Topic: DAT vs Minidisc?

[jagraham]

could someone please give me a rundown on the pros and cons of each?  i want to be able to tape from the board for band that allow it, set up a stand for FOB recordings, and also be able to go stealth for non taping shows.  im looking at buying a used recorder on ebay and figured that would be the first thing i need.  any help would be appreciated!

[Belexes]

I can tell you the cons of DAT is that it is pricey for blanks, the player is somewhat bulky, and then there is the transfer time to get the recording over to your hard drive.  It's tape, so the master will degrade over time.
I went from analog > DAT in '94 just to quit flipping tapes during concerts (with stealth it was always a chore) and to go digital of course.

I can't comment on MD, but you may want to introduce a flash recorder like the R-09 or the iriver into your decision making.

[Roving Sign]

Neither!!!

DAT is obsolete - no one even manufactures decks anymore...tapes are becoming hard to find. D7s are almost 15 years old!

MD same...obsolete...its cousin - Hi-MD - used by some, but has its own set of drawbacks...

Look at the newer flash recorders...

Zoom H2, Edirol R-09, Microtrack, or even a harddisc recorder like the old JB3..

[firmdragon]

I can tell you the cons of DAT is that it is pricey for blanks, the player is somewhat bulky, and then there is the transfer time to get the recording over to your hard drive.  It's tape, so the master will degrade over time.
I went from analog > DAT in '94 just to quit flipping tapes during concerts (with stealth it was always a chore) and to go digital of course.

I can't comment on MD, but you may want to introduce a flash recorder like the R-09 or the iriver into your decision making.

don't bother with either at this point.  both are money pits.  believe me.  go with the flash recorder.

[eric.B]

every recorder that has ever been produced has drawbacks of some sort for what we do.  these new HDD/CF based recorders are no different, however hit closer than ever on the to the mark of being a "perfect" deck.  the $2K+  sound devices 722 is a great piece of gear but that's just the thing.. its two grand!..  I only say the 722 hits the mark because it sounds decent running mic in, has a great line in, AND a digital input (not many units out there do ALL of these things for a reasonable price).  Of course there are few recorders that do what the 722 does, but they are even more expensive..   so for the beginner or hobbyist with these recorders out of reach, one must make a compromise or two to get "decent" recordings.    It all comes down to a few things, and they are decided by what you plan to do with this recorder.

If you are just going to record line level signals (ie: soundboard, external pre, battery box), then I would go for the edirol R9.  Just make sure you have all the necessary essentials in terms of cabling for many situations, as the R9 has an 1/8 inch stereo input only, but with this recorder you can record excellent line level signals.  This leads to the next of the few things.  If you are going to need a recorder to record ambient far field stuff (ie taping) with a pair of microphones, you will also probably need some sort of power supply to power "decent" microphones.  This could either be phantom power box's ( akg b18, ps2, battery box etc), or an external pre with phantom power, like a grace v2, or edirol ua5, or an sd mp2 etc.....   With one of these units, you can feed the r9 an excellent line level signal which will produce great recordings..    used c4's > ps2 > r9 would be a sweet sub700 rig with the proper cabling.. 

The only other thing is whether or not you're computer savvy a bit, as using these compact flash based recorders will require you to use a computer for archiving and processing of recordings, but you might already know that..    so in conclusion..  if you have no problem using a computer for this recording gig you have, I say go with the edirol R9..  long running battery, great line in, small, cf based, and cheap.......

[boojum]

To answer your question: DAT is obsolete and troublesome.  It also records by actual contact of tape to metal.  Tape heads can be a problem keeping clean, and aligned.

MD, currently, Hi-MD, is nearly obsolete. For stealth it is quite nice.  The SONY RH1 has very good pre-amps but will not supply phantom power.  So your mic selection is limited to non-phantom powered mics.  There are some pretty good ones out there.  I like the Sennheisers and Audio Technica ones modded by Sound Professionals and Microphone Madness.  There are others

Both can make wonderful recordings.

That said, you would be wise to look at something more current technologically, if you can afford it and want to.  At the high end for hobbyists is the SD722 or the SD744T. Both are good, rugged, do lots of things very well and sound good.  They are a simple all-in-one out-of-the-box solution and very easy to use.  They do cost.  But, you will not have to buy another recorder for a long, long time.

