Topic: Mic for loud rock shows

[Mr.Scully]

Hi guys,

for many years I was using the Sony ECM-719 mic which was great for capturing the overall "atmosphere" (the recording had enough bass and you felt like you were at the concert) but the sound wasn't so clear so I was looking for replacement here in this forum. At first I looked at the Church Audio mics but I didn't like the sound samples in the archive, the sound wasn't clear either. Then I found Sound Professionals and bought equipment from them - SP-SPSB-8 battery box and SP-CMC-8 (ES943) cardioids (I bought the omnis as well) + Edirol R-09HR. The sound from the cardiods is clean (and great for folk, classical and other styles of music I don't listen to) BUT lacks power, bass... it's okay but it just doesn't feel right. (I also tried the omnis once but the recording was distorted although I'm quite sure I used the battery box). And that's even though I'm always using the battery box with bass roll off switched off.

So here I am again... searching for new mics :-) They have to be small (stealth), preferably cardioids (to avoid capturing all that audience noise) and must sound "powerful". Is there anything you can recommend to me? I usually record loud rock/punk shows (mostly indoors) and I definitely don't want to pay more than $400 (the less the better, of course).

I also remember one sentence that somebody told me a few years ago: "Phantom power is the absolute best and only way to go." Does it just avoid clipping and overloading OR can it improve the sound itself as well?

Thanks

[fmaderjr]

You probably don't want to hear it, I guess, but CA-14 cards (& omnis) are fantastic mics and are far better than SP-CMC-8 cards. You can't get stealth cards for $400 or less that sound better and they cost MUCH less.

I don't know what sound samples you listened to.

CMC-8's are thin sounding and has been stated, lacking in the bass department. I use to own a pair and am more than happy with my CA-14's at this time.

Don't let the size deter you. Many of us discreetly tape with large mics without issue.

[adrianf74]

You probably don't want to hear it, I guess, but CA-14 cards (& omnis) are fantastic mics and are far better than SP-CMC-8 cards. You can't get stealth cards for $400 or less that sound better and they cost MUCH less.

I don't know what sound samples you listened to.

+1.  What he said.  I sold my CMC-8's (based on the AT-933/c) and bought the CA-14 which are much better sonically.  You won't find better sounding cards under $400.  As far as the "not quite right" factor, that's the unfortunate pick-up pattern of card mics -- I generally prefer my omnis to cards 99 times out of 100.

The CA-14 omnis are awesome for the price.  The only reason I'm looking at B3's or 4061's is because I need something smaller (and those are both omnis) and likely well past the $400 mark. 

[Mr.Scully]

Thanks, guys. OK, I might give a second chance to the Church Audio mics :-)

adrianf74 - do you have any samples how the CA-14 cardioids sound compared to the CA-14 omnis?

I guess I can use the Church Audio mics with my SP battery box as it's a standard connector?

Perhaps I should also give a second chance to the SP-CMC-8 omnis... I just found out that my only unsuccessful attempt with them was without the battery box, hence the distortion. Do omnis really generally sound better than the cardioids?

[newplanet7]

Do omnis really generally sound better than the cardioids?

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

[adrianf74]

You should give them a third and fourth chance, too.  The problem is this - when you're using the mics to capture ambient sound, there are too many variables left openthat can affect your chances of a good capture.  Not only do you have to deal with drunk morons, there's also a strong chance that the audio sound will "change" from night to night (even if it's the same band playing a multi-night stand).  It could also be as simple as you couldn't get to the sweet spot and had to stand 3-to-4 feet away killing your recording.

I only have one recording where I was able to use both the cards and omnis within inches of each other and this was on a light stand, flying at about 9 feet outdoors and too far away from the source.  Both recordings sound faulted - the omnis sound distant and the cards sound artificial.  This would be far from ideal as a fair comparison.  What is better comes down to personal preferences (much like clothes or food) -- even with drunken idiots, I'd still prefer the sound of an omni capture over cards... I rolled on a show last night where it was a signer-songwriter opening and the crowd was noisy.  The cards would have deflected the idle chit-chat but the resulting recording would sound "fake" to me but the talkers would be less prevalent.   I haven't used the CMC-8 omnis but there are some people on here that like the AT-943/o (again, personal preference).  The whole "what mic do I use" I liken this way - if it's a small club (say 300 people), and you can mount above the crowd and/or be closer than 10 people from the stage (and in line with a stack), run the omnis.  If you're stuck further back in the room (by the board), then the cards might be the better solution.  I usually bring both options with me and figure it out when I get there.

