Author Topic: VR4JRs? (Read 11647 times)

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **on:** February 27, 2005, 11:12:33 PM »

Any one running VR4JRs?

MattD · « **Reply #1 on:** February 28, 2005, 08:42:58 AM »

I thought Nick was at one point.

scervin · « **Reply #2 on:** February 28, 2005, 09:50:36 AM »

I'm pretty sure Carl Beck has them, but he has been MIA. Ask Nick about them. A friend of mine has heard them in his system (Rowland Amp, Dodson DAC, UDP-1, not sure on preamp) be thought they were the best speakers he has had through his system. He went back to Thiel as he could not afford the VR4jr's right now, but does plan to get the VR4SR by years end.

sc.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2005, 10:57:47 AM »

I sent Carl a PM but have not heard back from him. He's been inactive for a couple of weeks.

I know several people have auditioned these but I was hoping to get some info from someone who has lived with them for a few months through the break-in process and who might have tried different wiring/amping configurations.

These are sick speakers. Right out of the crate at they sound good.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2005, 07:22:28 AM »

I've not owned them, but I've listened to Carls plenty of times. Even w/my gear.
they are the best speaker i've heard.
period.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2005, 12:45:33 PM »

Cool, I'm just looking for some answers about breakin period experiences that maybe would not be known on the basis of an audition.

Did you try different wiring options?

I started out with the speakers connected on the bottom post and the straps in place because the spades are small for the posts. But last night I figured out how to get the cables mounted on the monitor unit. This morning I'm hearing better imaging and the highs are better.

If you played with biwiring, I'd be interested to hear your results. I have two pairs of wire, with one pair feeding the sub. Today I'm going to take the sub out and try biwiring the JRs.

What about bi amping? The manual suggests that there is no need for a crossover ahead of the amps. Did you guys try this?

I guess in my case I'm probably not going to worry about bi amping as long as I have the sub in place. But if the bi-wiring experiment shows that I can get the bass I like out of these, I may sell the sub (something I will probably regret) and replace the CJ SS amp I should have never sold for a bi amping arrangement.

Did you run a sub with a HP filter on the mains during break in? If so, did that affect how long it took to break in the bass drivers? I guess I'm concerned about uneven break-in between the monitor and bass cabinets.

Did you play with different placement parameters? I'm finding that these do not respond well to toe in with my current configuration. (the configuration has changed radically since I posted pictures.) When I toe in more than 3-4 degrees, the sound stage collapses to within the speaker positions.

Did you find that correct placement changed with break-in? If so, was it a little or alot? If I'm currently playing around with placement given the constraints I have. If I can expect a lot of change, I'm not going to be as concerned with it if I have to dial it in again after break-in.

Did you get different spikes for the bass cabinet? I'm not confident in the spikes sent by VSR because one already bent when we were packing the speakers.

What associated gear and wires were you running? Did you try different speaker wires and did the JRs react to that?

Did you try different amounts of shot in the bass cabinets? I have 50lbs in there now - would less or more shot make a difference? Maybe less is better?

What general changes did you find over the breakin period?

I know it's a lot of questions. I'm just trying to shave some time off my learning curve.

These speakers are awesome. I'm hearing really nice details in the highs. Better that the Thiels but to be fair they are 18years old. Also I was intimate with the Thiels in my room. The JRs aren't dialed in and don't completely disappear yet but I'll get there. The soundstage is big and warm. When I get the spikes in, I think they will tighten up a bit.

michael

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:22:58 AM »

lots of questions...

Break in: Carls VR4jrs were the first on the block. They were serial number 00000, or might not have even had a number yet...and were the test units that were being carried around the country last year before these went onsale to the general public.
That said, they came with lead shot in them all ready (I dont know how much) and were all ready broken in.
However, I've spoken in depth about them w/my VSA man and he says they need a minimum of 200 hours before the mid/tweater really breaks in. They break in last as they dont move as much as a whoofer. Whoofers travel some distance, and they tend to loosen up quicker than a smaller cone does.
You should notice that these things start to really sing nice after 100 hours or so. Crystal mid range, yet very warm sounding. Overall, the speakers will get warmer and more detailed as they break in.

