Topic: Difference Beween the m148 and m248?

[grider]

can anyone explain to me the difference between these two Oade Brothers brand preamps?  I am preampless at the moment and exploring some preamp options for my 480's, thanks

[F.O.Bean]

m148 has fixed 20 db of gain, the 248 has variable gain(not sure how much tho) and also a hpf and something else i cant remember

[Tim]

they are nothing alike.

m148 has transfomer based outputs so it's clean but with a nice bottom end warmth, very tube like. it is also fixed at 20db gain.

m248 does not have transformers and it also has a switchable high frequency boost (comes in handy when taping from a distance) and variable gain.

both are powered off of irechargeable nternal batteries which is nice!

I like the m148 with all mics, the m248 with akgs and schoeps especially. honestly I think the m148 is the best preamp in our scene by far, better than the V2... different flavor for sure but I like it better.

[Tim]

as for 480's with oade pres ask Carl Beck, he's run them both with great success. Carl's tapes are some of my all time favorite WSP section tapes...

[grider]

thanks Tim, that's funny, I own Carl's 480's 

[Tim]

definetly talk to Carl, the man has made very nice tapes with both pres. I have very limited experience with the 248, it's a fine piece of gear though... I think with 480's I'd break towards the m148 but I like coloration. The m148 is pretty clean, not quite as clean as a V2 but pretty clean, with just the right amount of lowened coloration to make me happy. My favorite combo thus far is m148->V3.

One other thing is that Doug no longer makes the m248, in fact I don't think he's built them since early 2002, but you can still get an m148 brand new (though there is a several month wait as Doug hand builds them all).

You can't go wrong with either but they are definitely two distinct flavors.

[F.O.Bean]

i agree tim, i havent heard too many 480>248 tapes, but i love the phish ones i made w/ my 480's>tims old 148>my v3 this past summer at deer creek

[Tim]

I need a copy of that tape Beaner... actually I need all of  this summer

[twoodruff]

148 - bass
248 - no bass

[Nick's Picks]

yea, Carl has made some great AKG>Oade tapes.
I've listened to just about all of them, and I like the 483>148>ad500e combo the best.
Punchy, tight as a drum.  Detailed, fat soundstage.  Great recordings.  Some of his 2002 Panic stuff w/that combo  is really nice.
everything else sucks though.
;-)
ha ha ha

[F.O.Bean]

I need a copy of that tape Beaner... actually I need all of  this summer

i never gave you that, shit, PM sent bud

[grider]

sorry to sound like a wook here, which I do, but why would you run a preamp (148) into a preamp/converter unit (V3), isn't that a little redundant?  or is it the case that you can turn off the preamp function of the V3 and just go with its a/d converter function?  in which case an Apogee unit would make more sense (AD1000 or the MiniMe with its preamp function turned off), it seems that a preamp going into another preamp would produce a very altered sound

[marc0789]

sorry to sound like a wook here, which I do, but why would you run a preamp (148) into a preamp/converter unit (V3), isn't that a little redundant?  or is it the case that you can turn off the preamp function of the V3 and just go with its a/d converter function?  in which case an Apogee unit would make more sense (AD1000 or the MiniMe with its preamp function turned off), it seems that a preamp going into another preamp would produce a very altered sound

yep.

however, if you eliminate the adk for being old and not serviceable, the mme for being a piece of shit, all that's really left is the v3 or a modsbm1. can't run a 2k because the gain is fixed.

have to say that all the peeps who said running a mme and a v3 behind a m148 are the same thing were right...you're running a pre behind a pre either way, and actually, I think you can turn the gain down lower in the v3, and get less pre than running the mme line in.

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

[Tim]

I ran it to provide some coloration to the V3, others on here have done the same thing. It's really no different than throwing a V2 or other pre in front of the minime.