As for the SP battery box - assuming it's a 9V box, it should safely power either mic.  Whatever you do, don't try and record a rock show without a battery box - you've experienced first-hand what happens.

[adrianf74]

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

Not to get into a flame war or anything... this is very much a personal preference and experience situation (and I've said as much above).  Depending on the venue there may be times where cards are "TOO CLOSE" to use (i.e., pretty much any small club under 500 people).  Cards do sound less "real" but as I said this is very much a personal preference.  I hate people who think cards are the only way to go (I used to be part of that club but have been learning that this is far from the case and there are many people in these parts who will either roll with omnis or do a matrix with both omnis and cards but never rely on cards alone unless they absolutely need to). 

In the last 20 or shows I've rolled this since mid-July, only two of these shows used the cards.  One was because I was stuck by the soundboard in a club that stands about 3000 people and had to stand around 40-odd rows from the stage; the other was because I needed to deflect "unruly wooks" outdoors and it was a solo-performance and I was set up about 150-200 feet from the stage FOB.  In the first case, I don't like the sound anywhere as much as the recording I made the following night (outdoors vs. indoors) using omnis.   In the case where I was dealing with wooks, even though I was running the CA-14's with Dead Rats, I got hit by wind as I was flying them at 9-to-10 feet.  The other two performances that night where the omnis were used didn't get hit, period.

In some other cases, a friend used his AKG480's with cards and I've run omnis (at this same festival) and my omnis sounded a lot richer and alive whereas his recording (on a stand at the same height with mics no more than 18 inches away sounded hollow. 

[newplanet7]

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

Depending on the venue there may be times where cards are "TOO CLOSE" to use (i.e., pretty much any small club under 500 people). 

?.
Maybe for you. A ton of members on this board only tape club/theater shows. Me being one and the above statement is false.
Omni's are great for onstage/stage-lip, outdoors, and great for mixdowns.
Cards are equally as great in said situations and reject more of the negatives that show up with omnis'
IE Crowd, or shitty room sound.
My point being you would use cards in a number of more situations than you would omnis. Shitty sounding rooms
rowdy crowds

Just personal preference here but I don't like the sound of omnis unless they have an actual decent split between
them to get great imaging.

[Mr.Scully]

I just spent half an hour listening to samples in the archive (and comparing CA-14 cardioids to omnis) and I think both of you are right in some aspects. To me the omnis sound more natural, it feels like if I was right at the venue. While cardiods are more versatile and one can use them in all kinds of situations. In the end it's good to have both :-)

So at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

[adrianf74]

I just spent half an hour listening to samples in the archive (and comparing CA-14 cardioids to omnis) and I think both of you are right in some aspects. To me the omnis sound more natural, it feels like if I was right at the venue. While cardiods are more versatile and one can use them in all kinds of situations. In the end it's good to have both :-)

So at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

Indeed.  99% of the time I carry both my CA-14 omnis and cards with me and decide what I'm doing once I secure my spot.  I used to run the CMC-8's and, although they weren't bad, the CA-14's are considerably better (increased bass response for cards as well as a "cleaner" mid-range). 

Best of luck.

[fmaderjr]

at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

The SP-CMC-8 omnis are generally well liked here so you'll probably be happy you tried them. It is the cards many of us have a problem with. (I wouldn't be surprised if the CA-14 omnis were a bit better though).

However some situations are much better suited to cards than omnis and sometimes vise versa. It is good to have a good pair of each available and to know when to use them (not my strong point- I almost always use cards to minimize the chatter behind me).

[adrianf74]

at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

The SP-CMC-8 omnis are generally well liked here so you'll probably be happy you tried them. It is the cards many of us have a problem with. (I wouldn't be surprised if the CA-14 omnis were a bit better though).

However some situations are much better suited to cards than omnis and sometimes vise versa. It is good to have a good pair of each available and to know when to use them (not my strong point- I almost always use cards to minimize the chatter behind me).

Can't speak of the CMC-8 omnis but I do like my CA-14 omnis.   Since you normally run your cards, I don't s'pose you're looking to sell your 4060's?   

