Topic: exploding microtracker

[KLowe]

[/quote]
It's still going to have crappy battery life even with optical. Seems unnecessary "problem" if you can call it one. I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.
[/quote]


Ho.  About the optical IN.  It is just my preferred method of dropping Bits from the A/D.  And....light impulses have no electical "noise" interferance issues with the cable.  It was an opinion and a preferance....FWIW.  I do kinda know what im talking about.

[Patrick]

Ho.  About the optical IN.  It is just my preferred method of dropping Bits from the A/D.  And....light impulses have no electical "noise" interferance issues with the cable.  It was an opinion and a preferance....FWIW.  I do kinda know what im talking about.

Yeah, but optical cables are more prone to failure because they are just that-- light impulses.  There is more of a chance for the light signal to be disturbed by either a kink in the cable, or a cheap connector or jack.

That being said, I still like using optical over digital coax.  That's just me.

[Scooter]

  But the battery is definitely life-limited. 

Paul

Exactly.  The batts will die sooner or later.  When that happens, we'll have to come up w/ an alternative powering scheme.  I hate non user-replaceable batts!!  If they just woulda included a DC in jack, no worries.

[udovdh]

  But the battery is definitely life-limited. 

Paul

Exactly.  The batts will day sooner or later.  When that happens, we'll have to come up w/ an alternative powering scheme.  I hate non user-replaceable batts!!  If they just woulda included a DC in jack, no worries.

DC-in is the USB connector.
But that is a workaround.

For the Ipod we have replacement batteries on the markets.
We need the same for the MT. Maybe even upgrades.   
If M-Audio are smart they start selling them after a year or so.

[tomjoad451]

For the Ipod we have replacement batteries on the markets.
We need the same for the MT. Maybe even upgrades.   
If M-Audio are smart they start selling them after a year or so.

They already do. They exchange batteries for $75. There is a document on the web with their battery replacement policy.

[ho]

It's still going to have crappy battery life even with optical. Seems unnecessary "problem" if you can call it one. I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.
[/quote]


Ho.  About the optical IN.  It is just my preferred method of dropping Bits from the A/D.  And....light impulses have no electical "noise" interferance issues with the cable.  It was an opinion and a preferance....FWIW.  I do kinda know what im talking about.

[/quote]
Not as stable.

[napa]

wow. that sucks.

[BobW]

Just checked in here after being away for a while.  In addition to using recording equipment, I also fly electric model airplanes.  And as such I am very familiar with the benefits and disadvantages of lithium cells. 

In my experience, I have never had a cell failure aside from simple loss of capacity.  But I have known people who have had similar failures that involved smoke and flames.  In one case, the failure seemed to be related to cell damage following a crash.  In the other cases, the failures seemed to be due to charger failure and resulting overcharging, but that is not definite.  It could be an internal cell failure, unrelated to any external cause. 

Bottom line is that most modelers consider LiPoly cells to be dangerous and store them in a fireproof box when not actually in use.  Mine live in an ammo box.  We also charge them either under direct supervision or in a fireproof container.  Mine get charged in that same ammo box.  As a cellphone and camera user, I accept the potential for catastrophic cell failure when I charge my cellphone and my digital camera. 

LiPoly cells do seem to be more dangerous than older technologies.  Possibly because the innards are flammable and because the housing is plastic and not metal?  And because the result of an overcharge or internal cell failure is a fire?  NiCd and NiMh cells would simply fizz and vent but I have never heard of one that actually caught fire. 

FWIW, there is an ugly little secret about LiPoly cells that Microtrack owners should be aware of.  And that is that LiPoly cells begin to degrade as soon as they are manufactured.  This degradation continues for the life of the cell.  It is accelerated by elevated temperature and higher state of charge, but the bottom line is that it continues regardless of whether you use your device continuously or leave it on the shelf.  And since the degradation is worse at higher states of charge, the common practice of leaving the unit fully charged accelerates the process.  On the other end, if you leave it discharged, the degradation is lessened.... but if the unit continues to draw a small amount of current in the OFF state, the cells can be discharged below 2.5V/cell and that will seriously accelerate the degradation.  In my electric model airplane experience, I get about 1-2 years max on cells before they have degraded to maybe 75% capacity.  Sometimes less.  Problem with the Microtrack is.... the cells are not user replaceable unless you want to open the case yourself and can find suitable cells.  It's the same issue I have, for example, with the iPod.  The degradation seems to be mostly an increase in internal resistance, so the relatively low current consumed by the MT may reduce the impact of the degradation.  But the battery is definitely life-limited. 

Paul

Solid information.  +T and thanks Paul

[balou2]

Just checked in here after being away for a while.  In addition to using recording equipment, I also fly electric model airplanes.  And as such I am very familiar with the benefits and disadvantages of lithium cells. 