[twoodruff]

sorry to sound like a wook here, which I do, but why would you run a preamp (148) into a preamp/converter unit (V3), isn't that a little redundant?  or is it the case that you can turn off the preamp function of the V3 and just go with its a/d converter function?  in which case an Apogee unit would make more sense (AD1000 or the MiniMe with its preamp function turned off), it seems that a preamp going into another preamp would produce a very altered sound

yes you are going pre>pre, but it sounds good to me and I am all that matters in making tapes for me


editing to not sound so selfish

[F.O.Bean]

yeah, its not altered, it just has coloration, i thouight it was overkill too, but it was just right, i had the 148 at a fixed gain of 20 + about 10 db of gain on the v3, perfect touch, alot of ppl really love the 148>v3 sound even tho its a $2,600 combo

[scb]

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

i've always found the mod-sbm to exaggerate the low end and be the opposite of a "clean representation" of a pre or mics

hey marc i don't think we've had an argument in a while.  weird

[Brian Skalinder]

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

Are you smoking crack again, Marc, in addition to all your pain killers?  For all you n00bs who don't know Marc's presence on this board, key words here are "at the moment". 

[muj]

michal's adc murders the grace,mod sbms and the apogee.

 

[scb]

muj, if the 722 comes anytime soon, i'll be showing everyone the greatness of the stereo192

not bringing the big powerbook to shows anytime soon (i don't think).  too big and i don't trust having it at shows so i've just been running 16 bit recently . 

[newblue]

sorry to sound like a wook here, which I do, but why would you run a preamp (148) into a preamp/converter unit (V3), isn't that a little redundant?  or is it the case that you can turn off the preamp function of the V3 and just go with its a/d converter function?  in which case an Apogee unit would make more sense (AD1000 or the MiniMe with its preamp function turned off), it seems that a preamp going into another preamp would produce a very altered sound

yep.

however, if you eliminate the adk for being old and not serviceable, the mme for being a piece of shit, all that's really left is the v3 or a modsbm1. can't run a 2k because the gain is fixed.

have to say that all the peeps who said running a mme and a v3 behind a m148 are the same thing were right...you're running a pre behind a pre either way, and actually, I think you can turn the gain down lower in the v3, and get less pre than running the mme line in.

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

If you run line in to the mme, isn't that just taking the signal that is coming into the box and running it through the adc w/ no pre.  This was my understanding.  Kind of an either/or thing.

[gewwang]

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

i've always found the mod-sbm to exaggerate the low end and be the opposite of a "clean representation" of a pre or mics

hey marc i don't think we've had an argument in a while.  weird

There's 3 different mods, maybe you haven't heard any of the t-mod tapes yet. I had a p-mod modsbm and it definitely wasn't as clean sounding as the d100 a/d. Too bad I didn't find this out until a year and a half after I got it.

[Brian Skalinder]

why would you run a preamp (148) into a preamp/converter unit (V3), isn't that a little redundant?  or is it the case that you can turn off the preamp function of the V3 and just go with its a/d converter function?  in which case an Apogee unit would make more sense (AD1000 or the MiniMe with its preamp function turned off)

Check out Todd R's very informative post on gain stages.  Helps to understand the distinction between "gain stage" and "preamp".  Whether running mic-in or line-in, the AD1K, MMe, V3, etc., each runs through the same gain stage.  And not the same across all boxes, obviously. 

[marc0789]

got a modsbm1 and I think, at the moment, it's a cleaner representation of what the m148 can do than either a v3 or mme.

i've always found the mod-sbm to exaggerate the low end and be the opposite of a "clean representation" of a pre or mics

hey marc i don't think we've had an argument in a while.  weird

not saying the mod sbm1 is clean and transparent at all. I believe it is warm and round. but i do think I'm getting a more true representation of what the m148 sounds like than when I ran the mme. and I think that's because of the mme pre. the bass is WAY cleaner with the mod sbm1, the soundstage tighter, even when taking into account the "rounding off" the modsbm1 does, imho. Some of this, I think, is that these two components are essentially hand made for one another, to some degree.

this is more an indictment of the mme pre screwing up uv22 than a ringing endorsement of the modsbm1. lesser of two evils. I liked my 4022>m148>mme tapes. After 10-12 shows, I like 4022>m148>modsbm1 more. i'm very surprised I think this way, thought I'd be gripping about it.

[muj]

muj, if the 722 comes anytime soon, i'll be showing everyone the greatness of the stereo192

not bringing the big powerbook to shows anytime soon (i don't think).  too big and i don't trust having it at shows so i've just been running 16 bit recently . 