[Mr.Scully]

Speaking of Sound Professionals, I've heard that the AT853 capsules (SP-CMC-4 I think) may in fact sound better than the more expensive ES943 (SP-CMC-8)? Is it because of the poor bass performance of the SP-CMC-8 cardioids?

[fmaderjr]

Since you normally run your cards, I don't s'pose you're looking to sell your 4060's?   

No, I got rid of a pair of 4061's but I'll keep these for a while.

[acidjack]

Speaking of Sound Professionals, I've heard that the AT853 capsules (SP-CMC-4 I think) may in fact sound better than the more expensive ES943 (SP-CMC-8)? Is it because of the poor bass performance of the SP-CMC-8 cardioids?

I'd say that is a commonly-held view, yes.  I made some recordings I liked OK with the CMC-8 cardiods - frankly a lot of people who stealth seem to like recordings with very little bass, based on some of what I see touted as "great" recordings on DIME and elsewhere - but I moved to the adapters and 853 caps shortly after.   (For omnis, the CMC8s are fine - the omnis have plenty of bass). 

The CMC-4 is much more natural sounding and had a fuller response than the CMC-8.  It is also larger.

[Red Boink]

check out the crown cm700 pair...

[Mr.Scully]

OK, before I buy anything, I I tried the SP-CMC-8 omnis at a Rammstein + Deathstars gig and I'm VERY unhappy about the result. I tried both cardioids and omnis (switched them during the set while keeping the same settings on my Edirol) and here are the raw (totally unedited) samples. (I was on the "balcony" so I know I would normally use cardioids but I just wanted to test the omnis anyway).

SP-CMC-8 cardioids:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-cardioid.mp3
- the sound is not clear but there's no distortion so remastering would help and I could get a decent VG recording - I still wouldn't be happy about it but it would sound at least acceptable

SP-CMC-8 omnis:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-omni.mp3
- heavy distortion on bass drum (and drums/bass in general) - why is that? Nothing was clipped, the sound didn't reach the peaks at all... (I set my Edirol volume level to 50).

My setup was SP-CMC-8 (Audio Technica ES943) -> SP-SPSB-8 (bass roll off switched off) -> Edirol R-09 HR (line-in). Was I supposed to set the low frequency limiter on the battery box? Would I get a significantly better result with NO distortion or not? I'm confused because with cardioids I never get any distortion...

[darktrain]

OK, before I buy anything, I I tried the SP-CMC-8 omnis at a Rammstein + Deathstars gig and I'm VERY unhappy about the result. I tried both cardioids and omnis (switched them during the set while keeping the same settings on my Edirol) and here are the raw (totally unedited) samples. (I was on the "balcony" so I know I would normally use cardioids but I just wanted to test the omnis anyway).

SP-CMC-8 cardioids:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-cardioid.mp3
- the sound is not clear but there's no distortion so remastering would help and I could get a decent VG recording - I still wouldn't be happy about it but it would sound at least acceptable

SP-CMC-8 omnis:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-omni.mp3
- heavy distortion on bass drum (and drums/bass in general) - why is that? Nothing was clipped, the sound didn't reach the peaks at all... (I set my Edirol volume level to 50).

My setup was SP-CMC-8 (Audio Technica ES943) -> SP-SPSB-8 (bass roll off switched off) -> Edirol R-09 HR (line-in). Was I supposed to set the low frequency limiter on the battery box? Would I get a significantly better result with NO distortion or not? I'm confused because with cardioids I never get any distortion...

To me it sounds like this is in a arena and you have the mics too low on your body and far away which unfortunately is what you get, omnis generally not great indoors in those settings, I don't necesarliy hear distortion, you just need to run the omni file through a high pass filter and that will tone down the bass. I learned years ago to get those mics up high and in general FOB triangulated with the stacks. Obviously that can vary but its a starting place. Once i started mounting mics high my recordings were amazingly more consistant and better, any further info send pm's.

[Mr.Scully]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

So as long as I have the mics on my shoulders, I will never be able to get a really good recording? It seems to me that I have to use the cardioids to be sure the result is *at least* good. Maybe I'll buy and try the CA-14 cardioids...

[darktrain]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

So as long as I have the mics on my shoulders, I will never be able to get a really good recording? It seems to me that I have to use the cardioids to be sure the result is *at least* good. Maybe I'll buy and try the CA-14 cardioids...

