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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: acidjack on June 04, 2013, 12:50:30 PM
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I read the old Blumlein thread here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=110861.0 but thought a new topic might be in order.
It would seem that in principle, in a completely open-air setting Blumlein could be quite ideal, for many of the reasons people seem to like outdoor omnis. Thoughts?
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I don't own Fig8 mics (and never have), so I have no experience with them.
But directional mics are more prone to wind noise, and the more directional, the worse (theoretically speaking) wind noise can be. Omni mics are thus much less prone to wind noise, and on that basis are good for outdoor recording, and Fig8 mics would be the worst.
Given what happens to cardioids at Red Rocks, I don't even run supercards there -- can't imagine how bad fig8 mics might be.
Obviously there are other things to consider, but this might be the biggest issue.
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It can work well in some situations. Here's a few:
http://archive.org/details/rre2005-08-20.flac16
http://archive.org/details/rre2005-08-19.lsd2.flac16
http://archive.org/details/sci2005-07-22.lsd2.flac24
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My favorite pattern to run to be honest. I think the AKG 414s shine in this configuration.
You want to be center and you want to be FOB if possible. I have had mixed results running it from the section. The pattern is good in the wind but will suffer phasing issues. This tends to be the biggest issue IMHO.
The rear lobes will pick up noise etc so also good to run higher than head height etc
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The pattern is good in the wind but will suffer phasing issues. This tends to be the biggest issue IMHO.
This.
I've done it before and my only real regret was with that. Midside outdoors can fall susceptible to a similar issue.
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I read the old Blumlein thread here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=110861.0 but thought a new topic might be in order.
It would seem that in principle, in a completely open-air setting Blumlein could be quite ideal, for many of the reasons people seem to like outdoor omnis. Thoughts?
My only concern is the normal roll off that Blumlein has.... When done indoors the proximity affect compensates for the roll off in bass making the music sound fuller. However, outdoors where the sound doesn't build up I would think you would have less bass. This would be true more for the further back you are. Closer to the stage you may be able to get away with it....
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Works well if you are in a good position in a good sounding venue and can manage the wind.
A couple obvious and non-obvious things (or perhaps not):
Obvious- Significant differences between Blumlien 8's and spaced omnis in the nature of the stereo imaging and the significant rolloff of the bottom octave or two with 8's in comparison to the extended flat low end response of omnis.
Not obvious- I find envelopment and openness to be somewhat similar between spaced omnis and Blumlein; much more so than between either of those and configurations. Probably due to both providing equal pickup of sound from all horizontal directions and reduced signal correlation between channels for the reverberant sound from all directions.
Obvious- Potential for wind noise problems as figure 8 is the pattern most susceptible to handling/wind-noise.
Not obvious- I find a great advantage of 8’s over all other patterns (omnis especially, other patterns, somewhat less so) when used for AUD recordings is reduced level of pickup of nearby crowd noise immediately surrounding the recording position. There is no other stereo configuration that does a better job of suppressing the pickup of sound originating directly underneath and surrounding the mics. The nulls of both 8’s are aligned in the vertical axis, pointing directly up and down. Up to a ~45 degree angle away from vertical, 8’s are still significantly less sensitive than other patterns and that reduced sensitivity is symmetrical in a cone all the way around the mic stand, not just to the rear. More distant crowd noise will be picked up with equal sensitivity from all directions like omnis, but the close, in-your face, especially annoying offenders are maximally suppressed, more than all other mic choices. That also makes the crowd reaction sound more even, more balanced and generally 'farther away' sounding than other AUDs from the same spot. Obviously the mics must be higher than head-height, but as long as it’s reasonably high enough it can be lower than any other mic pattern for all around sound. With the mics at 8-9’ high the near crowd sounds more like cardioids at 12’, at least for sound to the sides and front, and omnis at maybe 15’.
One other thing- You needn’t orient the mics at exactly 90 degrees, though most of the time that would be the obvious choice. I can’t think of a common situation in which you’d want to go to a wider angle, but several good reasons for going narrower.*
Less angle between mics can be advantageous for a few reasons:
1) Produces a recording angle (SRA) which is wider than 90 degrees (Stereo Zoom stuff)
2) Solidifies the center of the image (sometimes Blumlein can get a 'soft spot' if not a full-on hole in the middle, even if only in comparison to typical cardioid setups which are often quite mono-heavy)
3) Begins to make the configuration less sensitive to sources directly to the sides, helpful if there is a bad reflection or sound source to be minimized directly to either side, but no problems to the rear and you want to run Blumlein.