BASS I can't believe anyone would feel the need to run a sub with these things. Granted, Carls room is not huge, but it will pressurize the area with SERIOUS athority. Adding a sub to these finly tuned speakers would just ruin the sound, imo. They certainly dont need it. I dont know what th exact number is, but they must be rated to do down to at least 20-25hZ on their own, and pack PLENTY of punch. I love powerful bass, and I love sub whoofers...when speakers cant reproduce that deep bass on their own. VSA speakers, from the VR2 up, do not require additional bass unless you are an HT junkie and need something to plug that extra channel into.

WIRING VSA says that the way to wire up all of their (or any) modular speaker design is to send the cable to the mid/tweeter top monitor and then jump down from there.
With the 4jrs, and their beefy stock connection between the the two cabinets, I probably wouldnt bi-wire them off the bat. Bi-amping them w/some tubes up top and SS on the bottom would probably sound great, but might be a PITA trying to match componants in terms of power output. I'd put an email into chriss at VSA with these questions. He will give you the irrifutable correct answers. His email addie is on their www page.

PLACEMENT Being a dipole, they like lots of breating room. Like you, I have found that the VSA speakers i've had do not require much in the way of toe-in. IN fact, I think only an inch, or two at best will give you the perfect results. They work VERY well just pointing straight ahead. I'd start there. Dial it in with some white noise until you get that nice, tight ball of static that sits between them. You get that, and then you can feel positive that everything is dialed in. Stereophile test CD number II is perfect for dialing in speakers, and its what I always use. You can also order that online (www.stereophile.com).

SPIKES I dont know if Carl spikes his or not. That is not manditory w/a heavy ass speaker like these. If you've got thick carpet, then the factory spikes will pierce it nicely and they will not budge. Aftermarket spikes are always an option. I dont spike my VR4s at all, and they sit on super thick carpet. But when your speaker is approaching 150lbs, I dont think its a big deal to spike it.

SPEAKER CABLES I think Carl has only used what he has. MIT term 2's I believe. Maybe some DH LAB cables as well, I'm not sure. I'd just try to find something transparent as possible.

UPSTREAM COMPONANTS Carl runs a BAT vk60 tube amp for his. They drive them just fine. We also hooked up a DNA-1 (w/a lot moe power) to them and they fucking blasted the wind out of our chests. awesome!!!
FWIW, VSA voices their speaker with digital amps. Personaly, I think they will excell with any good gear behind them.

scervin · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2005, 10:02:49 AM »

When I was asing around about these speakers I had a question about bi-wiring these as opposed to using the datalink. I was told not to use the data link and connecting a god cable from the monitor to the bass module was much better.

sc.

ducati · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2005, 10:10:54 AM »

Quote from: Nick's Picks on March 06, 2005, 07:22:58 AM

lots of questions...
SPIKES I dont know if Carl spikes his or not. That is not manditory w/a heavy ass speaker like these. If you've got thick carpet, then the factory spikes will pierce it nicely and they will not budge. Aftermarket spikes are always an option. I dont spike my VR4s at all, and they sit on super thick carpet. But when your speaker is approaching 150lbs, I dont think its a big deal to spike it.

Every speaker I've tried, regardless of weight, sounds better spiked. Especially if they're sitting on carpet. It really tightens up the bass, and in some cases, further refines the midrange. You might try it.

carlbeck · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2005, 01:08:44 PM »

Hello everyone, aparantly I needed Nick to raise me from the dead

I have been busy lately & starting a new job tomorrow so I can't get into much detail but let me say Nick is right on about my Jr's, he has spent enough time over my house to know them as well as his own VR4's.

