Topic: Cardioid vs omni physical size

[tapeheadtoo]

My two current sets of mics are SP-CMC-8 cards (which I believe are the same as AT943 but I could be wrong) and DPA 4061 omnis.  The SP cards, while small, are not as small as the DPAs which are pretty tiny.  Are there any cardioid mics out there that are as small as the DPAs?  There don't seem to be, though I would love to be enlightened.  I've wondered this for a while.  Is there some inherent structural limitation where cardioid mics cannot be as miniaturized as omnis?

As an aside I do have MK4s but haven't used them in years as they're way too bulky for me, plus my tinybox is broken.

[Melanie]

DPA cardioid 4080s are just as tiny, Pricey though. Has very similar response to Schoeps ccm 4vs when run side by side  imo. Also sounds somewhat similar to my Nak 701s in quality. All three mic sets have close frequency responses. All mic comments are our own opinions, others may differ. 4080s are go to mics for stealth situations for us. Bob and Melanie

[Gutbucket]

Most miniature cardioids will be about the size of your SP's.  The DPA miniature directionals that Melanie mentions and uses are smaller and same size as the DPA miniature omnis.. or at least they can be..

DPA makes a couple of miniature cardioids that use microphone capsules which are the same size as the DPA miniature omnis.  The 4080 is a cardioid lavalier and 4099 is a cardioid intended for instrument mounting.  Both of those are housed in a built-in shock-mount and windscreen which increases the size to about the same as your SPs.  The 4080 shock-mount is attached to a built in lapel clip.  The 4099 shock-mount is attached at a right angle to the end of a short gooseneck with a micro-dot connector and clip at the other end specific to the instrument it is intended to be mounted on.  I assume tapers using either of these may be removing the 4061-sized mic capsule from the shock mount and windscreen, in which case the mic itself will be is the same size as the omnis.   I think both those mics use a short interference tube grid about an inch long which takes the place of the (shorter) low-boot and high-boost-grids used on the omnis.

Bob/Melanie is that how you are using your 4080s?

I use DPA 4097H which was marketed as podium/hanging choir mic with a super/hypercardioid pattern when I picked them up a number of years ago. 4097 uses a longer ~2" interference tube grid, however the shorter 4080/4099 grid, no grid, or the low/high boost grids from the omnis can be substituted on any of these capsules.  4097 is mounted "axially in-line" directly to the end of a short gooseneck, rather than at a right angle like the instrument mics, without a built-in shock-mount.  The microdot connection is at the end of the short gooseneck and an extension microdot cable is needed from there to the recorder, same as 4099.  The "in-line with the gooseneck" arrangement is more stealth friendly than having the mic at a right angle at the end of the gooseneck (without modification) and I like that the cable past the short gooseneck is removable/interchangeable.  That said, I think once 4080 has been removed from its shockmount/clip it just has a straight built-in cable like the omnis, so will be more familiar in that way (Bob/Melanie please confirm).

I don't actually use 4097 for stealth myself but in my open rig, where the gooseneck is handy to point them as needed.  Not sure if the 4097H I have are still available, but I see DPA currently lists 4097 and 4098 podium and gooseneck mics which are probably the same just with various tube/gooseneck configuration - some inline, others at right angle, some with extension tubes, feet, etc.

Sensitivity differences:
4080 sensitivity is 20 mV/Pa; -34 dB re. 1 V/Pa (same as 4060)
4099 sensitivity is 6 mV/Pa; -44 dB re. 1 V/Pa (same as 4061)
4097 sensitivity is 16 mV/Pa; -36 dB re. 1 V/Pa (closer to 4060)
^
In use, the sensitivity matching between these and the omnis works out a bit differently than by the numbers.  I run both 4061 and 4097 in my open rig.  When used for concert recording with equal gain applied the resulting levels end up being similar from both despite the significant difference in sensitivity, due to the typical in room frequency curve at a concert having significantly more low than high frequency energy, in combination with the less sensitive omnis providing increased low frequency response and extension as compared the the more sensitive directional mics.