I am next to securtiy all the time and never worry about them anymore, i have and many others have found ways to get the mics up high, without giving up anything specific use some kind of hat or croakie solution and be creative, hell i have short hair and have found as way to keep em up high and keep wires hidden, even at shoulder height your mics have no clear path to the music if you are in the crowd, you can pull good recordings with shoulder mount but those for me tended to be when i was in the first row of the balcony where there was a clear path or directly in front of a stack

[Mr.Scully]

OK, so I will get a hat :-) But still the question remains - would a hat make such a significant difference when using the omnis? Or are the cards the only way to go in these big indoor arenas with poor acoustics?

[darktrain]

OK, so I will get a hat :-) But still the question remains - would a hat make such a significant difference when using the omnis? Or are the cards the only way to go in these big indoor arenas with poor acoustics?

In general if you are pretty close to the stacks then omnis ok but most people use cards indoors, they tend to cut down on the ambient noise in enclosed spaces, i personally on use cards or hypercards but thats just me

[Mr.Scully]

OK, I've contacted Chris Church, perhaps it's time to test his CA-14 cardioids :-)

[darktrain]

OK, I've contacted Chris Church, perhaps it's time to test his CA-14 cardioids :-)

the mics you have are actually very good and will do a nice job, but you need to get them up higher, trust me, been there, and i have used the mics you have as well, i don't think moving to the church mics will change anything(nothing against them)

[Church-Audio]

Hi guys,

for many years I was using the Sony ECM-719 mic which was great for capturing the overall "atmosphere" (the recording had enough bass and you felt like you were at the concert) but the sound wasn't so clear so I was looking for replacement here in this forum. At first I looked at the Church Audio mics but I didn't like the sound samples in the archive, the sound wasn't clear either. Then I found Sound Professionals and bought equipment from them - SP-SPSB-8 battery box and SP-CMC-8 (ES943) cardioids (I bought the omnis as well) + Edirol R-09HR. The sound from the cardiods is clean (and great for folk, classical and other styles of music I don't listen to) BUT lacks power, bass... it's okay but it just doesn't feel right. (I also tried the omnis once but the recording was distorted although I'm quite sure I used the battery box). And that's even though I'm always using the battery box with bass roll off switched off.

So here I am again... searching for new mics :-) They have to be small (stealth), preferably cardioids (to avoid capturing all that audience noise) and must sound "powerful". Is there anything you can recommend to me? I usually record loud rock/punk shows (mostly indoors) and I definitely don't want to pay more than $400 (the less the better, of course).

I also remember one sentence that somebody told me a few years ago: "Phantom power is the absolute best and only way to go." Does it just avoid clipping and overloading OR can it improve the sound itself as well?

Thanks

You will hear good samples of recordings and bad ones. You can say the same thing about any mic. Like I said before placement sound at the venue will be the biggest factors in getting a good recording.

Chris

[hi and lo]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

As Darktrain points out, different gear will not help as this is your biggest problem. Your  tapes will continue to disappoint until you get over this fear and while I know it's a hard thing to do, I assure you that very rarely is security in-tune enough to identify any giveaways you might be displaying. There are many ways to be discrete and have your microphones at shoulder level or higher; if this can't be accomplished then my personal opinion is that you should simply leave the mics at home and enjoy the show.

Your samples sound exactly as expected. The Omni's needed some roll-off while the cardioids are simply suffering from distant seats and poor body placement. I don't see a pair of CA-14's sounding any different.

[acidjack]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

As Darktrain points out, different gear will not help as this is your biggest problem. Your  tapes will continue to disappoint until you get over this fear and while I know it's a hard thing to do, I assure you that very rarely is security in-tune enough to identify any giveaways you might be displaying. There are many ways to be discrete and have your microphones at shoulder level or higher; if this can't be accomplished then my personal opinion is that you should simply leave the mics at home and enjoy the show.

Your samples sound exactly as expected. The Omni's needed some roll-off while the cardioids are simply suffering from distant seats and poor body placement. I don't see a pair of CA-14's sounding any different.

x2  This is the reality of taping.  As in a lot of things, there actually aren't compromises if you want to do it right.  Either a) ask bands for permission (you'd be surprised how many will do it, even if they aren't "jam bands") or b) get over the fear and take the risk.  You could put some $3500 mics on but place them poorly and it won't be any better.