At the moment they are not spiked, they will/do sound better when spiked but right now my room is not set up for music (long story but the wife wins) What I will say about my experiences with the Jr's VS. the other speakers I have had in this room is that they image well regardless of position. It sounds silly but trust me, I just threw them up into the spot they are at right now & they beat out the Tylers, Vandy's & Meadlowlarks that preceeded them. As far as subs go, I had one in the past & wouldn't add one again, I was never able to get to the point with it where I did not know it was there. If you feel the need for a sub I would run two smaller ones so as to equal out the pressure in the room. As Nick pointed out in his previous post there really is no need for a sub with the jr's they go pretty low.

My serial numbers are in fact 04001, not 00000

They were broken in & also "tweaked" slightly acording to VSA when I spoke with them regarding my speakers, so I can not say how much lead is in them. I have not honestly played with speaker wires since I bought them but they are Bi-Wired with shotgun MIT Terminator 2's. I know this to be the weak link in my system but to be honest, I am either over the cabling treadmill or just the fact that I now enjoy my stereo. I feel we all need to experiment with our sytems to get the most out of them but once you get to a certain level you need to just sit back & enjoy

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2005, 01:31:20 PM »

Nick, thanks for you input.

OK, I've played with these some more.

Because I have only two pair of wires I could not bi-wire and use the sub at the same time. The cables I have are the MIT MH750S2 for the main cabinets and TaraLabs TimeSpace phase II for the run to the sub. For the bi-wiring test I used the MIT to the monitors and the Tara to the bass cabinets.

First impression: Holy shit!

Second impression: Holy shit!

There is a huge difference in sound with the speakers bi-wired. The height of the image is about 18 inches higher at my listening position. The width of the soundstage outside the speaker is about 8" wider on each side. I noticed an improvement when I moved the single wire connection from the bass cabinet to the monitor, but that change was about 1/3 of the improvement that I got from bi-wiring. Not only did the stage get bigger but there is more clarity and air around the instruments.

With regard to the bass: with the sub disconnected, a lot of bass weight was lost. The JRs definitely produce very low bass. I got down on the floor with my head between and just ahead of the cabinets and I could hear very deep bass, but the JRs are not pushing that out to my listening position.

Sheryl Crow's Redemption Day has a very deep bass introduction. ( I use the entire CD to evaluate changes since I know it so well and I've been able to get incredible images out of it). With the sub installed I can feel that bass. With the sub out, it's there but not as full and weighty. And just to keep this in perspective, I am not into boy racer bowel moving bass. One thing I did learn is that the bass intro of that track is stereo. I never knew that. The old thiels do not have the depth so I never heard the bass on those and I just have the one sub right now. With my head near the cabinets, I could clearly hear that the intro is stereo.

Another interesting thing in that Crow track: right after the bass intro there is some percussion instrument that plays rhythm before the guitar starts. When I had my head between the cabinets, that rhythm sounded like it was 2 feet above my head. I could not close my eyes and point to the monitors as the sound source. Pretty cool, and yes I was sober during the tests ;-)

So at this point, I am definitely going to get shotgun bi-wires for the JRs and I am going to keep the sub.

Nick, you should try spiking your speakers. I don't think that you will hear a big difference at lower volumes, but you should get a tighter image when you are really driving them. Even very heavy equipment will sway slightly on carpet. I know that the thiels improved with the spikes in place.

I put this at the end because the post is already long but I want to discuss the subwoofer/bass response more.

My room has an amazing suck out below about 180hz. There is no way to fix the problem without a level of accoustic treatment that would bring upon me a reign of grief that I cannot describe in a family forum. I can over power the suck-out to a point but when the system is playing at a level that allows conversation with guests, the bass is anemic unless the sub is in play.

I understand your argument against subs. I can't count the number of poorly integrated subs I've heard in pro shops and I was reluctant to try one. But a well integrated sub can be a miraculous thing in situations like mine. I've spent enough time working with placement and tuning that I have the vandy seamlessly integrated. I built custom filters at just the right rolloff for my room. I can listen to music at a level that allows conversation and still get bass presence. I have the VRs playing softly now, and the bass line is very hard to follow.

