This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder. This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:
http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix
This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:
http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16
I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week. The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.
The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.
1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..
I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.
Does the mix sound off to you? I think it sounds great. Do you prefer the audience recording in this case? I do not, not even close. I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic. This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it. My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.
I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....
Chris Church
You're still avoiding this particular situation. This was not Bon Jovi with a world class sound system in a large arena and a world class monitor engineer. This was a bunch of guys in a bar with the guitarist running the PA system which had one main mix and one monitor mix and only vocals in the PA.
In terms of your other three criteria:
1. I was not hired by the band and they did not adjust their on stage amp volume to suit my recording.
2. The mics were placed where I wanted, but I certainly did not rearrange where the musicians were.
3. There were vocals.
All three conditions were not met, yet I came away with a terrific recording. Your assertation of 95% is laughable. I have run these types of mixes a lot. My experience has been that about 2/3 sound great and 1/3 are not usable. Here are some other examples on the LMA that I did the same way:
http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-01-13-Matrixhttp://www.archive.org/details/jbox2006-04-28-MatrixThis is one where the drums came out too loud. This is about the limit of bad mix that I will tolerate and still spread:
http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-02-10-MatrixAnything worse than that will be deleted and forgotten.
There's no way in hell a straight audience recording of any of these gigs would have come even close to the quality of the stage lip recording (even in the case of the one where the mix is a little off). These are also done in venues where there was no soundman much less a monitor engineer, the PA mix was done on-stage by the musicians, and there were only vocal mics (with vocals and horns played through the vocal mics in the case of the Blue Method) or vocal mics plus a touch of kick drum in the SBD part of the feed.
These are not jazz or country or accoustic. What say you?