[adrianf74]

x2  This is the reality of taping.  As in a lot of things, there actually aren't compromises if you want to do it right.  Either a) ask bands for permission (you'd be surprised how many will do it, even if they aren't "jam bands") or b) get over the fear and take the risk.  You could put some $3500 mics on but place them poorly and it won't be any better.

Exactly.  The best sounding mics located in the worst-sounding spot in a venue will sound terrible.  There is a lot of trial and error involved.  The CA-14 cards sound as good as any card upto about 3-4x its price and it's relatively small considering.  I still use it because there is nothing that comes close in size and or ease of use (battery box/small preamp only) but only when I can't get close enough to the stacks (larger clubs, arenas, amphitheatres, etc.).  You won't be disappointed in trying them out.  The CA-14 omnis are also excellent value for the money.  I only upgraded to a pair of 4061's because the price was right (and they're a lot smaller).

[fandelive]

Cards are equally as great in said situations and reject more of the negatives that show up with omnis'
IE Crowd, or shitty room sound.
My point being you would use cards in a number of more situations than you would omnis. Shitty sounding rooms
rowdy crowds

What he said.
I'd only use omnis as a second gear (run by a second taper from a different spot in the venue) to do a matrix in post and add some more of the bass the cards lack of.
I attended a very shitty sounding concert yesterday (from my spot at least - balcony !!!). Couldn't hear the singer most of the time, guitars were too loud in the mix and the bass reverb was predominent.
Thank God, I used cardiods so that my recording doesn't sound natural

As for your Rammstein samples, Soundprofessionals are selling the same capsules in both low and high sensivity mod.
Check yours. You have to use low sensivity mics to record loud hard rock shows.

[F.O.Bean]

I havent stealthed in a LONG TIME, but even when I didnt have longass hair, I would wear a hoodie indoors/outdoors if the weather was kinda cold outside. You just have to be creative. If your FOB/DFC, I have rarely EVER seen security up that close in a crowd At least for me thats what worked!

[Mr.Scully]

Does anybody sell hat/cap mounts for reasonable prices? I've seen SoundProfessionals offering that but $47 incl. postage is quite a lot for a baseball cap. And sadly I'm an IT guy so creating anything with my own hands takes ages and I'd need at least five attempts (= destroyed caps) before I'd create something at least remotely useful 

[F.O.Bean]

search for Kangol hats

[fandelive]

I'm an IT guy so creating anything with my own hands takes ages and I'd need at least five attempts (= destroyed caps) before I'd create something at least remotely useful 

Ask your mum (not kidding) 
You have a PM.

[Mr.Scully]

search for Kangol hats

Any tips in which of their models I wouldn't look dumb? I'm a tall 32-year-old guy with a big head 

fandelive - thanks for the PM, I will try to create something like that

[fandelive]

I'm a tall 32-year-old guy with a big head 

That's pretty cool to rise the mics up above the crowd and get a good stereo separation 

[fmaderjr]

Does anybody sell hat/cap mounts for reasonable prices? I've seen SoundProfessionals offering that but $47 incl. postage is quite a lot for a baseball cap. And sadly I'm an IT guy so creating anything with my own hands takes ages and I'd need at least five attempts (= destroyed caps) before I'd create something at least remotely useful 

I hate that SP hat. Except when using omnis, you can't have the mics flush against the surface of the hat (or the vents would be obstructed) so the mics are visible like little horns sticking out of the hat.

Get something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-KANGOL-Tropic-Ventair-504-Ivy-Cap-/380264989220?pt=US_Hats&var=&hash=item9757698c69
and position the mics inside the part of the liner that folds up. If using cards, you can position them near the back of your head so they will be angled apart a bit for better stereo separation. For omnis, above the temples is good.

[acidjack]

Does anybody sell hat/cap mounts for reasonable prices? I've seen SoundProfessionals offering that but $47 incl. postage is quite a lot for a baseball cap. And sadly I'm an IT guy so creating anything with my own hands takes ages and I'd need at least five attempts (= destroyed caps) before I'd create something at least remotely useful 

I hate that SP hat. Except when using omnis, you can't have the mics flush against the surface of the hat (or the vents would be obstructed) so the mics are visible like little horns sticking out of the hat.

Get something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-KANGOL-Tropic-Ventair-504-Ivy-Cap-/380264989220?pt=US_Hats&var=&hash=item9757698c69
and position the mics inside the part of the liner that folds up. If using cards, you can position them near the back of your head so they will be angled apart a bit for better stereo separation. For omnis, above the temples is good.