In between the Sound Devices and twhat you asked about are a number of soultions.  Which is better is a Ford-Chevy thing.

Cheers

[yug du nord]

Warning:  MD fluffer!!! 

I'll chime in for Hi-MD!  Some of the many pros...  small, simple, reliable, recording times on a 1gig disc are approx. 1:35 (PCM lossless), 10:00 (Hi-SP), 40:00 (Hi-LP).  Hi-SP and Hi-LP are good for personal usage, but always go PCM when recording live music!  uninterrupted battery power with "AA" external battery pack, quick transfer via usb, reusable discs (get a dozen(12gigs) or so for approx. $5 each and your good to go!), optical input, good line-in, decent mic-input, good personal digital music player, great all-around recorder AND bit bucket!!!   

Some cons... only 1:35 in lossless format per disc which means possible "tape flip" unless ya got two decks!  You can change discs in about :45 seconds though.  No digital out!!!  16bit.  Slowly disappearing in the U.S., but still strong in China/Japan.  I'm sure there are a couple others, but I'm in a fluffin' mood!   

Although I have not had many problems with any minidisc format, spend the extra few dollars and get a Sony Hi-MD deck, there's really not much of a reason to get an older "legacy" deck of any brand since they don't have the ability to record in a lossless format.  But then again, an inexpensive older "legacy" minidisc recorder is capable of pulling a pretty good recording if need-be!   Anyways...  Highly recommended in my book!!!  Especially with the Hi-MD format which matches or beats any stock 16bit recorder/bit bucket!!!  IMHO!!!    

edit to add:  Be cautious of buying small portable electronics from ebay.  I'm not saying don't buy any off ebay...  just be cautious!!!  Any small electronic device that can be carried in a pocket or backpack and jiggled and bumped around could be trouble.  Be aware of the sellers return policy or lack of!  Just some cautious advice!!!       

[Belexes]

I still can't get rid of my DAT.  It's an old trusty friend that I made SO MANY great recordings over the years. I'm going to hold off on the funeral and don't expect anyone to come to the wake.

[sailcat]

get a flash-based recorder. If you really get into the hobby, you'll start feeling pangs of gear lust and you'll want to upgrade to the 722 or whatever, but to start out, get the Zoom H2. It does everything the R09 does for around $100 less, which leaves that money toward a Church preamp and mics. The line in on the Zoom is every bit as good as the R09, and the internal mics are better. Both are plastic and need careful handling. The Microtrack is roughly equivalent to the R09 in price, performance, and plastic, and is the only one with digital in, if you want that, but is limited by built-in batteries that cost a bunch to replace.

In a couple of years all of them will be obsolete and replaced  by something else that is even more awesome and we'll all want that.

[fmaderjr]

I agree with uncleyug on the good points of Hi-MD except that I would go further and say that it's perfectly fine to use Hi-SP instead of PCM for live music when you don't want to deal with that 45 second disc exchange after 95 minutes. Once converted to wave I feel very few people would be able to hear the difference. The MZ-RH1 is an incredible stealth recorder. Keep it in your shirt pocket and you can easily see & change your levels if required. Sounds great with good mini-mics. I usually use it with a tiny Church Audio battery box to go line in, but the preamps are supposed to be excellent except in the highest sound pressure situations.

My problem with DAT (I used an Oade modded TCD-D100) was that at least every 2 years of not too frequent use I started getting occasional dropouts in the recordings and would have to pay Pro Digital $200+ to bring the machine up to specs. Paul at Pro digital said that the consumer Sony DATs use plastic gears that are constantly breaking and cause these problems. I've used a lot of mini disc recorders over the years and in the last 10 years have never needed one repaired or replaced (except when I wanted to replace one with a newer model). Required maintenance on DATs can be frequent & expensive.

As Eric B. says the Edirol R-09 would also be a fine choice (although I've never used one), but I would stay away from the ZOOM H2 and the MicroTrack. In some high sound pressure situations, from what I've read here & on the Zoom forums, I believe it is possible to get clipping with both no matter how much you turn down those machine's record levels unless you use something like the Church Audio ST-9100 to attenuate the signal the machine receives. Also the MicroTrack's non-removable internal battery is a huge pain.

[stantheman1976]

When all is said and done do you want a physical tape or similar medium to store your result on or are you OK with just having files to store on hard drive or data DVD or CD?