*Actually I just thought of one application where going wider than 90 degrees would make sense, and that’s on-stage, directly in front of an over-loud source, like a guitar amp or a close drum kit setup center stage. In that case going wider would lower the sensitivity of pickup for that central source in comparison to sources arranged off to either side to help balance things in terms of level, and also do something to manage high-velocity kick whump air blasts.
That angle adjustment is identical to making a Mid/Side adjustment, so in many cases (excluding kick-whump protection) maybe that’s the best way to approach it, dialing things in after the fact. Blumlein is the only Mid/Side 2-channel pair that doesn’t alter the individual pickup patterns when the M/S ratio is readjusted, only the combined pattern changes. All Mid = a single forward facing 8, all Side = a single side facing 8, other ratios just rotate the two 8’s between those extremes, each mic pattern remaining 8 shaped.
Edit- Just followed the link posted to the earlier thread and had almost forgotten about that one. So apologies for rehashing some of what I posted previously over there.
and thanks for the reminder, I still want to hear this-
No discussion of Blumlein can be complete without mentioning the Kentucky Colonel's Appalachian Swing!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61AR6Z5A4HL._SS500_.jpg)
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It can work well in some situations. Here's a few:
http://archive.org/details/rre2005-08-20.flac16
http://archive.org/details/rre2005-08-19.lsd2.flac16
http://archive.org/details/sci2005-07-22.lsd2.flac24
Semi-thread-related, here's a comp to Craig T's Blumlein recording. I was clamped to his stand... http://archive.org/details/rre2005-08-20.mk4.v3.flac16
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A few years back:
I ran the Busman Modded Burgin powder-coated black LSD2 ( I Like to call the LSD 2.5) about 25 feet from stage in a wide Blumlein at about 110° at the Pickathon, for the Bad Livers outdoors main stage.
I totally enjoy the natual sound and when the music is present that was dominant but between songs the crowd was "naturally" mixed in and you when listening feel like you are there in the super sweet spot!
I need to master that one....
I really want a pair of the Milab DC-196's and got a great quote on a pair, but I am saving funds for another family purchase....
--Ian
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My only concern is the normal roll off that Blumlein has.... When done indoors the proximity affect compensates for the roll off in bass making the music sound fuller. However, outdoors where the sound doesn't build up I would think you would have less bass. This would be true more for the further back you are. Closer to the stage you may be able to get away with it....
Our TetraMic's output can be decoded as a Blumlein array and has no low end roll-off. It's probably the finest Blumlein array setup that's available. It's also a lot flatter in frequency response than a C414.
It can be run with a Rycote blimp system or one of their Baby Ball Gags. Wind doesn't have much effect on either.
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Len's Tetramic works very well for Blumlien. I like using it relatively close. The ability to point it in any direction after the recording has been made, including up/down, and vary mic pattern at will to patterns more directional than 8's is fantastic. It's response down to 25Hz or so does increase it's sensitivity to wind-noise, so it needs to be well windscreened outdoors. I just pulled mine out a couple weeks ago for a sidewalk jazz quartet set that I had no forwarning on how the band would be setup so I needed something small and flexible and was reminded why I really dig it for that kind of thing. The recording position wasn't optimal for good imaging in the ORTF pair I ran concurrently into the DR-680, but the Tetramic on the same short stand could be dialed in to compensate for that position which was great for direct/reverberant balance and instrument timbre of all four player but less than optimal for stereo imaging. Cool tool.
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checking in.
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Edit- Just followed the link posted to the earlier thread and had almost forgotten about that one. So apologies for rehashing some of what I posted previously over there.
and thanks for the reminder, I still want to hear this-
No discussion of Blumlein can be complete without mentioning the Kentucky Colonel's Appalachian Swing!
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61AR6Z5A4HL._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kentucky-Colonels-Appalachian-Swing-Clarence-White-/221241459369?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item338304c2a9
$35 on fleabay, but the guy has several copies? Also, there appears to be an abridged re-issue released (also on vinyl) at a later date - clearly noted in liners (see $25 fleabay version). I have a new garage/estate/junk sale item to look for.