Topic: VR4JRs?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Any one running VR4JRs?

[MattD]

I thought Nick was at one point.

[scervin]

I'm pretty sure Carl Beck has them, but he has been MIA.  Ask Nick about them.  A friend of mine has heard them in his system (Rowland Amp, Dodson DAC, UDP-1, not sure on preamp) be thought they were the best speakers he has had through his system.  He went back to Thiel as he could not afford the VR4jr's right now, but does plan to get the VR4SR by years end.

sc.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I sent Carl a PM but have not heard back from him.  He's been inactive for a couple of weeks.

I know several people have auditioned these but I was hoping to get some info from someone who has lived with them for a few months through the break-in process and who might have tried different wiring/amping configurations. 

These are sick speakers.  Right out of the crate at they sound good. 

[Nick's Picks]

I've not owned them, but I've listened to Carls plenty of times.  Even w/my gear.
they are the best speaker i've heard.
period.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Cool, I'm just looking for some answers about breakin period experiences that maybe would not be known on the basis of an audition. 


Did you try different wiring options? 

I started out with the speakers connected on the bottom post and the straps in place because the spades are small for the posts.  But last night I figured out how to get the cables mounted on the monitor unit.  This morning I'm hearing better imaging and the highs are better. 

If you played with biwiring, I'd be interested to hear your results.  I have two pairs of wire, with one pair feeding the sub.  Today I'm going to take the sub out and try biwiring the JRs. 

What about bi amping?  The manual suggests that there is no need for a crossover ahead of the amps.  Did you guys try this?

I guess in my case I'm probably not going to worry about bi amping as long as I have the sub in place.  But if the bi-wiring experiment shows that I can get the bass I like out of these, I may sell the sub (something I will probably regret) and replace the CJ SS amp I should have never sold for a bi amping arrangement.

Did you run a sub with a HP filter on the mains during break in?  If so, did that affect how long it took to break in the bass drivers?  I guess I'm concerned about uneven break-in between the monitor and bass cabinets.

Did you play with different placement parameters?  I'm finding that these do not respond well to toe in with my current configuration. (the configuration has changed radically since I posted pictures.)  When I toe in more than 3-4 degrees, the sound stage collapses to within the speaker positions.

Did you find that correct placement changed with break-in?  If so, was it a little or alot?  If I'm currently playing around with placement given the constraints I have.  If I can expect a lot of change, I'm not going to be as concerned with it if I have to dial it in again after break-in.

Did you get different spikes for the bass cabinet?  I'm not confident in the spikes sent by VSR because one already bent when we were packing the speakers. 

What associated gear and wires were you running?  Did you try different speaker wires and did the JRs react to that?

Did you try different amounts of shot in the bass cabinets?   I have 50lbs in there now - would less or more shot make a difference?  Maybe less is better?

What general changes did you find over the breakin period?

I know it's a lot of questions.  I'm just trying to shave some time off my learning curve. 

These speakers are awesome.  I'm hearing really nice details in the highs.  Better that the Thiels but to be fair they are 18years old.   Also I was intimate with the Thiels in my room.  The JRs aren't dialed in and don't completely disappear yet but I'll get there.  The soundstage is big and warm.  When I get the spikes in, I think they will tighten up a bit.


michael

[Nick's Picks]

lots of questions...

Break in:  Carls VR4jrs were the first on the block.  They were serial number 00000, or might not have even had a number yet...and were the test units that were being carried around the country last year before these went onsale to the general public.
That said, they came with lead shot in them all ready (I dont know how much) and were all ready broken in.
However, I've spoken in depth about them w/my VSA man and he says they need a minimum of 200 hours before the mid/tweater really breaks in.  They break in last as they dont move as much as a whoofer.  Whoofers travel some distance, and they tend to loosen up quicker than a smaller cone does.
You should notice that these things start to really sing nice after 100 hours or so.  Crystal mid range, yet very warm sounding.  Overall, the speakers will get warmer and more detailed as they break in.

BASS  I can't believe anyone would feel the need to run a sub with these things.  Granted, Carls room is not huge, but it will pressurize the area with SERIOUS athority.  Adding a sub to these finly tuned speakers would just ruin the sound, imo.  They certainly dont need it.  I dont know what th exact number is, but they must be rated to do down to at least 20-25hZ on their own, and pack PLENTY of punch.  I love powerful bass, and I love sub whoofers...when speakers cant reproduce that deep bass on their own.  VSA speakers, from the VR2 up, do not require additional bass unless you are an HT junkie and need something to plug that extra channel into.

WIRING  VSA says that the way to wire up all of their (or any) modular speaker design is to send the cable to the mid/tweeter top monitor and then jump down from there.
With the 4jrs, and their beefy stock connection between the the two cabinets, I probably wouldnt bi-wire them off the bat.  Bi-amping them w/some tubes up top and SS on the bottom would probably sound great, but might be a PITA trying to match componants in terms of power output.  I'd put an email into chriss at VSA with these questions.  He will give you the irrifutable correct answers.  His email addie is on their www page.

