Topic: dpa 4060 vs. 4061 for metal and jazz

[jlykos]

I have used the search function to try to find out if either one is better for my purposes and I am stuck.  I want one miniature microphone that can handle a wide variety of recording situations.  I have a set of Sonic Studios DSM/6-L mics and after they completely overloaded when recording the Melvins, I want something else, so I am looking at the dpa 406x series.  I am having a hard time deciding, however, whether to get the 4060 or 4061.

I record up-front at quite a few metal shows, but I also want them to use for recording jazz and ethnic music at festivals and in small clubs.  From what I have read in the archive here, the 4061s are the way to go for metal and the 4060s would be perfect for jazz and whatever else I want to tape.  I guess that my question boils down to whether the 4060s can handle loud SPLs at something like a Melvins show.  If not, would the 4061s be sensitive enough to record quiet sounds like in an acoustic jazz performance?

I would run dpa 406x > MPS6030 > Sony PCM-D50.  Ideally, I would run line-in for everything.  Whatever dpa mic variation I decide to go with, I am definitely getting it in an SKM kit.  Those mounting options look like too much fun to pass up.  I could also use the XLR adapters into my PSP-2 if I ever feel like it.

And before I get bombarded with other things, no, I do not want to purchase Church, Core-Sounds, Audio Technicas, Countryman, or anything else.  I have listened to a lot of these recordings and I like the dpa sound the best out of any of the others, although I will admit that I was pleasantly surprised by some of the Countryman recordings that I have heard.

[beatkilla]

Well i record with DPA 4061s upfront of stacks at loud metal club and arena shows recording into sony rh 1 and now sony m 10 and i have to use a 11db attenuator to not overload.However im recording mic in with battery box.

[acidjack]

I love your disclaimer at the end. Fluffers beware!

Like beatkilla, I can tell you I have recorded with the 4061s with a stack tape at a Mogwai show - not exactly "metal" but every damn bit as loud.  No distortion at all.  The 4060s are probably fine for 95% of shows, but stack taping metal.... I wouldn't do it.  I also recorded some insanely loud stuff upfront at ATP (Boredoms, Suicide, Shellac) which you can find on DIME. Again, this stuff was pushing the limits of loud.  Listen to the My Bloody Valentine tapes made with 4061s... the mics can handle anything.

I can also tell you I've recorded classical (well, Johann Johannsson - modern classical, with some amplified keys) as well as quieter acoustic shows with the 4061s.  They sound pretty damn good to me.

I am sure it's true that the 4060 is more sensitive and sounds "better" all things held equal - just look at the specs - and if you said you do jazz almost all the time and occasionally do a rock show, I'd say go that way.  But if extremely loud rock is in the equation, I think you're better off with the 4061s.  They can handle anything, and they sound just fine to me on the quieter stuff, esp if you put something nice behind them.

The setup you're suggesting sounds good to me.  Not as small as the Coresound version or having Church rig something up to run with one of his pres (which is worth at least looking into, I suppose) but very, very solid.

Also worth noting - the 406x boundary mounts are really cool...

[mr qpl]

The 4061's work great for me, quiet to very loud shows. The quiet ones work great at 24bit, no hiss on the amplification.

[guysonic]

Suggest the 4061 since most shows of stated interest are extreme bass-loud metal types.   One mic will not be optimum for all types of venues.   My personal taste is for doing jazz, acoustic, and moderately loud pop/rock with a natural uncolored mic (that's your DSM-6S/L) leaving the super loud stuff to more extreme loudness capable (but highly unnatural sounding) DPA type mics.   

Yes, the DPA's do make mid-highs 'pop-out' due to their artifical boosting of those frequencies (which is great for hard rock/metal), but using software to color an uncolored mic'd recording to taste seems to me a wiser approach to the alternative of having a mic always color a recording leaving little or no choice if wanting more natural sounding results. 

While enhanced with software coloring technicques can make any (undistorted, not overloaded) natural mic'd recording sound like virually ANY type of mic desired, this is NOT true with using highly colored mics offering little editing choices especially if wanting a most realistic acoustic venue sound.

In other words, I've found it nearly impossible to undo a colored mic's effects in software, so best to use an uncolored natural sound mic if wanting true as-heard venue sound, or best choices for later fine-tuned-to-taste software enhancements.

[Gutbucket]

I guess I'm a fan of highly unnatural sounding DPA type mics too. 
and FWIW find them easier to EQ either way than many other mics.