Scott,that's nice.the sd looks like a winner.How does the bass sound through the stereo192,is it tighter than the v3?


edited: for spelling

[Tim]

If you run line in to the mme, isn't that just taking the signal that is coming into the box and running it through the adc w/ no pre.  This was my understanding.  Kind of an either/or thing.

No, no, no. You can't "turn the preamp off"... the box isn't setup like that. The link that Skalinder posted from a Todd R post should tell you what you need to know.

[grider]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

[Brian Skalinder]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

Todd R's post indicates how this works.  Really, give it a read.  But if you don't want to, I'll summarize:  One cannot "inactivate" the gain stage (preamp) on the MMe or AD1000.  One can merely reduce the amount of gain produced at the gain stage's point in the signal path.  Whether running "mic-in", or "line-in" on the AD1000 or MMe (or V3, etc.), one still runs the signal through the same analog gain stage.  It cannot be "deactivated", turned off, by-passed, removed from the signal path, etc.

So, when you used to turn your gain knobs all the way to the left until they clicked into position - you weren't "turning off" the gain stage, you were simply reducing the amount of gain in the gain stage so you could accept a line-level signal without clipping.

[F.O.Bean]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

Todd R's post indicates how this works.  Really, give it a read.  But if you don't want to, I'll summarize:  One cannot "inactivate" the gain stage (preamp) on the MMe or AD1000.  One can merely reduce the amount of gain produced at the gain stage's point in the signal path.  Whether running "mic-in", or "line-in" on the AD1000 or MMe (or V3, etc.), one still runs the signal through the same analog gain stage.  It cannot be "deactivated", turned off, by-passed, removed from the signal path, etc.

So, when you used to turn your gain knobs all the way to the left until they clicked into position - you weren't "turning off" the gain stage, you were simply reducing the amount of gain in the gain stage so you could accept a line-level signal without clipping.

this si what ive always thought, nice post brian

[Brian Skalinder]

this si what ive always thought, nice post brian

Don't thank me, thank Todd R.

[Tim]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

yeah I owned one for awhile too... see Todd R's post though, that's not how it works.

[Kindguy]

I like 483>148 & 481>248 combos. Although maybe the stars were just lined up right the few times I've ran a 248

That said I love my 148.

[twoodruff]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

yeah I owned one for awhile too... see Todd R's post though, that's not how it works.

+T for being tim

[Tim]

hey Songsoffreedom and Tim, its my understanding having owned a MME that if you turn the gain knobs all the way down to the left, at which time they click into a locked position, then the preamp function in inactivated and the unit then operates purely as an ad converter just like the AD1000 does, I could be mistaken about this but I think I am correct, and there sure are a lot of people running a nice preamp in front of their MiniMe's to have its preamp function on as well

yeah I owned one for awhile too... see Todd R's post though, that's not how it works.

+T for being tim

that's funny, I think I'm more likely to get a -T for being Tim

backatcha

[sygdwm]

+t fo 10k posts tim.

[Tim]

ahhhhh.... when did that happen? I didn't even notice. Good lord

[Chuck]

What are the going prices for the m248?

[jpschust]

ive never seen one go for less than 750, i think new they were over 1k?

to add: my asking price on mine is in that neighborhood, and somewhat negotiable   shameless plug.

[Tony B]

What's the going rate on an m148? Never really see them up for sale much....

[marc0789]

What's the going rate on an m148? Never really see them up for sale much....

1300 new, got mine from C. Beck for 1k. best thou I ever spent, well worth the $$.

[jpschust]

What's the going rate on an m148? Never really see them up for sale much....

and you wont, they are the most amazing pre made for our purposes.

[Tony B]

and you wont

Kinda like blues and jazz LPs then. Fair enough. I was just wonderin'....

[Tim]

What's the going rate on an m148? Never really see them up for sale much....

most get passed around amongst friends, from my experience, and don't get put up for public sale too often.

depending on age/condition $900-1100

it takes doug 6+ months to build a new one

[jpschust]

and you wont

Kinda like blues and jazz LPs then. Fair enough. I was just wonderin'....

i've got some great jazz lp's id love to sell   i love them but my collection is shifting.