After this test and the discovery that the sheryl crow CD has stereo bass tracks, I'll probably look for a matching 2wq so I can try stereo subs.

Edit:
I'm now listening to the 2-20 mule c'ville 722 recording. The JRs will go really low. But given that the 722 seems to accentuate bass and this is mule, I'm just not getting what I want in the lower end if played at moderate volumes. We'll see if this changes over the next couple of months but I think the sub is staying in for now.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2005, 02:06:47 PM »

Hey Carl,

thanks for checking in. I was previewing when I saw your post and didn't feel like integrating any editing.

I recognize the chasm that can exist between enjoyment and tinkering with gear. I'm just interested tinkering now because this is new gear and I am at the point where this is as good as it will get until I can buy a better room.

If you have not tried to biwire your JRs, you really should try it. If you are interested, I can loan you my 750s when I get bi-wire replacements. The 750s are an improvement over the T2s and I think if you run the 750s to the monitors you'll be stunned.

Congratulations on your new job.

ducati · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:31:37 PM »

How large is the suckout band? How large is your room, and where are the speakers placed in relation to the walls? If you have a suckout at 180hz, there's others... Where are they?

I don't like subs, ever. No matter how they're done, they call attention to themselves here and there. I just can't get over that. But then again I listen to lots of Jazz, with some classical, rock, and jambands mixed in... Subs tend to call attention to themselves with the music I listen to.

But there's one notable exception--Thiel's new sub with the integrator box. I didn't even know they were on, but for the fact my heart was being massaged. If you want an integrator box I could get you one... but they pricey, waaaay too pricey.

BTW--I'm running MIT MH750 Shotgun biwire cables... They're excellent. I ran MH750S3 Biwire before that, and shotgun Kimber 4TC before that. I am a big biwire fan... I'm not sure why it works so well, but my experience has been biwiring improves the sound very noticeably, especially in the areas of soundstaging and midrange clarity (in my rig).

scervin · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2005, 09:11:53 PM »

What are your room dimensions. Could model it up and find were the theoretical peaks should fall. SOunds like some room treatment is needed as well as playing around with the placement. Usually the really bad modes fall in the 60-80Hz band. How were you testing this? Can you post your curve?

sc.

rreidiii · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2005, 11:16:48 PM »

I thought I'd put a budget of $1500 on speakers since my wife would probably not mind too much and she doesn't. Now I'm really interested in these VR4jrs everyone is talking about, I did find out that they are about 4K new and of course I though for sure they are probably built somewhere on the east coast. So after doing a little reading and investigating I found out that these things are made directly accross the street from The college I teach at one a week. Which also happens to be no more than 10 minutes from my house. Needless to say I am going to stop buy there later this week to see if I can tour the factory. Perhaps see if there is a possibility of picking up a par of factory seconds, blems, or whatever. If you all are interested I will keep you posted on what happens.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:54:11 AM »

tour the VSA factory...
FUN!
fuck the 4jrs, go straight for the VR11 !

btw, I can get you a good deal on new 4jrs. Much better than $4k.
;-)

spiking my speakers...
the main reason i've not done it w/my 4s, is that the factory spikes are like a framing nail, and I have a hard time thinking about poking 8 wholes into a carpet I shelled out nearly $2k for not a year ago. Its like putting a nail in a wall you just sheetrocked. A painful thing to do. Plus, on occasion I have to move them...and I was told that they will never be moved again once you spike them.
I'll probably do it any way. Just let me get over that new carpet phobia.
I'm sure that it would help to some degree. It made a big difference w/my VR2's.

I'm surprized that bypassing that stock jumper on the VR4s made such an improvement...
good for you though, its awesome that you had the cables to give it a try and then found that to be the better solution.