PLACEMENT Being a dipole, they like lots of breating room.  Like you, I have found that the VSA speakers i've had do not require much in the way of toe-in.  IN fact, I think only an inch, or two at best will give you the perfect results.  They work VERY well just pointing straight ahead.  I'd start there.  Dial it in with some white noise until you get that nice, tight ball of static that sits between them.  You get that, and then you can feel positive that everything is dialed in.  Stereophile test CD number II is perfect for dialing in speakers, and its what I always use.  You can also order that online (www.stereophile.com).

SPIKES  I dont know if Carl spikes his or not.  That is not manditory w/a heavy ass speaker like these.  If you've got thick carpet, then the factory spikes will pierce it nicely and they will not budge.  Aftermarket spikes are always an option.  I dont spike my VR4s at all, and they sit on super thick carpet.  But when your speaker is approaching 150lbs, I dont think its a big deal to spike it.

SPEAKER CABLES  I think Carl has only used what he has.  MIT term 2's I believe.  Maybe some DH LAB cables as well, I'm not sure.  I'd just try to find something transparent as possible.

UPSTREAM COMPONANTS  Carl runs a BAT vk60 tube amp for his.  They drive them just fine.  We also hooked up a DNA-1 (w/a lot moe power) to them and they fucking blasted the wind out of our chests.  awesome!!!
FWIW, VSA voices their speaker with digital amps.  Personaly, I think they will excell with any good gear behind them.

[scervin]

When I was asing around about these speakers I had a question about bi-wiring these as opposed to using the datalink.  I was told not to use the data link and connecting a god cable from the monitor to the bass module was much better.

sc.

[ducati]

lots of questions...
SPIKES  I dont know if Carl spikes his or not.  That is not manditory w/a heavy ass speaker like these.  If you've got thick carpet, then the factory spikes will pierce it nicely and they will not budge.  Aftermarket spikes are always an option.  I dont spike my VR4s at all, and they sit on super thick carpet.  But when your speaker is approaching 150lbs, I dont think its a big deal to spike it.

Every speaker I've tried, regardless of weight, sounds better spiked.  Especially if they're sitting on carpet.  It really tightens up the bass, and in some cases, further refines the midrange.  You might try it.

[carlbeck]

Hello everyone, aparantly I needed Nick to raise me from the dead I have been busy lately & starting a new job tomorrow so I can't get into much detail but let me say Nick is right on about my Jr's, he has spent enough time over my house to know them as well as his own VR4's.

At the moment they are not spiked, they will/do sound better when spiked but right now my room is not set up for music (long story but the wife wins) What I will say about my experiences with the Jr's VS. the other speakers I have had in this room is that they image well regardless of position. It sounds silly but trust me, I just threw them up into the spot they are at right now & they beat out the Tylers, Vandy's & Meadlowlarks that preceeded them. As far as subs go, I had one in the past & wouldn't add one again, I was never able to get to the point with it where I did not know it was there. If you feel the need for a sub I would run two smaller ones so as to equal out the pressure in the room. As Nick pointed out in his previous post there really is no need for a sub with the jr's they go pretty low.

My serial numbers are in fact 04001, not 00000  They were broken in & also "tweaked" slightly acording to VSA when I spoke with them regarding my speakers, so I can not say how much lead is in them. I have not honestly played with speaker wires since I bought them but they are Bi-Wired with shotgun MIT Terminator 2's. I know this to be the weak link in my system but to be honest, I am either over the cabling treadmill or just the fact that I now enjoy my stereo. I feel we all need to experiment with our sytems to get the most out of them but once you get to a certain level you need to just sit back & enjoy

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Nick, thanks for you input. 

OK, I've played with these some more.

Because I have only two pair of wires I could not bi-wire and use the sub at the same time.  The cables I have are the MIT MH750S2 for the main cabinets and TaraLabs TimeSpace phase II for the run to the sub.  For the bi-wiring test I used the MIT to the monitors and the Tara to the bass cabinets.

First impression:  Holy shit!

Second impression:  Holy shit!

There is a huge difference in sound with the speakers bi-wired.  The height of the image is about 18 inches higher at my listening position.  The width of the soundstage outside the speaker is about 8" wider on each side.  I noticed an improvement when I moved the single wire connection from the bass cabinet to the monitor, but that change was about 1/3 of the improvement that I got from bi-wiring.  Not only did the stage get bigger but there is more clarity and air around the instruments. 

With regard to the bass:  with the sub disconnected, a lot of bass weight was lost.  The JRs definitely produce very low bass.  I got down on the floor with my head between and just ahead of the cabinets and I could hear very deep bass, but the JRs are not pushing that out to my listening position. 

