinking about this a while, one of the things that really bothers me is that I won't have to worry about flipping a tape in the middle of a set any more.  Flipping the tape was always what made it feel like I was taping.  I guess I just have to sit back and smile, smile, smile.

Flip

[dnsacks]

Flip -- welcome to the digital world.

Few thoughts to throw your way. 

1) New stuff you may need --

mics>sbm1 -- Don't the nak mic cables end in a 1/4" phono plug (mono)? -- if so, you should be able to plug 'em directly into the sbm-1's mic input.  Thought though, generally it's better to run mics into the line input on the sony sbm-1, if the mics put out a hot enough signal to get good levels -- the sbm-1 has female rca jacks for its line input, I'm sure radioshack can hook you up with an adaptor for this.  My first thought -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  i.e. get the new setup running with a minimal amount of additional parts and don't upgrade mic cables 'till you need to. 

power -- I see in the picture that the setup comes with an external battery (homemade from c cells?) -- I'd strongly recommend starting off using rechargable nimh aa batteries.  One set in the sbm-1 and one set in the d8 should last an entire show.  That said, I always switched to a fresh set when I switched tapes (BTW, always use 60 meter dds or 2 hour audio dat, don't run 90 meter/3 hour tapes if possible -- imho) and thereby avoided ever having a battery concern, let alone a battery problem. 

Patch cable -- it looks like yours comes with a sony digital patch cable that will accept a digital in but will not pass a digital out.  Some folks, oades included, modify these cables so they can supply both a digital in and a digital out -- you can get around this issue by buying a splitter and running the signal patch>splitter>you (and the other end of the split patch to somebody else) or by putting your deck at the end of the patch chain.

2) differences in taping analog v digital -- one simple difference, if you go above the "zero" on the d8's vu meter, you're clipping, period.  So, work to keep your levels at just below zero.  The sbm-1 has "clip" indicators for each channel, they actually start to briefly/faintly flash at -2 -- ideal level setting occurrs when the sbm1's clip lights flash faintly on occasion (say a few times per song) -- solidly lit clip lights mean clipping, but don't stress it, you need to clip pretty hard/often for it to really mar a tape.

3) final piece of advice, set it all up in front of the stereo and experiment around, better to get everything running a-ok in a controlled environment than to try to figure it out as the opening notes are hitting you.

[hexyjones]

Flip -- welcome to the digital world.

Few thoughts to throw your way. 

1) New stuff you may need --

mics>sbm1 -- Don't the nak mic cables end in a 1/4" phono plug (mono)? -- if so, you should be able to plug 'em directly into the sbm-1's mic input.  Thought though, generally it's better to run mics into the line input on the sony sbm-1, if the mics put out a hot enough signal to get good levels -- the sbm-1 has female rca jacks for its line input, I'm sure radioshack can hook you up with an adaptor for this.  My first thought -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  i.e. get the new setup running with a minimal amount of additional parts and don't upgrade mic cables 'till you need to. 

The NAKs were made to work with unbalanced cables (1/4 phono plugs)...The NAK mixers have 1/4 inputs. Although, there are no issues at all running them with balanced cables if you need to.

I may be wrong...but I wouldn't be running the mics into the line inputs...I consider that to be audio "folklore." The whole "use the line in" thing got started at Core sound by Len Moskowitz...whos mics apprently would overload the D7 preamp...(Specific mic/specific gear) It's a kludge...not "the way." (IMO) - You arent using the D7/8 preamp anyway. Plus you would need some nasty string of adapters...NAKs have a relatively low output - so overload is unlikely. (and you would likely get too low levels going line level...)

[dnsacks]

Actually, its my understanding that the microphone inputs on virtually all sony consumer dat-related products (including the un-modified sbm-1) will create brickwall distortion if you need to run the device at 4 or lower on the "dial" in order to keep from clipping.  Further, espeically with unbalanced mics, the fewer the steps in the signal chain, the better.  Thus, if the sbm-1 can pass acceptable levels going line in, better to skip the extra electronics (and noise/distortion) inherent  in the mic pre.  If it can't (and I suspect that'll be the case with the non-sensitive naks), mic in should be perfect.

[hexyjones]

After thinking about this a while, one of the things that really bothers me is that I won't have to worry about flipping a tape in the middle of a set any more.  Flipping the tape was always what made it feel like I was taping.  I guess I just have to sit back and smile, smile, smile.

Flip

For the price of that D8 you could have bought 3 JB3s!!! And never buy (let alone flip) a tape again....! I bet you would just hate that!!!

And that's not true...you will still have to worry about changing tape...just not as often...DAT has it own world of hassles...

luck to ya!

[hexyjones]

Actually, its my understanding that the microphone inputs on virtually all sony consumer dat-related products (including the un-modified sbm-1) will create brickwall distortion if you need to run the device at 4 or lower on the "dial" in order to keep from clipping.  Further, espeically with unbalanced mics, the fewer the steps in the signal chain, the better.  Thus, if the sbm-1 can pass acceptable levels going line in, better to skip the extra electronics (and noise/distortion) inherent  in the mic pre.  If it can't (and I suspect that'll be the case with the non-sensitive naks), mic in should be perfect.