SUB: The Vandy is a sweet, sweet sub. My first choice for a music sub. Big fan of multiple driver construction. Fast and tight!
I'm still amazed that you find music to be lacking anything w/o it though. Those speakers are full range. Your room "dead zone", is it where you are sitting, or where the speakers are placed?
I had a similar problem with my Martin Logans, and it was more likely due to where they were in the room vs. where I was listening from. Too bad I never moved the room around when I had them. I'd probably still have them.

ducati · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2005, 10:53:16 AM »

Nick, the holes in the carpet self-heal eventually, if you move them. Otherwise I'd have about 50 holes in mine right now, I've moved my speakers around quite a bit in the last 3 years since we built this house. Spike 'em, baby

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2005, 11:16:39 AM »

I'm buried today so no time to post a full description. Last night I drew a map of the room. I'll post tonight.

briefly:

the suck-out: I'm estimating 180hz is the knee but it rolls off ahead of that and all the way down. Everything down there gets taken away. I can find nodes by walking around. dead zone at my position for sure. the entire arrangement is a compromise against having a listening room and a room that will accomodate guests.

nick, if you are talking about a tight weave persian rug, then I agree against spikes. If you have regular carpeting, not problem. I spiked the thiels and moved them all the time and there is no damage to the carpret.

ducati, kt90s are packed and i'll get them out tomorrow.

scervin · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2005, 03:20:21 PM »

I thought VSA was west coast in CA?

sc.

Frank M · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2005, 04:10:00 PM »

Quote from: scervin on March 07, 2005, 03:20:21 PM

I thought VSA was west coast in CA?

Von Schweikert Audio is, Von Schweikert Research was in Watertown, NY until the factory was flooded. Insurance wouldn't cover the damages, and Albert went bankrupt. I was shocked at the time--how could speakers that good go out of production?! From what I gather, a (wise) investor bankrolled him a new business in California shortly thereafter.

scb · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2005, 04:22:52 PM »

all this talk about vr4jrs is making me want some, but i just got my vr2s. so shut up!

scervin · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2005, 04:24:24 PM »

I knew VSR was flooded out but the previous poster seemed to think Albert (new VSA) was still in NY. Just making sure I wasn't crazy

I asked a local guy if he would carry VSA and he said he wouldn't carry waterlogged speakers. What a jeck, they sound a heck of a lot better than what he carries now.

sc

Frank M · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2005, 04:46:08 PM »

Quote from: scervin on March 07, 2005, 04:24:24 PM

I asked a local guy if he would carry VSA and he said he wouldn't carry waterlogged speakers.
sc

In general, I think recording engineers and tapers alike are able to appreciate what the VR's do more so than audiophiles who aren't aware what a given recording should sound like in the first place.

Tim · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2005, 05:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Frank M on March 07, 2005, 04:46:08 PM

Quote from: scervin on March 07, 2005, 04:24:24 PM
I asked a local guy if he would carry VSA and he said he wouldn't carry waterlogged speakers.
sc

In general, I think recording engineers and tapers alike are able to appreciate what the VR's do more so than audiophiles who aren't aware what a given recording should sound like in the first place.

there's something to be said about making a recording yourself and then playing it back on your system...

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:24:02 PM »

I think Robert was saying he thought VSA was east coast but just found out they are in cali 10min from his house.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:24:43 PM »

OK, so here is the room, commentary to follow.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:56:11 PM »

The room layout shown is how the room is configured duing listening sessions. When I'm not doing critical listening, the centered chair is in front of the left speaker and oriented towad the group. I noted the ancillary rooms because I think they and the hall/entry are stealing my lower frequencies.

The ceiling is slopped. 12ft on the left(at sub), 10.5ft center(lower left trap), and 9ft (far right).

I get very good imaging in that spot, though not as good as could be had in a better room. I have tried other arrangements. I had a long wall arrangement with the furniture all pushed to the corner and window. But that arrangement had almost as many audible accoustic issues and none of the WAF of the current setup.

I have two 24x48 standing panels. One lives against the left 1st reflection point. The other floats as needed. They work well behind the speakers and infront of the glass, but WAF prevents permanent placement there.