[Tony B]

Reallllly.......

PM sent....

[nickgregory]

and you wont, they are the most amazing pre made for our purposes.

so I am bound to start a holy war here, but opinions may vary.

not dissing the m148, but 20dbs of gain can be too much for some mics.  I know that MG users for example have to run the pad if your taping FOB....

but as always ymmv

[Tim]

and you wont, they are the most amazing pre made for our purposes.

so I am bound to start a holy war here, but opinions may vary.

not dissing the m148, but 20dbs of gain can be too much for some mics.  I know that MG users for example have to run the pad if your taping FOB....

but as always ymmv

I don't know about that. Have you run one? The MG/Oade Pre combo was fairly common in Panic circles for awhile, I would have thought I would have heard something about that.

[nickgregory]

and you wont, they are the most amazing pre made for our purposes.

so I am bound to start a holy war here, but opinions may vary.

not dissing the m148, but 20dbs of gain can be too much for some mics.  I know that MG users for example have to run the pad if your taping FOB....

but as always ymmv

I don't know about that. Have you run one? The MG/Oade Pre combo was fairly common in Panic circles for awhile, I would have thought I would have heard something about that.

Dave Thoma runs MG200/210s>M148>Mod SBM1 right now and he runs it with the pad, as he had a hell of a time getting the sbm1 above the 2/3 range.

[Tim]

really. I had never heard anyone mention that! Thanks for the info, I'm storing that one away.

FWIW - Doug can and will modify the output to your needs whe he builds it for you. I have no idea if he can or will mod a unit later, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

[goose]

What are the going prices for the m248?

ive never seen one go for less than 750, i think new they were over 1k?

to add: my asking price on mine is in that neighborhood, and somewhat negotiable   shameless plug.

248s sold originally for $900, but have not been made for several (over 5) years.  They typically are sold around 750 as jonny stated.

[Tony B]

Whoa...I know a 2-3 max on the SBM-1 (mod or no) would make me nervous. I'm settling into my V3 as we speak, but it's never to early to start looking on the horizon, and the m148>V3 combo is intriguing, in its own way....

WHY CAN'T I JUST BE HAPPY?  

[Tim]

Goose! Got those tapes, thanks man... they sound great, nice work!

[goose]

Good to hear you got them Tim, thanks.  I need some info from you, look for a PM at some point.

[nickgregory]

really. I had never heard anyone mention that! Thanks for the info, I'm storing that one away.

FWIW - Doug can and will modify the output to your needs whe he builds it for you. I have no idea if he can or will mod a unit later, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

I dont think you would encounter that running from the section...but if you are running way FOB, as Dave does in some cases (and I do when possible),the SPLs can be a bit much.

That being said I also thought the "most amazing pre for our purposes was a bit over the top" but hey, what do I know, I still think the MP2>Mod SBM1 made some smoking tapes...and the V3 is continuing that tradition!  It depends alot of what you look for in your tapes I do believe....and since we all hear things a little differently...

[Tim]

I ran it fob primarily, and the Panic tapes are from the mid 90's when policy was just like DMB's... suprised I never heard of any problems.

[nickgregory]

I ran it fob primarily, and the Panic tapes are from the mid 90's when policy was just like DMB's... suprised I never heard of any problems.

honestly it may be that people ran the sbm1 low.  I have always heard the rumor that if you run it below 3 you will have audible noise issues, but I never proved it in, or heard an actual tape supporting it....so who knows, it may be overkill to run the pad if the sbm1 stories of noise arent true...

[jacallery]

It is the mod that causes the sbm1 to be run that low. He can & will adjust the mod (even old ones)
so that the resistor circuit can be run about 4-5 notches higher on the sbm-1 with high gain mics.
I woupd think that running themic pad to compensate would be worse than the low levels on the sbm1.
I have never heard noise on the sbm1 below 3 FWIW

[nickgregory]

didnt realize it was the mod causing that....thanks for the info!

[marc0789]

and you wont, they are the most amazing pre made for our purposes.

so I am bound to start a holy war here, but opinions may vary.

not dissing the m148, but 20dbs of gain can be too much for some mics.  I know that MG users for example have to run the pad if your taping FOB....

but as always ymmv

I don't know about that. Have you run one? The MG/Oade Pre combo was fairly common in Panic circles for awhile, I would have thought I would have heard something about that.

