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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: rigpimp on February 26, 2018, 12:21:37 PM
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OK, I switched from my Schoeps A-20s (since it was flopping or listing under the weight was multiple mics) to the Rycote InVision INV-HG mkIII which I purchased from B&H. I think this thing is too stiff for my use.
The last two shows that I recorded have mild audible thumps. The first was in a balcony and my stand was up against the wall/rail. It was far enough away from people but someone tapping their foot on the wall caused thumps. I think that a good shockmount should prevent this.
Then, on Friday night I had my stand up on a wooden cabinet in the back of the room. I taped the stand down as I normally would and sure enough some old lady plopped her fat ass on the cabinet right next to my stuff. You can hear thumps, (the same sound as the example above) as she mounts, moves around, or dismounts the cabinet.
These thumps are new since switching mounts. Is there a lyre that is less stiff? I think that I need one that is a touch softer material. I seem to recall a video where they made different lyres with different "shores" or stiffness.
Edit: Just answered my own question. Now to determine which one my mount came with...
From: http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/modular-lyre-upgrades/pair-of-single-lyre-62-19_25-with-modular-adaptor-screws/
The different hardness' can be easily identified by their new colour combinations. The lower the number, the softer the Shore hardness. So 62 shore is softer that 72 shore, and 82 shore is the stiffest we make. Shore Hardness Colour Combination 62 shore Black rigid part & Black Soft-grip 72 shore Black rigid part & Grey Soft-grip 82 shore Light Grey rigid part & Black Soft-grip
Shore Hardness Colour Combination
62 shore Black rigid part & Black Soft-grip
72 shore Black rigid part & Grey Soft-grip
82 shore Light Grey rigid part & Black Soft-grip
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The INV-HG mkIII comes standard with a 68-shore Duo-Lyre. But this is actually much more stiff than you would expect for that shore rating because of increased stiffness in certain areas compared to the separate Lyres such as those used in the INV-6 and INV-7.
See this thread for excerpts of my correspondence with Simon Davies at Rycote where he explains:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990)
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The INV-HG mkIII comes standard with a 68-shore Duo-Lyre. But this is actually much more stiff than you would expect for that shore rating because of increased stiffness in certain areas compared to the separate Lyres such as those used in the INV-6 and INV-7.
See this thread for excerpts of my correspondence with Simon Davies at Rycote where he explains:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990)
Oh wow, I didn't even know that I had the dual lyre mount. LOL. I understand his explanation perfectly and it sounds like what I need is a pair of 62 shore single lyres. Thank you!
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The INV-HG mkIII comes standard with a 68-shore Duo-Lyre. But this is actually much more stiff than you would expect for that shore rating because of increased stiffness in certain areas compared to the separate Lyres such as those used in the INV-6 and INV-7.
See this thread for excerpts of my correspondence with Simon Davies at Rycote where he explains:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180990)
Oh wow, I didn't even know that I had the dual lyre mount. LOL. I understand his explanation perfectly and it sounds like what I need is a pair of 62 shore single lyres. Thank you!
Hold on. I'm looking at the mics in your signature, and for any of those, you definitely do NOT want the 62 shore lyres. I have those for my CM3s because they are so lightweight. The 62 are so compliant (floppy) though, that I can only use them for the individual mics, and only if the cables are well dressed. When using a stereo bar, I need the stiffer lyres. (I'm actually using the 68 INV-HG mkIII for that now, but as that's too far in the other direction, I'm going to swap it out for the 72 shore single lyres which should be perfect.)
For Schoeps or any "normal" pencil mics, I would say you want the 72 shore lyres, which are the ones that come standard on the INV-6 and INV-7 mounts. For a stereo bar of mics like yours, you might even need to go to the 82 single lyres though I have no direct experience with them. I believe Bean and a few others here use them for that purpose, so you could ask them, or email Rycote directly who as you have seen are very helpful.
The 72 lyres are in stock at Adorama right now (https://www.adorama.com/ry042271.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxJaSoo7F2QIV0IKzCh0CEwLwEAYYASABEgJyvfD_BwE), if you have a base to mount them to. They are a special order everywhere else I've looked. Otherwise, the complete INV-6 and INV-7 are in stock at all of the usual places.
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But, how does that address his concern that the mounts are not working as he expects and producing bump noises on the recording?
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Hold on. I'm looking at the mics in your signature, and for any of those, you definitely do NOT want the 62 shore lyres. I have those for my CM3s because they are so lightweight. The 62 are so compliant (floppy) though, that I can only use them for the individual mics, and only if the cables are well dressed. When using a stereo bar, I need the stiffer lyres. (I'm actually using the 68 INV-HG mkIII for that now, but as that's too far in the other direction, I'm going to swap it out for the 72 shore single lyres which should be perfect.)