The three red rings indicate planned tube trap placement. I will build 6 4'x18" round tubes and stack to 8' in the three corners. When I stand at the lower left red ring, there is a strong positive bass node there. The other corners exhibit bass bloom but not as bad.

I have plans for treating the walls:

4 24"x48" white pannels to hang 3" off the ceiling.
5 medium corner tunes clones for the main room
2 small corner tunes clones for the end of the entry room
assorted panels for the walls - placed high (over 8ft) due to WAF issues

I made a pair of room lens clones and they work very well. However, they are in prototype form and not appreciated at all by the GF. Also the one that would take the right wing position can't live there because of traffic issues but I can move things out for listening sessions.

I didn't do anything scientific about this. I came up with the tube trap ideas from walking the room and locating bass nodes. I came up with the panel and corner placements by clap tests. I can't do much about the glass so I may have to invest in super heavy curtains. I've read alot of anecdotal reports and I recognize some issues and the reported solutions are integrated into the plans. But I can't say that I really know what I'm doing.

Bass at my seat is very weak. I would be happy to get rid of the subwoofer if I could get satisfying bass. I said 180hz but it could be lower where the roll off starts. I think my room has response similar to AK50s

.

Help?

Tim · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2005, 07:02:53 PM »

Quote

I think my room has response similar to AK50s

rofl

scervin · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2005, 08:05:35 PM »

I think grabbing a Rat shack meter for $50 is in order. Also dl a program and make a sine sweep disc from 18Hz-250Hz or so. You can find this software on many car audio sites, just do a search. First run with speakers off and then with sub off (only because it is fun to see the difference). THere are correction tables for the rat shack meter online as well and need to use these to get close. Plot the curve and see what you have. Take the meaurements from your listening position. Bass nodes will always be in the corners and it may be a good idea to play with sub placement. You can then tune accordingly with tube bass traps. I'm not sure hanging a bunch of panels will help much as you haven't mentioned what type of panels they will be. You may end up taking down more of the highs and mids resulting in more bass. This also seems like it may make the room more dead than you might want. Not sure what type of couch or chairs you have, but big leather ones help in the deep bass as they are so dense.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #29 on:** March 07, 2005, 08:52:45 PM »

I'll look into a meter.

The panels are composed of knauf 2" rigid fiberglass dressed in high-loft batting and a layer of upholstry grade burlap. The free standing panels are unfaced and in a pine frame. The hung panels will be faced to retain rigidity.

The reason for the panels is to kill the echo. This room has lots of untreated surface and I can hear echo for almost two seconds. I'm planning to go slowly with adding panels and try different placements so hopefully I'll find the desired result before I go overboard. The corner tops are first.

Is there any room mode calculators that will work on rooms this complex? Most of the ones I saw (years ago) only worked on rectangular rooms with flat ceilings.

scervin · « **Reply #30 on:** March 07, 2005, 09:37:39 PM »

there are but it takes some software that you must buy. I think the SPL meter is a good start and will identify where you need to begin. The panels wil take out the echo. If you can hang them acoss the corners that would be best for the bass as well as echo. Not much is needed as far as surface area. My room is 13'x24' and I have 6 panels up 2- 2'x4' and 4 2'x2'.

geting pretty flat response at the moment.

sc

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #31 on:** March 08, 2005, 06:42:19 AM »

IMO, from the look of the map you have here, i'd be going w/a long wall configuration where the couch and sub are now. space them out 10+ feet, or however far you'll be sitting from them.
the speakers would go on the tall ceiling side, you'll sit on the short ceiling side.
downfall of that plan is that you'll have a wall behind your head. pad that wall for slap/echo and let it absorb the bass energy.
It may come w/its own issues, but having "no bass" with VR4jrs is like saying you have no balls in your new dodge Viper...as both have bass/balls a go go. It is there, its your room that needs to be augmented, not the Jrs.

Also, that is a pretty big space for the 4jrs. I'm sure they are up to the task though.

