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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: som on December 28, 2008, 12:37:12 PM
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Here is my current rig, pretty minamilist by many's standards:
AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)
I used to have the AT's with a mini-stereo termination, battery box, and D7. I went to the iRiver, mini-xlr terminated AT's, and Church preamp in one fell swoop. Ever since then I have made a couple of recordings that have a lot of distortion, especially on bass drum. With my previous setup, this did not happen.
I'm convinced that the problem concerns having two level controls that I have to ride, the preamp and the recorder. I bet I am sending too hot of a signal from the preamp, so even though my levels are fine at the recorder, it's basically recording a distorted signal. Does that sound right?
I am about to chunk the preamp and go back to a simple battery box. I don't tape that much, and when I do it's usually stealth and chances are good I'm the only taper. So, very dissapointing to go through the hassle and then have an unlistenable recording.
I did have one thought, though, and wanted to see if this makes sense. What if I set the level to max on the iRiver, and then contolled the recording level with *just* the preamp? Is this what I should have been doing all along? It seems like this would simplify the recording process and hopefully address the problems. Make sense?
Any words of wisdom are appreciated!
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Here is my current rig, pretty minamilist by many's standards:
AT ES943/C's > Church Audio ST-9100 > iRiver H100 (Rockboxed)
I used to have the AT's with a mini-stereo termination, battery box, and D7. I went to the iRiver, mini-xlr terminated AT's, and Church preamp in one fell swoop. Ever since then I have made a couple of recordings that have a lot of distortion, especially on bass drum. With my previous setup, this did not happen.
I'm convinced that the problem concerns having two level controls that I have to ride, the preamp and the recorder. I bet I am sending too hot of a signal from the preamp, so even though my levels are fine at the recorder, it's basically recording a distorted signal. Does that sound right?
I am about to chunk the preamp and go back to a simple battery box. I don't tape that much, and when I do it's usually stealth and chances are good I'm the only taper. So, very dissapointing to go through the hassle and then have an unlistenable recording.
I did have one thought, though, and wanted to see if this makes sense. What if I set the level to max on the iRiver, and then contolled the recording level with *just* the preamp? Is this what I should have been doing all along? It seems like this would simplify the recording process and hopefully address the problems. Make sense?
Any words of wisdom are appreciated!
There are 1000's of 9100 preamps out there being used for taping loud shows with no issues what so ever... Run the preamp at 70-75% on the dial make sure you have a fresh battery and make sure your going into a line input you don't have to touch the level control on the preamp once you set it at 75% that should be it if your still having problems send it all back to me with your mics and I will test it here and see if I can find out whats going on. You should have no issues provided your not using a mic input. Remember its not the preamp that is overloading because you have to put alot of signal into it before that happens.
It must be your recorders input or your mics.. Thats right, even though you did not have the problem before unless you were measuring levels and know for a fact that it was the same exact decibel level it could be that you were at a much louder concert the last few shows and did not realize it. I will do what ever I have to do to try and help you out just say the word. I dont just sell stuff and say haha I got your money :) I want to make sure my gear works for you, and if it does not I will try and fix it so it does.
Let me know if you have any other questions
Ps.. do you know when it was purchased is it a version 3.3?
Chris
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The TCD-D7/D8 has overload issues LINE input if MANUAL LEVEL knob is being turned down BELOW 4.5 mark for average VU readings of ~ -12 dB below 0 dB maximum. <4.5 setting indicates the LINE input from your preamplifier is WAY TOO HIGH AND NEEDS BE REDUCED so the deck's level knob is set above the 4.5 mark for getting -12 dB average (no more than -4 dB PEAK readings).
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/level4b.jpg)
So it seems you are running your preamplifier TOO HOT, AND NEED TO REDUCE THE GAIN so as NOT to overload your deck.
Suggest setting your deck level at #5 adjusting the preamps gain control so getting -12 dB VU average (no more than -4 dB momentary peak) readings and noting where the preamp's knob is being set for this, and maybe lowering it bit more for good measure.
See my tips page for how to avoid input overload on Sony DAT and other models at: www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm#dattip (http://www.sonicstudios.com/tips.htm#dattip)
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Thanks for the replies.
guysonic - I am not running the D7 any longer, I am running an iRiver. I never had this problem with the ATs / battery box / D7.
Chris - I did not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with your preamp, if anything there is something wrong with the *recorder* (and I don't mean the iRiver!) :P The preamp was purchased about 3 years ago.
Yes, I am going line in, not mic in.
Back to my original question....is it an acceptable "approach" to just turn up the recorder's level all the way up, and use the preamp as the sole "level that gets tweaked" at the actual gig? Or is there a delicate balance that must be struck between the preamp and the recorder?
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You're not going to want to turn the recorders level all the way up. That is probably what is causing the distortion.
I'm not familiar with the iRiver but for my JB3 I select "line-in" as the source and leave the levels at 0db. I control all levels going into it with the levels on my pre-amp.
If I were you, I would go to a free show (local bands are good) and run some tests and dial in your settings. Once you figure out appox. where your levels need to be set you can go into all future shows with those settings and go from there depending on how loud each show is. Since most shows are in the same neighborhood for db's you frequently don't have to adjust a thing.