4080 photo-


4099 photo-


4097 photo-


[photos an specs from the DPA website]

[Melanie]

Gutbucket, yes we use them either clipped to cap for stealth or clipped to plastic L bracket cut from old cassette case taped to lip of balcony in most cases. We have the clip on lavalier type. The perfect stealth microphone. Has worked well for us, I was prepared to stealth for Dawg's 80th birthday show but Ed Griffin and Sam Grisman made sure we had no problems at door so I set up Melanie's schoeps ccm4vs with a clamp just under lip of balcony using schoeps preamp, John (down to earth landscaping) used an array next to my mics, but ran 4080s as a backup into battery box into Sony A10 on top of balcony lip. Melanie got a pair of tickets in the front row on floor, but enjoyed the show with one of her girlfriends and left recording to me. Great show. Bob

[capnhook]

I was prepared to stealth for Dawg's 80th birthday show but Ed Griffin and Sam Grisman made sure we had no problems at door ...Great show. Bob

Glad to know Ed hooked you up, Bob

Soundman extraordinaire and always kind to tapers 

[Gutbucket]

Right on, thanks Bob!

[Melanie]

I was prepared to stealth for Dawg's 80th birthday show but Ed Griffin and Sam Grisman made sure we had no problems at door ...Great show. Bob

Glad to know Ed hooked you up, Bob

Soundman extraordinaire and always kind to tapers 

When we texted after I gave him a rundown of the show and thanked him again he asked if he could get a copy! I assured him I would hand him thumb drive with 24/48 file, CDr copies of equalized and reduced Audience applause (meters were absolutely pegged at the end of each song), didn't mess with the numbnuts applauding during songs as didn't want to squash musical transitions after solos(and there were a LOT of solos) on the CDrs. We are seeing Sam Grisman Project with Peter Rowan twice in mid April so I've got to get to work on post production. Also giving him (for Sam) my recording of David Grisman 28 years before this last show in the same theater same seats but with Nak 701s and a much more respectful crowd,. It was a different time for sure. Speaking of sharing Joe Craven introduced the show, pointedly  asked audience to hold applause until end of songs. Sam Grisman opened the show, 1st thing he did was to ask people to please do not talk during songs, go to the back if you need to have a conversation. The three guys behind me started to talk during the 2nd song, I turned and said, " What part of what Sam said at the beginning of show about not talking during songs did you not fucking understand? They shut up, with a shoeps pre amp gaffer taped to wide lip of balcony and John's gear taped next to mine it was obvious we were recording. The guy next to them talked further into the set, I shot him a dirty look and he seemed to quiet down although continued to whoop, Whistle and clap loudly during songs. Mind you, our mics were ten ft. away center of balcony under the lip. During set break he comes down and asks about "sharing the recording with him". Any one who knows me can predict what happened next. I told him I share recording with folks, but he would be the last person in the room I would share recordings with, and asked him what part of what Joe and Sam said did he not fucking understand. He replied "everyone is doing what you are complaining about" I told him that yes a minority of idiots were disrespecting the artists and  audience but far from everyone, maybe 10 or 20 % . He told me I was a"cranky old man", at that point the gloves were off, I told him he was a drunken asshole amongst other choice words. He really got pissed off and threatened to get security and "get me thrown out" and pointed to all our gear. I said good luck with that, asshole we have permission.  He then said he would scream all night, I said good. the people around you will think you're an asshole ,too. He was better behaved  in the 2nd set but wolf whistled occasionally. I believe the effect on recording was minimal at worst  considering mic placement. Loud conversation went on for a good 3 to 5 minutes with him getting tired of me laughing and cussing him out. I think the woman he was with was not happy and told him to cool it. The funny part, When John came back just in time to restart gear he was surprised and said both rigs were running during set breaks. I laughed out loud and told him the story and said "i've got to get your copy to hear the whole deal!" After the show someone 5 rows back thanked me for recording , said he saw the mics and was quiet, never asked for a copy.
fortunatly assholes are still in the minority or our passion for recording would be near impossible. In April I'll have board feeds but will still run the Schoeps. Ed's feeds are so good that I don't even listen to the audience recordings, but the Shedd in Eugene has a very respectful crowd and great acoustics so I'll listen to that one vs, the Aladdin in Portland, last time Sam politely asked folks to be quiet at least 4 times, but a sizable amount continued their rude behavior. Board tape was a blessing. Once again, all props and respect to Ed, best sounding board I've ever heard in almost 50 years of recording as well as being such a friend to us all. Bob

[tapeheadtoo]

Gutbucket--thank you for your detailed writeup and photos, and Bob and Melanie, for your input as well.  Given the info you've provided I'm thinking of looking into a pair of 4080s... removing them from the shockmount/clips and windscreens and using them like my 4061s.