Yeah....I've heard that too...I just dont see using the line in as legit solution...it's a kludge...a hack...IMO

[dnsacks]

food for thought -- on the sony devices, the knobs serve as attenuators, if the knob's at "10" -- no attenuation is used, anything less than that and your cutting back on the boost applied by the sony circuitry.  Thus, using my methodology, if the mic is "hot" enough to use line in, you're going mic>minimal attenuation > a/d.  Using yours, your going mic > mic pre boost > attenuation back down to what could be handled by line level > a/d. 

[Craig T]

I ran nak cm300's>sbm1>d7 for about a year and it worked fine with no overload problems using the card capsules.  The shotguns brickwalled the sbm1's mic inputs.

[dnsacks]

craig, cp4s are shotgun caps, right?  If so and if the cm100's sensitivity is similar to cm300s, -- Flipp could well be better off running the cm100s into the sbm-1 via line in to avoid brickwalling.

Another option, bring the digital rig to a show and start it running with the mics plugged into the sbm-1's mic pre.  Also bring your trusty d6.  If, in a concert setting, you need to drop levels on the sbm below 4.5 to keep from clipping (meters hitting zero a lot) when using mic in on the sbm-1 (which means you're brickwalling the sbm-1's mic pre and will hear analog distortion on the tapes), run the mics into the d6 as you used to do(using record pause) and feed the d6's line output into the sbm-1's line input.  That will get you the tape and you could then modify the mic cables to terminate in male rca connectors for future shows and run them into the sbm-1 via line in.

[jk labs]

food for thought -- on the sony devices, the knobs serve as attenuators, if the knob's at "10" -- no attenuation is used, anything less than that and your cutting back on the boost applied by the sony circuitry.  Thus, using my methodology, if the mic is "hot" enough to use line in, you're going mic>minimal attenuation > a/d. 

... minimal added noise,
       maximum linearity,
          minimal added distortion,
               less diginoise leaking in 
                   etc etc etc
                       .....
                          ad infinitum     

[jk labs]

craig, cp4s are shotgun caps, right?  If so and if the cm100's sensitivity is similar to cm300s, -- Flipp could well be better off running the cm100s into the sbm-1 via line in to avoid brickwalling.

Another option, bring the digital rig to a show and start it running with the mics plugged into the sbm-1's mic pre.  Also bring your trusty d6.  If, in a concert setting, you need to drop levels on the sbm below 4.5 to keep from clipping (meters hitting zero a lot) when using mic in on the sbm-1 (which means you're brickwalling the sbm-1's mic pre and will hear analog distortion on the tapes), run the mics into the d6 as you used to do(using record pause) and feed the d6's line output into the sbm-1's line input.  That will get you the tape and you could then modify the mic cables to terminate in male rca connectors for future shows and run them into the sbm-1 via line in.

FWIW..  I'm not sure Naks manage to brickwall anything! Most of the Nak capsules have a really low output. 

[admkrk]

craig, cp4s are shotgun caps, right?  If so and if the cm100's sensitivity is similar to cm300s, -- Flipp could well be better off running the cm100s into the sbm-1 via line in to avoid brickwalling.

Another option, bring the digital rig to a show and start it running with the mics plugged into the sbm-1's mic pre.  Also bring your trusty d6.  If, in a concert setting, you need to drop levels on the sbm below 4.5 to keep from clipping (meters hitting zero a lot) when using mic in on the sbm-1 (which means you're brickwalling the sbm-1's mic pre and will hear analog distortion on the tapes), run the mics into the d6 as you used to do(using record pause) and feed the d6's line output into the sbm-1's line input.  That will get you the tape and you could then modify the mic cables to terminate in male rca connectors for future shows and run them into the sbm-1 via line in.

wouldn't that be about the same as running the mx-100?

[hexyjones]

craig, cp4s are shotgun caps, right?  If so and if the cm100's sensitivity is similar to cm300s, -- Flipp could well be better off running the cm100s into the sbm-1 via line in to avoid brickwalling.

Another option, bring the digital rig to a show and start it running with the mics plugged into the sbm-1's mic pre.  Also bring your trusty d6.  If, in a concert setting, you need to drop levels on the sbm below 4.5 to keep from clipping (meters hitting zero a lot) when using mic in on the sbm-1 (which means you're brickwalling the sbm-1's mic pre and will hear analog distortion on the tapes), run the mics into the d6 as you used to do(using record pause) and feed the d6's line output into the sbm-1's line input.  That will get you the tape and you could then modify the mic cables to terminate in male rca connectors for future shows and run them into the sbm-1 via line in.

Isn't the sensitivity part in the capsule?...not the mic body...NAKS have low output in the card and omni caps...I dont have the guns...so I cant say there...

That D-6 mic pre...very noisy....plus I dont think you can put a D6 in rec mode without activating the deck motors...? And why would it be any different than the SBM-1 mic pre...? I forget...does the D6 have an attenuator/pad?

I have an old sony D5 that I used to use as a preamp...it has a -20db pad (which you HAD to use) and it would run in Rec mode without the motors on...If you ran it without the pad - it would clip for sure...

[admkrk]

OK after a quick look, maybe i was thinking of the 550 nak? but isn't it all stil the same? until the dac?

maybe i missed something, it's been a long weekend

             kirk

[John R]

flip, welcome to the board and the never ending opinion filled world of digital.

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, learn to run your rig in the dark, before going to any shows.  get comfortable with knob/button positioning, so you know which direction is plus/minus gain, etc.  use the hold button on the d8.

i love the c cell sled.  carried me through many festivals.

jr