Dave Thoma runs MG200/210s>M148>Mod SBM1 right now and he runs it with the pad, as he had a hell of a time getting the sbm1 above the 2/3 range.

I can't get the gain on the modsbm1 over 6, unless it's acoustic music, then I have to pretty much open it wide. normal levels for fob loud rock, around 5. but dpas are pretty low output. really, though, as long you don't have to go lower than 4 for the mod, is it a problem?

[gewwang]

I used to run into that problem all the time running mg m210>beyer mv100>sbm1 (with no mod). The highest I could ever run the sbm was at 3.5 and that was typically in small clubs in NYC (Wetlands about 5 times) but also DMB at Giants stack and WSP Central Park section.

[JAH]

so I am bound to start a holy war here, but opinions may vary.

not dissing the m148, but 20dbs of gain can be too much for some mics.  I know that MG users for example have to run the pad if your taping FOB....

but as always ymmv

I don't know about that. Have you run one? The MG/Oade Pre combo was fairly common in Panic circles for awhile, I would have thought I would have heard something about that.

Dave Thoma runs MG200/210s>M148>Mod SBM1 right now and he runs it with the pad, as he had a hell of a time getting the sbm1 above the 2/3 range.

I can't get the gain on the modsbm1 over 6, unless it's acoustic music, then I have to pretty much open it wide. normal levels for fob loud rock, around 5. but dpas are pretty low output. really, though, as long you don't have to go lower than 4 for the mod, is it a problem?

When I run the 148 in front of a Msbm ...say at the 9:30 club...w/ the 140's...I am about 4 to 5 on the knob too.  Nice levels/peaks.

[marc0789]

I can't think of a mic that wouldn't sound good paired with an m148. It's pretty transparent other than a nice warm blanket (pretty sophisticated techie term, huh?) and a little low end emphasis. I've heard peeps say that the Schoeps Cards and Subs are probably too low endy to sound good, but I've loved the Schoeps>m148 tapes I've heard.

the 248...different story. I think brighter mics tend to sound almost unbearably bright...like 481's, 40xx, mbho. but very nice with Schoeps.

[Nick's Picks]

see, now I dont find the 148 to be transparent at all.  I use that term for a V2/3 preamp sound.
I think the 148 is warm, fat, up-front sounding.  Paired w/the right mics...like 480's, which  just suck detail out of the air, it makes for a VERY involving recording.

I"ve heard some amazing mk4>m118 or m148 recordings, so I know that can work out too.  I sometimes think the m118/148 might have been "voiced" with mk4's (?anyone?).  Those older rev schoeps mic bodies certainly sounded a little thin, and emphasiesed in a upper/mid range that really didn't help things. So maybe Doug built those to work with that ailing scheops preamp body sound.
That said, I would bet the 148 sounds best with cmc4/5 bodies vs. the 6 which sounds much warmer and natural to me than the earlier revs.

I can't think of any cmc6/mk4 > m148 tapes that come to mind as great, though i'm sure there are exceptions.  When Carl was running this combo, his tapes often sounded like he 5 wool socks over his little ortf bar.  muddy bottom, a blur of sound.  Very noticable to both of us as he was coming off of the 481/3s that sounded soooo sweet and articulated every instrument.  Those mics went out the door pretty fast in favor for the preamp sound.
In hindsight, Carl should have ditched the 148 and tried the 248, or V2 or something.
I"m not a schoeps fan, but i've come to greatly respect...and recently even go as far as to admire, the cmc6/mk4 sound.  But these are mics that require special componants down stream (pre/ad considerations) to really come alive. 

[jpschust]

wanna hear the 4022>148>v3 sound

[carlbeck]

I guess it's my turn to step into the lions den, thanks to Nick for the heads up. Anyway, my opinion has always been that the 480's were made for Oade boxes or vice versus. My preference while I owned both 148 & 248 or MK4's & 480's was that the 481's>248 was perfect FOB, it has a way of cutting "just enough" of the bass energy generated by the cards, also on the same note the MK4>248 sounds awesome as well.