For Schoeps or any "normal" pencil mics, I would say you want the 72 shore lyres, which are the ones that come standard on the INV-6 and INV-7 mounts. For a stereo bar of mics like yours, you might even need to go to the 82 single lyres though I have no direct experience with them. I believe Bean and a few others here use them for that purpose, so you could ask them, or email Rycote directly who as you have seen are very helpful.
The 72 lyres are in stock at Adorama right now (https://www.adorama.com/ry042271.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxJaSoo7F2QIV0IKzCh0CEwLwEAYYASABEgJyvfD_BwE), if you have a base to mount them to. They are a special order everywhere else I've looked. Otherwise, the complete INV-6 and INV-7 are in stock at all of the usual places.
Well, I have thumps so I have to change something. I record on stage with stomping, boot wearing, musicians too much to tolerate it. I suppose that I can go back to my floppy A20s. I did buy a brand new Rycote so I would prefer to make it work. I only run caps on actives and the custom dual pair mount I run from SRS is way lighter than I ever imagined it would be. I also use a Velcro strap or two as strain relief at the top of my stand. Always.
OK, looking at the text info the I posted in the OP and then the attached image I guess I am confused about what shore my current lyres are.
According to the text I pulled off of their website they are 72 since I have a black rigid part with the grey soft grip. (They are talking about the actual mic holder correct?) However, the attached image from Voltronic's thread from a year ago would indicate that they may be 68 since the lyres themselves are black and not grey.
FWIW, the text part that I found on their site was pulled off literally right after I posted so may be more current. ??? ???
Edit: This is the mount I run: https://www.shapeways.com/product/CXYZBM824/ms-ortf-schoeps-actives?optionId=63275660
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I think that the audible thumps are because your actives are only held up with Velcro ties IMO! I use the cable clip that comes on the INVHG mkiii shock, with the Nitize brand rubber ties, and that really helps isolate the mics from the shock and stand! When I recorded Lotus on NYE with my 4 channels of Schoeps and SRS mount, the stand was swaying back and forth a little bit due to people tapping on the rail and making noises, and I can't hear a single moment of that on either of my sources! I use the Nitize ties right below the Rycote cable clip/Clamp and I've not noticed a single audible thumps during any of my recordings.
I hope that helps you out in some way because IMO the INVHG mkiii shocks are the best made. Period.
And if those are too stiff for your needs, I'd look into the INV6's/INV7's with the grey Single lyres. But I owned those before I got my INVHG mkiii shocks, and I much prefer the INVHG mkiii's over the Inv6hg's (inv6 with grey Lyre's), especially for my SRS 4 channel Mounts!
As always, YMMV ;)
Here's a link to the Nitize ties too. I use the 6" or 12" one's at the top of my stand right below the Rycote cable clip, and then the 12" version at the bottom of my stand FWIW!
https://www.amazon.com/Nite-Ize-Original-Reusable-Rubber/dp/B004MMEHHO
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Oh and I have both the black duo lyre AND the grey duo lyre, and I can't really tell the difference personally, although the grey duo lyre is rated at a higher stiffness!
And they do make an all black Duo Lyre that's the least stiffest if the black with grey rubber grips is still too stiff for you!
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I think that the audible thumps are because your actives are only held up with Velcro ties IMO! I use the cable clip that comes on the INVHG mkiii shock, with the Nitize brand rubber ties, and that really helps isolate the mics from the shock and stand
Wow, I am looking at the pic on B&H now and I never even noticed the clip that is part of the mount. (of course since I have only used it twice now.)
Two days in a row that I learned something new about this shock mount. Thanks Bean!
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But, how does that address his concern that the mounts are not working as he expects and producing bump noises on the recording?
I'm trying to help him find the right balance between compliance (better isolation) and stiffness (better stability).
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Hold on. I'm looking at the mics in your signature, and for any of those, you definitely do NOT want the 62 shore lyres. I have those for my CM3s because they are so lightweight. The 62 are so compliant (floppy) though, that I can only use them for the individual mics, and only if the cables are well dressed. When using a stereo bar, I need the stiffer lyres. (I'm actually using the 68 INV-HG mkIII for that now, but as that's too far in the other direction, I'm going to swap it out for the 72 shore single lyres which should be perfect.)
For Schoeps or any "normal" pencil mics, I would say you want the 72 shore lyres, which are the ones that come standard on the INV-6 and INV-7 mounts. For a stereo bar of mics like yours, you might even need to go to the 82 single lyres though I have no direct experience with them. I believe Bean and a few others here use them for that purpose, so you could ask them, or email Rycote directly who as you have seen are very helpful.
The 72 lyres are in stock at Adorama right now (https://www.adorama.com/ry042271.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxJaSoo7F2QIV0IKzCh0CEwLwEAYYASABEgJyvfD_BwE), if you have a base to mount them to. They are a special order everywhere else I've looked. Otherwise, the complete INV-6 and INV-7 are in stock at all of the usual places.