Scott ...
you lmk when you want to upgrade. I can swing you a sick-ass deal on some new VR4jrs.
;-)
Although, the sound you would be getting would be close to what you all ready have...only better. LOTs more bass than the VR2s. Better imaging w/the mid/tweet being in its own monitor resting on the sub module.
I like those modular speaker designs. You get all the strenghts of a monitor while adding the power of perfectly matched subs w/o having to deal with adding subs!

scervin · « **Reply #32 on:** March 08, 2005, 07:04:28 AM »

To be honest I'm waiting until I can get either the VR-4 III SE or VR-4SR and the matching LCR-40 center. My plan is to get the front end better and get a powerful amp so I can basically upgrade to whatever I can afford. I'm thinking speaker upgrade won't happen for several years. Although I may end up with VR-2's in my current home. I'd need more space for the larger speakers to really shine.

I may get with you in a few months about some monitors though.
sc.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #33 on:** March 08, 2005, 08:36:10 AM »

Wrong Scott.
I meant S. Brown, or that other fella, Scott B.

But, I can certaily hook you up w/the VR1s if you want them
although hard to find at times, used is the best price on these. $500-650 is average, and you could sell them for exactly that.
New through me is going to be closer to $800, and you could always sell them for $600 easy. So its like a $200 investment.
that is how I gage value in my gear. What I pay for it, and what I can sell it for. the difference being what it actualy costs me to run them for whatever time period I desire until its time to change up.

there ya go.
the secrete to my sluttyness

scervin · « **Reply #34 on:** March 08, 2005, 10:09:00 AM »

Too many Scott's in this thread. I plan on agon, but nobody ever is selling black (need to satisfy the wife).

scb · « **Reply #35 on:** March 08, 2005, 10:25:09 AM »

how about a black lcr35?

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1115410966

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #36 on:** March 08, 2005, 10:45:17 AM »

Nick,

The long wall configuration has been tried. 1) It won't work because of our need to accomodate guests. 2) The bass suckout is still there. I ran the thiels and sub in that config for well over a year and the problem is the same.

Originally I was worried that the speakers might be too small. I auditioned them in a room with about twice the volume of our main seating area and they did fine. So I know that they can sound right in a big room.

ducati · « **Reply #37 on:** March 08, 2005, 10:51:00 AM »

FWIW, the reason I have never liked subs is not due to the accentuation of bass--a good sub will do that very well. It's just that I have never been able to integrate them without seriously annoying suckouts caused in the frequencies where they cross with the mains... I always end up with an obvious suckout somewhere, much worse that my in-room response without the subs. You might be surprised if you measure the in-room response with and without your subs. Anywho, back OT...

Long wall can work well, but short wall should be OK here, too. I have my ProAc D25's short-wall in a essentially 12x37' room (combined kitchen and living room), and I have very few problems with bass nodes/bass power. I do have some humps here and there, but in the real world we all do. I have the measurements somewhere... Can't find them now.

The thing I don't understand is how you would have such a broadband suckout such that all low and midbass up to 180hz would be suppressed. I have never had a room that did this, and honestly didn't know this could happen as most rooms I've measured have humps and valleys, most often related to "room nodes" that enhance or suppress the bass.

What I did tweak the setup on my speaks was setup a RatShack SPL meter and grabbed my Stereophile Test CD 1. There are steady tones from bass on up on that CD. I set the reference to the 1khz tone (I think that's the ref tone on that disc) and then measured the relative output at all the frequencies. I then had a sheet that when plotted looked alot like JA's in-room measurements in S'phile. I tried a few different configs, and settled on the one that had enough WAF and the least amount of issues (with nodes, imaging, soundstage, etc). Honestly it was pretty easy to dial in with respect to bass--the soundstaging proved more difficult.

One thing that was helpful to me was to position the speakers at slightly different distances from the walls (side to side, not front to back obviously!). This smoothed out the bass response a bit. But you essentially have that here...