True. That SP hat is great for omnis, but useless for everything else.

[Mr.Scully]

OK, I got the CA-14 from Chris Church yesterday (the deal was not so sweet as I had to pay custom tax) and did a brief test. I recorded two Slovakian punk bands from a VERY BAD spot as I was in the photopit - basically right at the stage but couldn't hear properly neither the stage speakers, neither the big venue speakers. But both were punk bands, I had the same position and roughly the overall conditions were very similar.

I did some very brief postprocessing (same in both cases - basically increasing the treble and lowering bass as the first versions of the recording sounded bad), here are the results and my opinion:

SP-CMC-8 cardioids + battery box (line-in input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/tesths.flac
- overall more treble, slightly clearer sound, lack of bass

CA-14 cardioids (no battery box, directly mic input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/testik.flac
- less clarity but more natural sound, more bass

I know this is a very amateur test and the results can't be compared but I think these mics are very similar in terms of overall performance. At the moment I'm not convinced which one is better but I'm definitely looking forward to taking my CA-14 to some proper concert where I'd be standing at the "sweet spot".

[fmaderjr]

CA-14 cardioids (no battery box, directly mic input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/testik.flac
- less clarity but more natural sound, more bass

CA-14's are not designed to run mic in without a battery box (unless you ordered a 2.2 ohm resistor version which I know he offered on CA-11's). Although Chris doesn't recommend it, you might do OK mic in with a recorder that puts out 4.5 volts of plug in power like a Marantz PMD-620.

You should get more clarity and reduce the chance of distortion with a battery box.

IMO CA-14's are far superior to SP-CMC-8 cards, which are noted for poor bass.

[Mr.Scully]

CA-14 cardioids (no battery box, directly mic input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/testik.flac
- less clarity but more natural sound, more bass

CA-14's are not designed to run mic in without a battery box (unless you ordered a 2.2 ohm resistor version which I know he offered on CA-11's). Although Chris doesn't recommend it, you up might do OK mic in with a recorder that puts out 4.5 volts of plug in power like a Marantz PMD-620.

You should get more clarity and reduce the chance of distortion with a battery box.

IMO CA-14's are far superior to SP-CMC-8 cards, which are noted for poor bass.

Yes, I just didn't have any battery for Chris' battery box (his equipment arrived yesterday afternoon) so I decided to risk it without the battery box and there was still no distortion at all, it seems the cardioids usually don't have a problem with that.

Any idea if there are any differences between the Sound Professionals battery box and the one from Chris Church? Of course, the one from SP can be set to limit different frequencies so it's more versatile but overall they have the same purpose and doesn't matter which one I use, right?

[darktrain]

CA-14 cardioids (no battery box, directly mic input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/testik.flac
- less clarity but more natural sound, more bass

CA-14's are not designed to run mic in without a battery box (unless you ordered a 2.2 ohm resistor version which I know he offered on CA-11's). Although Chris doesn't recommend it, you up might do OK mic in with a recorder that puts out 4.5 volts of plug in power like a Marantz PMD-620.

You should get more clarity and reduce the chance of distortion with a battery box.

IMO CA-14's are far superior to SP-CMC-8 cards, which are noted for poor bass.

Yes, I just didn't have any battery for Chris' battery box (his equipment arrived yesterday afternoon) so I decided to risk it without the battery box and there was still no distortion at all, it seems the cardioids usually don't have a problem with that.

Any idea if there are any differences between the Sound Professionals battery box and the one from Chris Church? Of course, the one from SP can be set to limit different frequencies so it's more versatile but overall they have the same purpose and doesn't matter which one I use, right?

When using Cards most people here would agree to never use any of the bass roll off features on the sp boxes, besides there size they are battery boxes and just supply power to the mics

[waltmon]

2 questions...

   I'm about to jump into stealthing....with the CA-14's will they need to be modded for loud shows (ie: Staind, Social Distortion) I'm going to got with the 9200>hp120...I may go with the MM seinheiser cards though.

2nd...with the Kangol.  Do you where it backwards..aka: Samuel S, Jackson Motherf*cker style...emblem forward?


Thanks.