Both DAT and MD, Hi-MD or regular MD, are not well supported anymore.  DAT has been officially phased out of production I believe.  Tapes are not cheap but it's a trustworthy medium IMO.  MD never really caught on big in America.  The Hi-MD units are very nice but as stated by others they have time limitations and the discs are still several bucks a piece.  If you record numerous shows and keep the masters that can add up quickly.

Flash or hard drive based recorders are convenient and extremely handy.  You can record whatever you please, dump it to your PC, and start all over again.  The Edirol R-09 and Zoom even have built in mics in case you're ever out and about and need to record something quickly.  They're not as good as external, more expensive mics but are great in a pinch.  The main drawback for people like me is when you're done editing and have your final product you only have digital files store on a PC or other storage device.  Over time these can be lost more easily than than a tape or MD that, in theory, should out last a hard drive or recorded DVD by many years.

[DeepCreatures]

I still can't get rid of my DAT.  It's an old trusty friend that I made SO MANY great recordings over the years. I'm going to hold off on the funeral and don't expect anyone to come to the wake.

i will be there with you.  i have been taking the opposite approach to DAT recently.  since they are on the outs, so to speak, i have been able to get a number of used decks really cheap.  this year alone i have purchased a backup M1, two DA-P1s, and my third Tascam DA-20mkII.  why?  this way, i can stick with DAT for a long time to come.  love the recorders, love the transfer process, love the media, just really enjoy DATs.  when it is all over and there is no more repairs that can be done or DAT tapes to be purchased?  well, i have my trusty Marantz PMD-430 that will be used more often then.

on a side note, I have the MZ-RH10 Hi-MD and really enjoy the recordings i get from it too - very nice line-in recordings.

anyway, best wishes all!

peace,
ts

[Roving Sign]

I still can't get rid of my DAT.  It's an old trusty friend that I made SO MANY great recordings over the years. I'm going to hold off on the funeral and don't expect anyone to come to the wake.

i will be there with you.  i have been taking the opposite approach to DAT recently.  since they are on the outs, so to speak, i have been able to get a number of used decks really cheap.  this year alone i have purchased a backup M1, two DA-P1s, and my third Tascam DA-20mkII.  why?  this way, i can stick with DAT for a long time to come.  love the recorders, love the transfer process, love the media, just really enjoy DATs.  when it is all over and there is no more repairs that can be done or DAT tapes to be purchased?  well, i have my trusty Marantz PMD-430 that will be used more often then.

on a side note, I have the MZ-RH10 Hi-MD and really enjoy the recordings i get from it too - very nice line-in recordings.

anyway, best wishes all!

peace,
ts

Do you love the error rate from dirty or misalinged heads? 15 year old A/D technology?

I have to think that the modern recorders are much more accurate...too much error correction in DAT spdif...you might not hear it(or think you dont hear it) - but its happening...

Even though they both might produce a valid spdif stream...I dont really think DAT is equivalent to HD/Flash

[DeepCreatures]

Do you love the error rate from dirty or misalinged heads? 15 year old A/D technology?

I have to think that the modern recorders are much more accurate...too much error correction in DAT spdif...you might not hear it(or think you dont hear it) - but its happening...

Even though they both might produce a valid spdif stream...I dont really think DAT is equivalent to HD/Flash

can check the rates with the DA-20mkII's that i have and, to be honest, it is a rare thing for me to get error rates much higher that "00 12" for the most part.  now, some of them that have been cloned a lot have more problems.  of course, i am down to dealing w/masters or 1st-2nd gen clones these days.  anyway, just not bought off on the HD/Flash recorders yet, but they are getting better.  the MTII may be the answer for me since i heard it will have a digital input - will have to wait and see how it does.

peace,
ts

[dunebug81]

Warning:  MD fluffer!!! 

No digital out!!!

HIMD has USB out.  It doesn't have an optical out but the USB uploads faster then real time which I think is better.

I have the HIMD Sony RH1 and I love it.  I'll switch to something else when I can't buy blanks any more but until then I love my recorder.

[nameloc01]

I wont even entertain the thought of using another recording device over my hi-mds until.... either they are both broken beyond repair and/or i cant get blanks anymore. And since i've stockpiled a shitload of 1gb blanks... I think its gonna be hi-md for quite a while. Note: actually if was able to buy a brand new dat deck, i may go that way. Guess i missed that window.