HMMN. I also used a cool trial version of room-setup software somewhere on the web; I'm not sure if it models sloped ceiling, tho. I'll see if I can find the link.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #38 on:** March 08, 2005, 12:16:59 PM »

hmm....
one of those sonic mysteries. every living room has it.
I wish a bass problem was all I had to contend with in my house.

good luck moving them around.
try talking to VSA and see if they have any suggestions?
just a thought.

scervin · « **Reply #39 on:** March 08, 2005, 12:34:36 PM »

"The thing I don't understand is how you would have such a broadband suckout such that all low and midbass up to 180hz would be suppressed. I have never had a room that did this, and honestly didn't know this could happen as most rooms I've measured have humps and valleys, most often related to "room nodes" that enhance or suppress the bass."

exactly, this is rather odd and why I mentioned picking up a $50 dolar tool that can be used for life. If all this doesn't work, there are companies out there making bass management software. Av123.com is going to release RDES this year I hope. You can adjust curves on the PC and download them into the box. Good stuff!

sc.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #40 on:** March 08, 2005, 01:14:34 PM »

There are humps and valleys. Depending on where you stand, you can find different nodes in the room. However there is an over all attenuation of the lower frequencies.

Again, I did sort of pick the 180hz number based on my familiarity with the AK50 caps and the neumann published response chart. It may very well be at a different point.

I'll try that SPL tester and let you guys know what I find.

Anyone in the DC area have a tester and who is interested in wasting an afternoon drinking beer and testing my room?

ducati · « **Reply #41 on:** March 08, 2005, 01:18:06 PM »

If you need a test disc let me know and I'll mail you my Stereophile disc.

scervin · « **Reply #42 on:** March 08, 2005, 06:57:51 PM »

Just remember you are not concerned with "all over the room" You need to flatten the response at your listening position. You wil not be able to control everything at once. Again, just concern yourself with the main seat.

sc.

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #43 on:** March 08, 2005, 07:13:17 PM »

Quote from: ducati on March 08, 2005, 01:18:06 PM

If you need a test disc let me know and I'll mail you my Stereophile disc.

I'll take you up on that. I won't have any time to mess with this until after April, so loan it to me when the KT90s come home.

Quote from: scervin on March 08, 2005, 06:57:51 PM

Just remember you are not concerned with "all over the room".

OK. Hopefully any improvement in my listening position will affect the rest of the room to an extent.

Thanks for all the input guys. This place has been on fire lately.

ducati · « **Reply #44 on:** March 09, 2005, 07:32:24 AM »

Will do. I'll send along Test Disc 3, as well.

pfife · « **Reply #45 on:** March 09, 2005, 08:02:43 AM »

Quote from: El Barto on March 08, 2005, 07:13:17 PM

Quote from: ducati on March 08, 2005, 01:18:06 PM
If you need a test disc let me know and I'll mail you my Stereophile disc.

I'll take you up on that. I won't have any time to mess with this until after April, so loan it to me when the KT90s come home.

Quote from: scervin on March 08, 2005, 06:57:51 PM
Just remember you are not concerned with "all over the room".

OK. Hopefully any improvement in my listening position will affect the rest of the room to an extent.

Thanks for all the input guys. This place has been on fire lately.

I love this forum! I'm learning quite a bit... (as well as spending money I don't have! lol)

scervin · « **Reply #46 on:** March 09, 2005, 10:13:32 AM »

Quote from: ducati on March 09, 2005, 07:32:24 AM

Will do. I'll send along Test Disc 3, as well.

Can this disc be ripped using EAC? Would be good for many to have. I've been using AVIA and DVE for most of my settings, but also made a couple using audio software. Would like to get a copy if I could.

NOW...which universal? Onkyo SP1000 Denon 3910 Denon 2910 + Benchmark DAC?

?
I think I did fairly well on my exam (Applied FEA ABE601 at Purdue if any have taken it) so I'm really thinking about getting the Onkyo SP1000. Reason I must wait for my grade is because if I don't pass the class GM will make me pay for it ($3400) and well thats a few DVD players! So far I'm at 96% on HW, but I'd like to see that first exam grade before spending money.

sc.