Well, I have thumps so I have to change something. I record on stage with stomping, boot wearing, musicians too much to tolerate it. I suppose that I can go back to my floppy A20s. I did buy a brand new Rycote so I would prefer to make it work. I only run caps on actives and the custom dual pair mount I run from SRS is way lighter than I ever imagined it would be. I also use a Velcro strap or two as strain relief at the top of my stand. Always.
OK, looking at the text info the I posted in the OP and then the attached image I guess I am confused about what shore my current lyres are.
According to the text I pulled off of their website they are 72 since I have a black rigid part with the grey soft grip. (They are talking about the actual mic holder correct?) However, the attached image from Voltronic's thread from a year ago would indicate that they may be 68 since the lyres themselves are black and not grey.
FWIW, the text part that I found on their site was pulled off literally right after I posted so may be more current. ??? ???
Edit: This is the mount I run: https://www.shapeways.com/product/CXYZBM824/ms-ortf-schoeps-actives?optionId=63275660
OK, I didn't realize you were running all actives. If it was only one pair of actives mounted on a horizontal bar, the 62 shore single lyres might be OK (though I still find them too loose for my pair of CM3s on a SRS mount). What you're using will definitely NOT work out, especially in the vertical orientation. The 62 lyres allow for a TON of lateral deflection without much effort, and that combo mount is going to sag. If you have the 68 Duo-Lyre right now and it's not isolating well enough for you, I really think the 72 single lyres are the way to go. They are the next step in higher compliance / lower stiffness. Again, they come standard on the INV-6 and INV-7, or you can buy just the lyres from the Adorama link I posted.
FWIW, I don't agree with Bean that your problem is using Velcro ties, so long as your mic cables have proper strain relief. As long as that's taken care of you shouldn't have any transmitted vibration through the cable, regardless of what you're using to fasten the cable. The integrated clips on the INV mounts are definitely cool, but I prefer to tie off my cables a little further down. YMMV.
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Oh and I have both the black duo lyre AND the grey duo lyre, and I can't really tell the difference personally, although the grey duo lyre is rated at a higher stiffness!
And they do make an all black Duo Lyre that's the least stiffest if the black with grey rubber grips is still too stiff for you!
Bean, I think you're mistaken. They make a 68 and a 72 Duo-Lyre. There isn't a third one.
http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/lyre-for-stereo-suspension/duo-lyre-68-19_34-with-stereo-risers/ (http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/lyre-for-stereo-suspension/duo-lyre-68-19_34-with-stereo-risers/)
This text from that page is a bit misleading, as it only applies to the single Lyres; not the Duo-Lyres. The only all-black Lyres are the super-soft 62 single lyres.
Shore Hardness Colour Combination
62 shore Black rigid part & Black Soft-grip
72 shore Black rigid part & Grey Soft-grip
82 shore Light Grey rigid part & Black Soft-grip
To be fair, the image on the Rycote site isn't quite true to real life. The 68 Duo-Lyre that looks all-black in the rendering is actually light grey in the inner mic clip. B&H has an actual photo:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1054451-REG/rycote_40138_model_duo_lyre_68_19_34.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1054451-REG/rycote_40138_model_duo_lyre_68_19_34.html)
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Oh and I have both the black duo lyre AND the grey duo lyre, and I can't really tell the difference personally, although the grey duo lyre is rated at a higher stiffness!
And they do make an all black Duo Lyre that's the least stiffest if the black with grey rubber grips is still too stiff for you!
Bean, I think you're mistaken. They make a 68 and a 72 Duo-Lyre. There isn't a third one.
http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/lyre-for-stereo-suspension/duo-lyre-68-19_34-with-stereo-risers/ (http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/lyre-for-stereo-suspension/duo-lyre-68-19_34-with-stereo-risers/)
This text from that page is a bit misleading, as it only applies to the single Lyres; not the Duo-Lyres. The only all-black Lyres are the super-soft 62 single lyres.
Shore Hardness Colour Combination
62 shore Black rigid part & Black Soft-grip
72 shore Black rigid part & Grey Soft-grip
82 shore Light Grey rigid part & Black Soft-grip
To be fair, the image on the Rycote site isn't quite true to real life. The 68 Duo-Lyre that looks all-black in the rendering is actually light grey in the inner mic clip. B&H has an actual photo:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1054451-REG/rycote_40138_model_duo_lyre_68_19_34.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1054451-REG/rycote_40138_model_duo_lyre_68_19_34.html)
Yep, my bad! Thanks for the clarification! I was totally thinking of the three separate Single Lyre's!
I'd love to know if this problem persists in the future, if you're using something a bit stronger than Velcro ties! I've also used just Velcro ties in the past without the issues that he's having too, but I was just trying to pinpoint the problem!
Let us know if things change if and when you use the Rycote cable clip and the Nitize brand rubber ties!
Happy Taping!