As far as the 148, that became my true favorite b/c there was just a "magical" sound when run with 483's anywhere in the building. The MK4's never really turned out as well with the 148 in my experience running ORTF. I do agree with Nick & feel that Doug built the 118 to sound nice with his mic of choice at the time, Schoeps. He builds the 148 slightly different when run with Schoeps, we had the discussion when he built mine b/c I was running the 480's & MK4's at that time.

Now, if I could do it all over again, I would buy a 148 to run with the 480's & stop buying gear forever.

PS- as far as DPA's sounding good with Oade boxes??? I will just say DPA's don't sound good with anything

[jpschust]

stop buying gear forever.

funniest phrase of the day.

[carlbeck]

BTW- Thanks to all you guys (except Nick) for the kind words about my past tapes. I take alot of pride in my recordings & coming from the most hardcore group of tapers out there it means a bunch. I think it's important that we continue to push each other to the next level, for us to keep making the best possible tapes, for that I say thank you.

I think when all is said & done my new 24 bit rig will produce just as respectable recordings as my previous ones. Let's get the show on the road again

[MattD]

I will just say DPA's don't sound good with anything

You're right ... it's all the bad rooms we have in this country.

[marc0789]

I guess it's my turn to step into the lions den, thanks to Nick for the heads up. Anyway, my opinion has always been that the 480's were made for Oade boxes or vice versus. My preference while I owned both 148 & 248 or MK4's & 480's was that the 481's>248 was perfect FOB, it has a way of cutting "just enough" of the bass energy generated by the cards, also on the same note the MK4>248 sounds awesome as well.

As far as the 148, that became my true favorite b/c there was just a "magical" sound when run with 483's anywhere in the building. The MK4's never really turned out as well with the 148 in my experience running ORTF. I do agree with Nick & feel that Doug built the 118 to sound nice with his mic of choice at the time, Schoeps. He builds the 148 slightly different when run with Schoeps, we had the discussion when he built mine b/c I was running the 480's & MK4's at that time.

Now, if I could do it all over again, I would buy a 148 to run with the 480's & stop buying gear forever.

PS- as far as DPA's sounding good with Oade boxes??? I will just say DPA's don't sound good with anything

Carl, that's complete crap. 40xx are akg's with midrange. more similar than they are different. and for anyone who thinks this, I can pull out a ton of 4022>eaa>adk or 4022>m148>mme/modsbm1 tapes that will change your mind.

and I think the whole idea that the v2/v3 sound is "what your mics hear" may or may not be true. but it sure isn't what my ears hear. I can say that every single m148 show sounds like what my ears hear. Doug figured out a way to build a preamp that accurately reproduces the soundstage. my opinion is that every mic needs help to sound good. no one has any idea what their mic sounds like, so the statement "the v2 reproduces what the mic hears" is crap. the v3 reproduces stunning high end when run behind the dpas, but that's about it. everything else is mediocre, imo.

and Carl, did you ever run the 4022's without a v3 in the mix?

[carlbeck]

Marc, to be honest, I was hoping to ruffle your feathers but what I ask you is what type of playback system are you listening on? I keep bringing this up because it is crucial to determine how "good" something sounds. I say this from experience, I sold some gear I shouldn't have b/c I thought my system was "good enough" & the gear sounded like crap. When I go back now & listen on my system I am shocked to hear how good things REALLY sounded.

I am "lucky" enough at this point to have "enough" money invested in my system but that is only b/c I started to realize how important playback was & got off the new gear every month merry-go-round & started spending my money on my playback. Nick & I have proven this time & time again at our houses with various stereo gear that playback is as important as what you use to capture the sound.

I always offer this up to anyone with a set of ears, if you want to hear how good your rig sounds please come to my house for a day & we will LISTEN to your rig. It may save you from selling the wrong thing for the next big thing.

As far as the DPA's without the V3 I never tried them & I will say the discs you have sent me are the best DPA recordings I have ever heard. Unfortunately it still doesn't change my mind about the DPA's. For me, in my rig, where I tape, for what I tape, DPA's made the worst possible tapes.