Also for stealth shows I like to run my levels a little low, that way I can be sure I don't go over and just boost the levels in post (not ideal but better than having to keep looking in your pocket and risking getting caught).
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Does your 9100 have the 4.7k switch? I saw you were going mini-XLR into the 9100. I have a 9100 with the 4.7k switch. I turn that on, turn the 9100 up to full, and record line in on the iRiver. If it is an acoustic show I turn the 4.7k switch off and notch the volume down about a quarter. I always run the iRiver at 0db gain. Most of the time I have to up the volume of recordings in post processing, but that's better than getting distortion. I think unity gain for the 9100 without the 4.7k switch is 11 o'clock. I would set the iRiver at 0 gain and adjust gain with the 9100. Using the above settings I have never clipped with a set of AT mics, I run 853s.
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My 9100 has a red LED that lights up when the signal is too hot into the pre and needs to be turned down.
If you are taping really loud stuff, you probably just need a battery box.
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Won't the 9100 will attenuate the signal at something like anything before 11pm? I have never had any issues with 9100 into a ihp120 or h320 and i have recorded metal and rock shows, bb won't make a difference if the 9100 doesn't
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Thanks for the replies.
guysonic - I am not running the D7 any longer, I am running an iRiver. I never had this problem with the ATs / battery box / D7.
Chris - I did not mean to imply that there is anything wrong with your preamp, if anything there is something wrong with the *recorder* (and I don't mean the iRiver!) :P The preamp was purchased about 3 years ago.
Yes, I am going line in, not mic in.
Back to my original question....is it an acceptable "approach" to just turn up the recorder's level all the way up, and use the preamp as the sole "level that gets tweaked" at the actual gig? Or is there a delicate balance that must be struck between the preamp and the recorder?
I see. Well back then my preamps only put out about 4.6 volts now they put out 8 volts. That is a huge difference. I can upgrade your preamp for $79 that will give you a brand new preamp with the trade in of the old preamp.
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So, if I read that correctly, the mics are somewhat under-powered with that particular model of preamp, as compared to the battery box that I was previously running. This would explain the brick walling, right? So it's not an issue of setting levels correctly or not, it's an issue of insufficient power to the mics.
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If you have a voltage meter, check the output of the 9100 to the mics to see what kind of voltage your mics are actually getting to eliminate that as a possiblity. Chris is right on, under powered mics don't perform well and the ATs need at least 5v to work properly.
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So, if I read that correctly, the mics are somewhat under-powered with that particular model of preamp, as compared to the battery box that I was previously running. This would explain the brick walling, right? So it's not an issue of setting levels correctly or not, it's an issue of insufficient power to the mics.
Most mics like my mics for example are fine with 4.6 volts but some mics like the 900 series of AT mics should have at least 6 volts to run properly.
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Regardless of anything else said in this thread, (much good advice here by the way), DO NOT run the level of the iRiver all the way up and DO NOT run the level of the 9100 all the way up......
If it is a loud show, run the iRiver ( it is rockboxed, right?) at around 3-5 and engage Safety Clip. This will lower the gain ONLY if the levels peak at -3dB and NEVER raise the levels. Set this regardless of the volume of the show and get all gain from your 9100.
On the 9100, 11:00 is unity gain, neither boosting or cutting signal levels, at indoor rock shows I never really get above 12:30....
Make sure your 9100's battery has AT LEAST 7.5 volts at a minimum or you will get brickwalling on the low bass...
Do you have anything you can use to monitor with at a show?
Good luck!
Joe
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Like Bug alluded to... use the H120 Rockbox with the "safety clip" and set it to something like +3 to +5 db gain, it will gain that much inside the iRiver, and the rest in the 9100. If the signal coming into the H120 is too hot it will "ratchet down" a little at time to prevent clipping. Ideally you can avoid that, but it has this "safety clip" in case the music gets louder and you aren't paying attention. What you DON'T want is for that to ratchet down below 0, into the negative numbers. I believe you get ugly distortion below that.
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I actually have -3 to -5 from time to time... Nothing really nasty about it... Other than the source sometimes!
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Regarding how much gain to get from the iRiver, don't even think of setting the iRiver's gain to the max. Many have said here that you start to hear noise after +10 or +15. The gain after +24 is digital gain, so you don't ever want to use that. You'd be better served to boost in post on your computer.
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Thanks for all of the replies. The thing that makes most sense is that the mics are starved for power, and are brickwalling at loud shows. If they in fact require 6v, and the preamp is putting out less than 5v, and I only experience this at loud shows, I think that's it. Makes sense to me.
I really want to get back to a simpler rig, anyway....I don't record that often, and just want my mini-stereo terminated mics > battery box > recorder setup back. I am trying to see what Chris can do, maybe trade-in the mics and preamp for a set of his cards (he modified my mics and put mini-xlrs on 'em when I got the preamp).
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I would suggest that you try your current set up either at a show or VERY close to a loud speaker.
as far as simplicity, all you have done is move the gain knob from the recorder to the box....