Sheryl Crow's Redemption Day has a very deep bass introduction.  ( I use the entire CD to evaluate changes since I know it so well and I've been able to get incredible images out of it).  With the sub installed I can feel that bass.  With the sub out, it's there but not as full and weighty.  And just to keep this in perspective, I am not into boy racer bowel moving bass.  One thing I did learn is that the bass intro of that track is stereo.  I never knew that.  The old thiels do not have the depth so I never heard the bass on those and I just have the one sub right now.  With my head near the cabinets, I could clearly hear that the intro is stereo. 

Another interesting thing in that Crow track: right after the bass intro there is some percussion instrument that plays rhythm before the guitar starts.  When I had my head between the cabinets, that rhythm sounded like it was 2 feet above my head.  I could not close my eyes and point to the monitors as the sound source.  Pretty cool, and yes I was sober during the tests ;-)

So at this point, I am definitely going to get shotgun bi-wires for the JRs and I am going to keep the sub.

Nick, you should try spiking your speakers.  I don't think that you will hear a big difference at lower volumes, but you should get a tighter image when you are really driving them.  Even very heavy equipment will sway slightly on carpet.   I know that the thiels improved with the spikes in place. 



I put this at the end because the post is already long but I want to discuss the subwoofer/bass response more.  

My room has an amazing suck out below about 180hz.  There is no way to fix the problem without a level of accoustic treatment that would bring upon me a reign of grief that I cannot describe in a family forum.  I can over power the suck-out to a point but when the system is playing at a level that allows conversation with guests, the bass is anemic unless the sub is in play.

I understand your argument against subs.  I can't count the number of poorly integrated subs I've heard in pro shops and I was reluctant to try one.  But a well integrated sub can be a miraculous thing in situations like mine.  I've spent enough time working with placement and tuning that I have the vandy seamlessly integrated.  I built custom filters at just the right rolloff for my room.  I can listen to music at a level that allows conversation and still get bass presence.  I have the VRs playing softly now, and the bass line is very hard to follow.  

After this test and the discovery that the sheryl crow CD has stereo bass tracks, I'll probably look for a matching 2wq so I can try stereo subs.

Edit:
I'm now listening to the 2-20 mule c'ville 722 recording.  The JRs will go really low.  But given that the 722 seems to accentuate bass and this is mule, I'm just not getting what I want in the lower end if played at moderate volumes.  We'll see if this changes over the next couple of months but I think the sub is staying in for now.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Hey Carl,

thanks for checking in.  I was previewing when I saw your post and didn't feel like integrating any editing.

I recognize the chasm that can exist between enjoyment and tinkering with gear.  I'm just interested tinkering now because this is new gear and I am at the point where this is as good as it will get until I can buy a better room.


If you have not tried to biwire your JRs, you really should try it.  If you are interested, I can loan you my 750s when I get bi-wire replacements.  The 750s are an improvement over the T2s and I think if you run the 750s to the monitors you'll be stunned.



Congratulations on your new job. 

[ducati]

How large is the suckout band?  How large is your room, and where are the speakers placed in relation to the walls?  If you have a suckout at 180hz, there's others...  Where are they?

I don't like subs, ever.   No matter how they're done, they call attention to themselves here and there.  I just can't get over that.  But then again I listen to lots of Jazz, with some classical, rock, and jambands mixed in...  Subs tend to call attention to themselves with the music I listen to.

But there's one notable exception--Thiel's new sub with the integrator box.  I didn't even know they were on, but for the fact my heart was being massaged.  If you want an integrator box I could get you one...  but they pricey, waaaay too pricey.

BTW--I'm running MIT MH750 Shotgun biwire cables...  They're excellent.  I ran MH750S3 Biwire before that, and shotgun Kimber 4TC before that.  I am a big biwire fan...  I'm not sure why it works so well, but my experience has been biwiring improves the sound very noticeably, especially in the areas of soundstaging and midrange clarity (in my rig).

[scervin]

What are your room dimensions.  Could model it up and find were the theoretical peaks should fall.  SOunds like some room treatment is needed as well as playing around with the placement.  Usually the really bad modes fall in the 60-80Hz band.  How were you testing this?  Can you post your curve?

sc.

[rreidiii]

I thought I'd put a budget of $1500 on speakers since my wife would probably not mind too much and she doesn't. Now I'm really interested in these VR4jrs everyone is talking about, I did find out that they are about 4K new and of course I though for sure they are probably built somewhere on the east coast. So after doing a little reading and investigating I found out that these things are made directly accross the street from The college I teach at one a week. Which also happens to be no more than 10 minutes from my house. Needless to say I am going to stop buy there later this week to see if I can tour the factory. Perhaps see if there is a possibility of picking up a par of factory seconds, blems, or whatever. If you all are interested I will keep you posted on what happens.