[Church-Audio]

CA-14 cardioids (no battery box, directly mic input)
Sample: http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/mics/testik.flac
- less clarity but more natural sound, more bass

CA-14's are not designed to run mic in without a battery box (unless you ordered a 2.2 ohm resistor version which I know he offered on CA-11's). Although Chris doesn't recommend it, you up might do OK mic in with a recorder that puts out 4.5 volts of plug in power like a Marantz PMD-620.

You should get more clarity and reduce the chance of distortion with a battery box.

IMO CA-14's are far superior to SP-CMC-8 cards, which are noted for poor bass.

Yes, I just didn't have any battery for Chris' battery box (his equipment arrived yesterday afternoon) so I decided to risk it without the battery box and there was still no distortion at all, it seems the cardioids usually don't have a problem with that.

Any idea if there are any differences between the Sound Professionals battery box and the one from Chris Church? Of course, the one from SP can be set to limit different frequencies so it's more versatile but overall they have the same purpose and doesn't matter which one I use, right?

The parts inside my bb are the highest quality. And you DO NOT need bass roll off anyway it was just someones idea of reducing distortion it does not do that at all. If you have too much bass hats one thing but for reduction of distortion its useless. So I would stick to my battery box. Since you already own it anyway.

[adrianf74]

OK, I got the CA-14 from Chris Church yesterday (the deal was not so sweet as I had to pay custom tax) and did a brief test. I recorded two Slovakian punk bands from a VERY BAD spot as I was in the photopit - basically right at the stage but couldn't hear properly neither the stage speakers, neither the big venue speakers. But both were punk bands, I had the same position and roughly the overall conditions were very similar.

Unfortunately customs tax/duty are a necessary evil that most of us can't avoid.  As I also live in Canada, I had to pay 13% tax on the full order I made recently but that's just the way it goes.

Back to your mics... I would find it very odd that the CMC-8's would sound "more clear" than the CA-14's and since you didn't power the CA-14's properly, that could add to your lack of clarity.  I've owned both mics and the CA-14's do a MUCH BETTER job than the CMC-8's ever could image doing.   Regardless, standing in the photo pit and running mics that pic up audio "in the distance" equates to a "hot mess" of a recording in my mind.  I'm guessing the club you were at was rather small.  From where you were, omni mics might have been a better choice although you weren't really in the path of any mixed sound and that recording with omnis wouldn't have fared much better.

That said, if you're going to run cardioid mics, I suggest you try and stand back a bit (perhaps closer to the venue's sweetspot which is usually at or close to the soundboard area.   Your results might be better without much mucking around.  Another thing is to *NEVER* run bass roll off (high pass filter) on cardioid mics as there is no need.   Hope this helps.

[terabyte23]

I would find it very odd that the CMC-8's would sound "more clear" than the CA-14's

I see you keep writing this sort of thing across different threads (including my WTB thread).  Do you also find it "very odd" that one person's perception of sound can differ from another person's?  Or that their taste in audio can simply differ?

In testing I've done with the CMC-8 cards vs. the CA-14 cards (yes I own both), I have found the same thing as the original poster.  But rather than saying it's "very odd" that the CA-14's don't sound more clear (for example), I attribute it to my perception of the sound and my individual taste.

I've owned both mics and the CA-14's do a MUCH BETTER job than the CMC-8's ever could image doing.
I've owned both mics and in my opinion the CA-14's did a MUCH BETTER job than the CMC-8's in my recording environments.

There, FTFY.

[Mr.Scully]

adrianf74 - being in the photo pit (as the "official photographer" of the show) in a small club (700 people) meant I had no choice Of course, if I decide to record anything properly, I will pick a much better position.

Anyway, back to my original question - if I don't use the bass roll off (which I usually don't), it means the battery box from SP is absolutely equal to the battery box from Chris Church? It's just that I happen to have both so I wonder if there's any difference or if both have exactly the same purpose and effect on the recording itself :-)

[Church-Audio]

adrianf74 - being in the photo pit (as the "official photographer" of the show) in a small club (700 people) meant I had no choice Of course, if I decide to record anything properly, I will pick a much better position.

Anyway, back to my original question - if I don't use the bass roll off (which I usually don't), it means the battery box from SP is absolutely equal to the battery box from Chris Church? It's just that I happen to have both so I wonder if there's any difference or if both have exactly the same purpose and effect on the recording itself :-)

If it uses coin cells I would not use the battery box. Coin cells are very unreliable if both use a standard 9v battery I would suspect outside of the higher quality parts there would be very little difference. Hope that answers the question.