I use  a couple pairs of 4060s for the slightly better self-noise and greater sensitivity, recording primarily lower level stuff.  I've had overloading twice in 4 years at two super, super loud shows, which are not my typical fare.  4061s would probably have worked better for those situations.  However, I don't believe the mics themselves were the source of distiortion, but overloading of the following circuitry- either the external preamp I was using or the recorder's input stage. The 4060s are so sensitive that they have a very hot output, even though they don't actually clip until over 130dBSPL.  4061s clip even higher, but are also much less sensitive, which what I think makes the real difference when people report that the 4060 has problems at very loud shows.

I can't substantiate this, but I suspect that if i had either attenuated before the preamp or used a pro-grade preamp with serious headroom (like my V3), the 4060s would have done just fine.

That probably doesn't make your choice easier.  For me the trade off for the lower self noise was worth it, because I primarily record jazz and acoustic stuff.  If I recorded enough really high volume material I'd look into attenuators that pass PIP.

[illconditioned]

Suggest the 4061 since most shows of stated interest are extreme bass-loud metal types.   One mic will not be optimum for all types of venues.   My personal taste is for doing jazz, acoustic, and moderately loud pop/rock with a natural uncolored mic (that's your DSM-6S/L) leaving the super loud stuff to more extreme loudness capable (but highly unnatural sounding) DPA type mics.   

Yes, the DPA's do make mid-highs 'pop-out' due to their artifical boosting of those frequencies (which is great for hard rock/metal), but using software to color an uncolored mic'd recording to taste seems to me a wiser approach to the alternative of having a mic always color a recording leaving little or no choice if wanting more natural sounding results. 

While enhanced with software coloring technicques can make any (undistorted, not overloaded) natural mic'd recording sound like virually ANY type of mic desired, this is NOT true with using highly colored mics offering little editing choices especially if wanting a most realistic acoustic venue sound.

In other words, I've found it nearly impossible to undo a colored mic's effects in software, so best to use an uncolored natural sound mic if wanting true as-heard venue sound, or best choices for later fine-tuned-to-taste software enhancements.

I don't understand why you call the DPA "colored".  They have a completely flat (and consistent) response.  In fact, they are so good that they are great as (relatively) inexpensive) measurement mics.  Some companies market systems with an OEM DPA406x mic.


The problem I've got with the DPA some kind of "edginess" or "crunch" at high frequencies.  The frequencies are all there (at the right level) but the sound is "unmusical" if I could say that.  Some people have noticed this, while others have not.  Perhaps this is why you like the DSM mics (whatever capsule you use ).  I've got similar preferences to the Sennheiser capsules (KE4 omni, KE40 cardioid).  Somehow these just sound more pleasant, at least for music.  But hands down, the best sounding, and most detailed mics to me are: Countryman B3 and Nevaton MKE400.  These have a completely realistic sound, and still sound pleasant for music.


By the way, I'm adding some ambient recordings to my website.  Nothing special, but just to demonstrate the realism of Countryman B3.


  Richard

[guysonic]

I don't understand why you call the DPA "colored".  They have a completely flat (and consistent) response.  In fact, they are so good that they are great as (relatively) inexpensive) measurement mics.  Some companies market systems with an OEM DPA406x mic.

The problem I've got with the DPA some kind of "edginess" or "crunch" at high frequencies.  The frequencies are all there (at the right level) but the sound is "unmusical" if I could say that.  Some people have noticed this, while others have not.  Perhaps this is why you like the DSM mics (whatever capsule you use ).  I've got similar preferences to the Sennheiser capsules (KE4 omni, KE40 cardioid).  Somehow these just sound more pleasant, at least for music.  But hands down, the best sounding, and most detailed mics to me are: Countryman B3 and Nevaton MKE400.  These have a completely realistic sound, and still sound pleasant for music.

By the way, I'm adding some ambient recordings to my website.  Nothing special, but just to demonstrate the realism of Countryman B3.

Richard

I for many years wished your opinion of the DPA 4060 series was true for me, as I had (1996/7) tried very hard to use these for making a DSM mic series with extreme loudness 145+ dB SPL handling ability. 

Unfortunately found within minutes of recorded results listening, and later graphical plots, the stock mics where seriously flawed mostly due to being inside a brass tube and facing the wall of that tube.   See frequency plots from manufacture and user comparison testing below.

[illconditioned]

I don't understand why you call the DPA "colored".  They have a completely flat (and consistent) response.  In fact, they are so good that they are great as (relatively) inexpensive) measurement mics.  Some companies market systems with an OEM DPA406x mic.