[jpschust]

Marc, to be honest, I was hoping to ruffle your feathers but what I ask you is what type of playback system are you listening on? I keep bringing this up because it is crucial to determine how "good" something sounds. I say this from experience, I sold some gear I shouldn't have b/c I thought my system was "good enough" & the gear sounded like crap. When I go back now & listen on my system I am shocked to hear how good things REALLY sounded.

I am "lucky" enough at this point to have "enough" money invested in my system but that is only b/c I started to realize how important playback was & got off the new gear every month merry-go-round & started spending my money on my playback. Nick & I have proven this time & time again at our houses with various stereo gear that playback is as important as what you use to capture the sound.

I always offer this up to anyone with a set of ears, if you want to hear how good your rig sounds please come to my house for a day & we will LISTEN to your rig. It may save you from selling the wrong thing for the next big thing.

As far as the DPA's without the V3 I never tried them & I will say the discs you have sent me are the best DPA recordings I have ever heard. Unfortunately it still doesn't change my mind about the DPA's. For me, in my rig, where I tape, for what I tape, DPA's made the worst possible tapes.

carl, first your house then mine

i LOVE my 4022 tapes on my system.

[marc0789]

Marc, to be honest, I was hoping to ruffle your feathers but what I ask you is what type of playback system are you listening on? I keep bringing this up because it is crucial to determine how "good" something sounds. I say this from experience, I sold some gear I shouldn't have b/c I thought my system was "good enough" & the gear sounded like crap. When I go back now & listen on my system I am shocked to hear how good things REALLY sounded.

I am "lucky" enough at this point to have "enough" money invested in my system but that is only b/c I started to realize how important playback was & got off the new gear every month merry-go-round & started spending my money on my playback. Nick & I have proven this time & time again at our houses with various stereo gear that playback is as important as what you use to capture the sound.

I always offer this up to anyone with a set of ears, if you want to hear how good your rig sounds please come to my house for a day & we will LISTEN to your rig. It may save you from selling the wrong thing for the next big thing.

As far as the DPA's without the V3 I never tried them & I will say the discs you have sent me are the best DPA recordings I have ever heard. Unfortunately it still doesn't change my mind about the DPA's. For me, in my rig, where I tape, for what I tape, DPA's made the worst possible tapes.

Carl, admittedly not a great playback system...nice vintage yamaha receiver and some pinnacle speakers, not great, not bad....and if you think the bunch I sent you was good, I have more standouts I'd be happy to send, particularly 11/16 Mule in the ass Barrymore, 10/27 DBT in the nearly as assy First Avenue, 11/12 and 11/13 Hot Tuna at the sublime Cedar Cultural Center, and a bunch of others. I maintain that DPA's sound like shit for the most part other than in a primo venue and location, unless run into a transformer pre like an m148, eaa or mp-2. I still haven't heard a bad panic tape from brothers/kinder/smiley from their 4021>eaa>1k days.  I think the same thing of akg's, some of the very worst tapes I've ever heard are 481>v2 tapes. And some of the very best are 481(3)(2)>m148>1k or hhb, just some of my favorite tapes.

[carlbeck]

I really do wish some of us lived closer together, it would be great if we could alternate houses/systems on a regular basis just to get a chance to listen each others recordings. How many times have you huddled around a boombox in a hotel after the show determining which sources sound "best"? I know I have done it. Then you get home & listen on a real stereo & you are shocked at the difference.

Marc, your right, there are good DPA tapes out there but my point is just what I said for me, they are crap, at least I have owned everything & used them enough to say it without a doubt in my mind.

[grider]

I +T'd you Carl just for sharing your knowledge with us, and it is substantial, and as a 480's owner I appreciate your insight, thanks

[marc0789]

wanna hear the 4022>148>v3 sound

no, my ears can't take that kind of beating.

[jpschust]

wanna hear the 4022>148>v3 sound

no, my ears can't take that kind of beating.

all those pharmies must have gone to your head.

[Tim]

I ran mk41/m148/modsbm1 from the section at the Fillmore for phil last November, spectacular tapes... the 148 was perfect for that situation: Phil's mix is thin (thanks "Wiz"), combined with the distance of the section and the natural bass rolloff of the 41's