In my experience, I have never had a cell failure aside from simple loss of capacity.  But I have known people who have had similar failures that involved smoke and flames.  In one case, the failure seemed to be related to cell damage following a crash.  In the other cases, the failures seemed to be due to charger failure and resulting overcharging, but that is not definite.  It could be an internal cell failure, unrelated to any external cause. 

Bottom line is that most modelers consider LiPoly cells to be dangerous and store them in a fireproof box when not actually in use.  Mine live in an ammo box.  We also charge them either under direct supervision or in a fireproof container.  Mine get charged in that same ammo box.  As a cellphone and camera user, I accept the potential for catastrophic cell failure when I charge my cellphone and my digital camera. 

LiPoly cells do seem to be more dangerous than older technologies.  Possibly because the innards are flammable and because the housing is plastic and not metal?  And because the result of an overcharge or internal cell failure is a fire?  NiCd and NiMh cells would simply fizz and vent but I have never heard of one that actually caught fire. 

FWIW, there is an ugly little secret about LiPoly cells that Microtrack owners should be aware of.  And that is that LiPoly cells begin to degrade as soon as they are manufactured.  This degradation continues for the life of the cell.  It is accelerated by elevated temperature and higher state of charge, but the bottom line is that it continues regardless of whether you use your device continuously or leave it on the shelf.  And since the degradation is worse at higher states of charge, the common practice of leaving the unit fully charged accelerates the process.  On the other end, if you leave it discharged, the degradation is lessened.... but if the unit continues to draw a small amount of current in the OFF state, the cells can be discharged below 2.5V/cell and that will seriously accelerate the degradation.  In my electric model airplane experience, I get about 1-2 years max on cells before they have degraded to maybe 75% capacity.  Sometimes less.  Problem with the Microtrack is.... the cells are not user replaceable unless you want to open the case yourself and can find suitable cells.  It's the same issue I have, for example, with the iPod.  The degradation seems to be mostly an increase in internal resistance, so the relatively low current consumed by the MT may reduce the impact of the degradation.  But the battery is definitely life-limited. 

Paul

Solid information.  +T and thanks Paul

Very solid...thanks Paul...but scary as hell.  Makes me want to get rid of my LiIon packs sitting in my closet.  Shit.

[George]

M Audio has been called and i am awaiting return call from supervisor.

i don't need a lawyer. my hand is fine and i don't need someone to take 30% of the small amount i will be due.

Any updates?

[whatboutbob]

The pics scared me a little, mostly because I've installed similar batteries in my irivers.  However I'm reassured by the sheer volume of ipods out there using similar batteries.  Y'all know that they'll sue over scratched screens, so I'm damn sure we'd have heard of 'exploding ipods' if it was an issue.

I'm keen to see how this unfolds, however I'm still not convinced that the firmware hasn't allowed for the MT to be overcharged (I really hope I'm wrong).

[smokydays]

Man, just happened apon this thread.  +T for your troubles as well.

Hey you didn't happen to see any contrails over your house just before the meltdown did ya? 

[rodeen]

I'm keen to see how this unfolds, however I'm still not convinced that the firmware hasn't allowed for the MT to be overcharged (I really hope I'm wrong).

I agree.  I think it is a firmware issue that allowed the overcharging.  Especially since they callout a change to the charging interface in the latest release notes:

While charging with the unit in the Application, the battery icon will contain the letters CHG. This will remain until the battery voltage reaches 100% and remains there for one hour. At that time, the CHG will be replaced with a plug icon (indicating it is plugged in and supplying power but no longer charging the battery). This one hour ‘timer’ will be reset only if power is removed for longer than 3 minutes (which will prevent the unit from overcharging if the power is removed and returned for short periods of time).

[pgoelz]

What is really scary is if the Microtrack is using its internal uP to do the charging.  If so, a crashed processor could allow the charge to continue forever without voltage limit.  And that would be VERY bad.  Does anyone have a clue how the charge is actually controlled in the Microtrack?  I'll bet M-Audio won't tell us.  Certainly not with a burned MT on the books. 

If on the other hand, the charge is handled by a separate dedicated chip, the process should be pretty foolproof unless the charge chip fails.  It is not possible to overcharge a LiPoly cell because the charge chip regulates the voltage to 4.2V/cell and a LiPoly cell can be held at 4.2V indefinitely without significant damage.  Take the cell voltage above about 4.5 or 5V and you have a fire. 

Yes, it is a bit scary.  The charge and protection circuitry inside my IBM Thinkpad 600 battery pack is almost as complex as the computer itself.  And most of that is protection circuitry to prevent catastrophic failure modes. 

Me, I returned my MT long ag in favor of an R1 and I am now waiting for an R-09.  I'm way happier with removable NiMh or alkaline cells. 

[Kindguy]

Makes me think about the dangers of external powering these. Do they show charging when a jucebox or similar is connected?


Edit don't know where ther jb3 comment came from?