Application: I often stealth record from the front row.  Obviously this has many drawbacks but for certain artists being in the front row outweighs them for me.  When I use the 4061 omnis, the further off to the side I am the more unbalanced the recording soundstage becomes (not sure that's the correct term but you know what I mean).  It's better with the SP cardioids but they are not as stealthy.  For the past few years I've been using a plugin in Adobe Audition (Waves S1 Stereo Imager) to lessen the R/L imbalance.  I'm hoping if I use 4080s and can get some correction with the plugin (of course it won't be perfect) the results will be acceptable.  Again, I'm fully aware of front row location being quite suboptimal.  The point is, I want the smallest visible rig possible yielding a recording that is not so unbalanced I can't listen to it.

[Melanie]

Gutbucket--thank you for your detailed writeup and photos, and Bob and Melanie, for your input as well.  Given the info you've provided I'm thinking of looking into a pair of 4080s... removing them from the shockmount/clips and windscreens and using them like my 4061s.

Application: I often stealth record from the front row.  Obviously this has many drawbacks but for certain artists being in the front row outweighs them for me.  When I use the 4061 omnis, the further off to the side I am the more unbalanced the recording soundstage becomes (not sure that's the correct term but you know what I mean).  It's better with the SP cardioids but they are not as stealthy.  For the past few years I've been using a plugin in Adobe Audition (Waves S1 Stereo Imager) to lessen the R/L imbalance.  I'm hoping if I use 4080s and can get some correction with the plugin (of course it won't be perfect) the results will be acceptable.  Again, I'm fully aware of front row location being quite suboptimal.  The point is, I want the smallest visible rig possible yielding a recording that is not so unbalanced I can't listen to it.

Gutbucket--thank you for your detailed writeup and photos, and Bob and Melanie, for your input as well.  Given the info you've provided I'm thinking of looking into a pair of 4080s... removing them from the shockmount/clips and windscreens and using them like my 4061s.

Application: I often stealth record from the front row.  Obviously this has many drawbacks but for certain artists being in the front row outweighs them for me.  When I use the 4061 omnis, the further off to the side I am the more unbalanced the recording soundstage becomes (not sure that's the correct term but you know what I mean).  It's better with the SP cardioids but they are not as stealthy.  For the past few years I've been using a plugin in Adobe Audition (Waves S1 Stereo Imager) to lessen the R/L imbalance.  I'm hoping if I use 4080s and can get some correction with the plugin (of course it won't be perfect) the results will be acceptable.  Again, I'm fully aware of front row location being quite suboptimal.  The point is, I want the smallest visible rig possible yielding a recording that is not so unbalanced I can't listen to it.

I've recorded Zakir Hussain twice from the front row with the DPA 4080s clipped to outside of black wool cap, color of mics, clips and wires are black so it blends right in. Sound is really good, I've clipped them to a red solo cup and put them on stage for Jazz is Dead, no vocals so sound is totally accurate right down to where each musicians position is very pronounced to the ear. Same with Zakir. One Zakir was multiple percussionists other show was with a woman violinist to his left and a woman playing a small sitar type instrument on the right. again, total stereo affect with most sound coming directly to you from the stage. sound behind you is very limited, so crowd noise is minimal. Also small on stage speakers will fill in vocals, but vocals are usually an issue close up where house sound is behind you. Bob

[VibrationOfLife]

My two current sets of mics are SP-CMC-8 cards (which I believe are the same as AT943 but I could be wrong) and DPA 4061 omnis.  The SP cards, while small, are not as small as the DPAs which are pretty tiny.  Are there any cardioid mics out there that are as small as the DPAs?  There don't seem to be, though I would love to be enlightened.  I've wondered this for a while.  Is there some inherent structural limitation where cardioid mics cannot be as miniaturized as omnis?

As an aside I do have MK4s but haven't used them in years as they're way too bulky for me, plus my tinybox is broken.

It's a shame those MK4's are collecting dust.  I would kill for a pair.

[Gutbucket]

Front row / stage-lip can be the best spot for the kind of instrumental music Bob mentions, getting clean transient rich sound directly from the instruments with audience behind.  Great results that when it works.  Vox will need a fill speaker though.

If you have the ability to record 3 or 4 channels, there are a few strategies I can share with you via PM that help significantly in balancing off-center recordings, some of which are as stealthy as it gets.