The problem I've got with the DPA some kind of "edginess" or "crunch" at high frequencies.  The frequencies are all there (at the right level) but the sound is "unmusical" if I could say that.  Some people have noticed this, while others have not.  Perhaps this is why you like the DSM mics (whatever capsule you use ).  I've got similar preferences to the Sennheiser capsules (KE4 omni, KE40 cardioid).  Somehow these just sound more pleasant, at least for music.  But hands down, the best sounding, and most detailed mics to me are: Countryman B3 and Nevaton MKE400.  These have a completely realistic sound, and still sound pleasant for music.

By the way, I'm adding some ambient recordings to my website.  Nothing special, but just to demonstrate the realism of Countryman B3.

Richard

I for many years wished your opinion of the DPA 4060 series was true for me, as I had (1996/7) tried very hard to use these for making a DSM mic series with extreme loudness 145+ dB SPL handling ability. 

Unfortunately found within minutes of recorded results listening, and later graphical plots, the stock mics where seriously flawed mostly due to being inside a brass tube and facing the wall of that tube.   See frequency plots from manufacture and user comparison testing below.

Dear Guy,


OK, are those your measurements?  Are you referring to the "wiggles" in the response curve for the DPA4061 from 5k to 20k?  There appear to be 5dB deviations, which is quite large.  This is news to me, though I have never seen *real* curves for the 406x, only idealized lines (drawn by DPA).  Do the "wiggles" depend on the FFT size (# of samples)?  Are they consistent between mics?  If those wiggles are really there, then that would certainly explain why the DPA406x sound funny at high frequencies.


As far as being inside a tube, I find it hard to believe this can have an effect?  Roughly, the speed of sound is 1foot per one ms.  So a 1kHz wave has a wavelength of 12".  A 6kHz sound has a wavelength of 2", and 12kHz sound has a wavelength of 1".  I find it hard to believe a 5mm/ 0.25" tube is going to have any effect below 10 or 12k.


Hmm.  Hold on.  Maybe there is something.  I notice that the "high frequency emphasis" caps (Countryman and DPA) add a boost at 8kHz, (either +4dB or +8dB) so, maybe there is something.  But I always thought the emphasis was *smooth*, not "ragged" like the plot you gave.


When I spoke to Bruce Myers on the phone he said Yo Yo Ma puts a DPA406x on his cello.  I'm scratching my head and asking why he doesn't put a Nevaton or Countryman mic on there!

Anyway, thanks for the informative discussion!
  Richard

[guysonic]

Not my frequency plots, but from DPA spec sheet and a user comparison.  Removing the brass tube seemed to solve the coloration issue I heard, but the practical process of doing this was very challenging making me not want to do this on a regular basis.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Put a vote for the 4061's in for me. I used to run the 4060's and recall running into problems only once (don't recall what show and why, I just remember thinking...I should have gotten the 4060's).

I ran the 4060's > MMA6000 and usually ran very little gain on the MMA6000. I could have easily run the 4060's to a DPA power supply to the recorder and just gave a slight boost to the signal in the recorder. That would save you a little $$ since the DPA power supplies are cheaper than the MMA6000. One thing I didn't like about the DPA setup was getting it put together in undercover situations. The microdots were difficult to put on the MMA6000. Not super hard, but just a little troublesome in a bathroom stall, for example.

I would suggest listening to some alternatives as well. I am currently running the Nevaton MCE400 > Tinybox as my undercover rig. That entire setup only cost $100 more than ONE DPA 4060! $500 for the entire rig (minus recorder). I did get a good deal on the mics though so normal price might be $600...still a great deal. I like the sound of the Nevaton's about the same or a little more than the DPA's. One disadvantage is the Tinybox has an internal Li-Ion battery so if you're recording a multiday fest without access to power you can't just toss another 9V in there, but that's a rare occurance (worse comes to worse you can charge it in your car via a power inverter). Ran this setup yesterday for Mile High Music Festival and everything worked great.

[aaronji]

I would run dpa 406x > MPS6030 > Sony PCM-D50.  Ideally, I would run line-in for everything.  Whatever dpa mic variation I decide to go with, I am definitely getting it in an SKM kit.  Those mounting options look like too much fun to pass up.  I could also use the XLR adapters into my PSP-2 if I ever feel like it.

I've been running a similar set-up for a couple of years now (4060 > MPS6030 into either a PCM-M10 or a concert mod PMD620).  I have never had any distortion  problems with the 4060s, although I only tape about ten really loud shows a year (the majority is jazz, for which I find the 4060s are perfect). 

If you're really concerned about distortion, go with the 4061s (as others have said).  For quieter shows, you might have to add a lot of recorder gain or go mic-in (or use a pre), but the difference between the two mic models (about 10.5 dB) can be made up somewhere...

In general, I think you'll find this to be a compact, easy to use, and good sounding rig.  Also, I'll second the coolness of the boundary mounts; I have gotten a couple of great recordings using them.  I have also gotten some use out of the magnetic clips (which I thought would be sort of worthless when they showed up), either in a boundary-type setting or stuck to railings or the like...

I like the sound of the Nevaton's about the same or a little more than the DPA's.

I have always been curious about the Nevatons, although the recordings I have listened to seemed a little light in the low end compared to the DPAs.  I have only heard five or six recordings made with them, though, so I don't know if that's the mics or something downstream.  I am pretty happy with my heavily colored 4060s (), and already have three pairs of small omnis, but I'm always looking at the options...

I am also curious if anyone has tried chopping the XLRs and running them through a 9V battery box?

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I have always been curious about the Nevatons, although the recordings I have listened to seemed a little light in the low end compared to the DPAs.  I have only heard five or six recordings made with them, though, so I don't know if that's the mics or something downstream.  I am pretty happy with my heavily colored 4060s (), and already have three pairs of small omnis, but I'm always looking at the options...

I am also curious if anyone has tried chopping the XLRs and running them through a 9V battery box?

You can't do that unless you figure out what electronics are in the Nevaton XLR's and replicate them somewhere else.

When I first got them I was concerned about the additional mass of the XLR's when going through security. I have found it's not an issue. I actually like the ease of hooking things up with the XLR's vs. the Microdot's. I had a few occasions when I thought the Microdots were properly connected to the MMA6000 and they weren't (which resulted in a static filled recording).

Just ran the Nevaton's last night for Rush at Red Rocks. Last time I ran the DPA's for Rush at Red Rocks. The Nevaton's win.

[acidjack]

How are you running Nevatons>tinybox?  Do they not require a full 48v of phantom?

Asking because I had been hoping to run DPA 4021>XLR to 5pin XLR adapter>tinybox, but Jon said (I thought) that the tinybox can't provide the full 48v that the 4021s need...

Sorry for the semi-hijack.

Put a vote for the 4061's in for me. I used to run the 4060's and recall running into problems only once (don't recall what show and why, I just remember thinking...I should have gotten the 4060's).

I ran the 4060's > MMA6000 and usually ran very little gain on the MMA6000. I could have easily run the 4060's to a DPA power supply to the recorder and just gave a slight boost to the signal in the recorder. That would save you a little $$ since the DPA power supplies are cheaper than the MMA6000. One thing I didn't like about the DPA setup was getting it put together in undercover situations. The microdots were difficult to put on the MMA6000. Not super hard, but just a little troublesome in a bathroom stall, for example.

I would suggest listening to some alternatives as well. I am currently running the Nevaton MCE400 > Tinybox as my undercover rig. That entire setup only cost $100 more than ONE DPA 4060! $500 for the entire rig (minus recorder). I did get a good deal on the mics though so normal price might be $600...still a great deal. I like the sound of the Nevaton's about the same or a little more than the DPA's. One disadvantage is the Tinybox has an internal Li-Ion battery so if you're recording a multiday fest without access to power you can't just toss another 9V in there, but that's a rare occurance (worse comes to worse you can charge it in your car via a power inverter). Ran this setup yesterday for Mile High Music Festival and everything worked great.

[aaronji]

I am also curious if anyone has tried chopping the XLRs and running them through a 9V battery box?

You can't do that unless you figure out what electronics are in the Nevaton XLR's and replicate them somewhere else.

Interesting.  I was guessing that the XLRs probably just reduced the voltage to the mics, like the DPA DAD6001 or the Naiant PFA.  With a little digging, though, it seems that there is a board that needs to be part of the circuit too (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=98880.msg1479365#msg1479365).

When I first got them I was concerned about the additional mass of the XLR's when going through security. I have found it's not an issue. I actually like the ease of hooking things up with the XLR's vs. the Microdot's. I had a few occasions when I thought the Microdots were properly connected to the MMA6000 and they weren't (which resulted in a static filled recording).

Personally, I don't have a problem with the microdots, although they are pretty small.  I don't really foresee a problem with the XLRs on the Nevatons either, although they are sort of bulky.  Too bad chopping them isn't a simple option...

Just ran the Nevaton's last night for Rush at Red Rocks. Last time I ran the DPA's for Rush at Red Rocks. The Nevaton's win.

Can you post links for the downloads or some samples?  I'd be very interested in hearing them...