Topic: microphones and magnets ?

[Nick's Picks]

something tells me the two dont play well together ?

I had this vision of a magnetic shockmount that keeps the microphone "floating in air" between an array of reversed polarity magnets.
then, reality suggested it wouldn't work due to the magnet and what havoc it would reap on the mic itself.


I'm still inclined to "build a better shockmount" though, as the only one i've ever used that I really believed made a difference were the sabra mounts, but those things are so flabby....

[Chilly Brioschi]

Most mic bodies are brass....       

[DSatz]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

[Nick's Picks]

well, not necessarily the "best use for field recording"...but maybe a small tether somehow, or a way to keep the mics in place (suspended, but unable to move out of the mount).

I do like the trained raptor approach though.

[guysonic]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

Magnetic mic suspension would be a most unique product, especially if an 'after market' accessory should be practical.  Good thing though, all wired mics give option of securing the cord to the clamping bar or stand in some easy 'Velcro tie-down-strap' fashion, preventing that 'magnetic' suspension from causing serious embarrassments if bumped too hard.  

[Church-Audio]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

Ouch.... Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed  I think its an interesting idea but the main problem is that any force on the microphone in the horizontal plane would knock the mic out of its holder.. Unless that is you used a metal ring that "make" the mic magnetic and also acts as a safety preventing the mic from "falling out" by the use of two large disks on ether side of the magnets that never touch anything unless the  mic is really smacked. I think if an idea like this was worked out it could be very interesting.. But you would need some strong magnets.

[Roving Sign]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

Ouch.... Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed  I think its an interesting idea but the main problem is that any force on the microphone in the horizontal plane would knock the mic out of its holder..

This has never stopped Sabra Som! - Your mics will FLY out of those things if your stand takes good stiff kick - I love 'em - but - not a great piece of field gear...

[anodyne33]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

Ouch.... Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed  I think its an interesting idea but the main problem is that any force on the microphone in the horizontal plane would knock the mic out of its holder.. Unless that is you used a metal ring that "make" the mic magnetic and also acts as a safety preventing the mic from "falling out" by the use of two large disks on ether side of the magnets that never touch anything unless the  mic is really smacked. I think if an idea like this was worked out it could be very interesting.. But you would need some strong magnets.

Which could possible affect, if not permanently damage the moving coil mechanism.

[Church-Audio]

Nick's Picks, very nice idea, and I'm glad to see fundamental research being conducted right here on this board, in an open and public fashion.

So my question is, what would happen if someone bumped hard into the mike stand? I think you'd need a little parachute for the microphone as a backup. Or better yet, trained birds of prey to swoop down and catch the cable in their beaks or talons any time they hear the words, "Oops! I'm so sorry!"

--best regards

Ouch.... Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed  I think its an interesting idea but the main problem is that any force on the microphone in the horizontal plane would knock the mic out of its holder.. Unless that is you used a metal ring that "make" the mic magnetic and also acts as a safety preventing the mic from "falling out" by the use of two large disks on ether side of the magnets that never touch anything unless the  mic is really smacked. I think if an idea like this was worked out it could be very interesting.. But you would need some strong magnets.

Which could possible affect, if not permanently damage the moving coil mechanism.

Dynamic mics would be effected "possibly" because of the influence on the magnetic field of the magnet for the capsule but condenser mics dont use magnets. There is another mic out there that would have been effected.. The sennheiser professional hand held mic its from the early 80's they used a magnetic reed switch to turn the mic on and off.. The switch mechanism was outside the body of the mic * a permanent magnet * the reed was inside the body that way they did not have to "cut a hole" in the body for the switch and you could remove it and not have to worry about a stupid singer turning it off in the middle of a show

[Nick's Picks]

I am continually impressed by the power of "rare earth" magnets.  I have these little tiny cubes that are so strong, they take two hands to pull them off the fridge.

playing with them always gives me ideas.
I had a great idea of a hovering skate-board type thing....., but I'll post that in the open forum as its a little off topic.  but it would work!



http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,91411.0.html

[boojum]

An interesting idea.  Maybe it would work if you got the bugs worked out.  But how much would it cost??  The current mic shock mounts are not made of anything expensive but are quite dear.  If you could come up with something in that range you could have a winner.   

[SparkE!]

I've been experimenting with this concept for shock mounting of mics for awhile now and I've not been able to derive a stable geometry that relies only on static magnetic fields.  It seems that you either have to modulate the magnetic field and use the magnets in such a way that they attract each other to achieve the levitation or you have to use some other form of weak mechanical stabilization and orient the magnets so that they repel each other, for example the levitron top:
 

Click image to go to Levitron's web site.

Whatever the case, this is not a trivial problem and I'm beginning to believe that it requires active circuitry to control the magnetic fields if it is to be completely mechanically decoupled from the environment.

[landshark]

I've been experimenting with this concept for shock mounting of mics for awhile now and I've not been able to derive a stable geometry that relies only on static magnetic fields.  It seems that you either have to modulate the magnetic field and use the magnets in such a way that they attract each other to achieve the levitation or you have to use some other form of weak mechanical stabilization and orient the magnets so that they repel each other, for example the levitron top:
 

Click image to go to Levitron's web site.

Whatever the case, this is not a trivial problem and I'm beginning to believe that it requires active circuitry to control the magnetic fields if it is to be completely mechanically decoupled from the environment.

Hmm, I see a problem there.  While condenser mics don't use magnets, they do create electric fields, and any time you mix magnetism and movement you're going to get an electromagnetic field that I suspect would affect the mic's signal.  Particularly if you were using some active circuitry.  Unless you shielded the mic in a Faraday cage or something like that.  Of course, I'm no engineer so I could just be talking out my a$$.  I did give this issue some thought when I was thinking about mic stands - it'd be useful to be able to use magnets to clip very small mics into unobtrusive places in a venue, and there always seems to be something metal handy (pipes, support beams, iron trelis, etc.).

It would be cool if it gave the mics some wierd theremin-like effect though....

Mike

 

[Nick's Picks]

magnetic clamp  !!!!

[stirinthesauce]

magnetic clamp  !!!!

talk about ease of clamping on when late to a show

[dean]

Um, you guys are nerds...   

[SparkE!]

Um, you guys are nerds...   

Guilty as charged.

[landshark]

i tried a simple, not so scientific test with my 460's. moving a paradise pizza (no affiliation) refrigerator magnet close to the capsules had a noticeable effect on the sound... it seemed to lower the levels.

LOL!!!!  Ahh, science, gotta love it. 

[Bob Lazar]

The element 115  (or ununpentium (Uup)) could be machined into mic clips which would create a reaction from being transmuted with an additional proton from 115 to element 116 which immediately decays and releases antimatter. When the element becomes so heavy as to have 115 protons and lands within an island of stability, the cumulative strong nuclear force or "Gravity A-wave" radiates or extends past the perimeter of the atom.  We can access this gravity and amplify it, lensing it to counter act the gravity of the microphones and naturally propogate them above the floor.

[Nick's Picks]

exactly!

[SparkE!]

Yeah that works for about 100 milliseconds, but then what do you do?  Make more?

[SparkE!]

Whoa!  Looks like Uup could actually cause your mics to be suitable for practical space travel:

http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Elerium-115
http://www.beyondweird.com/element115.html

So you're sitting there calmly recording your favorite artist when the mic mounts suddenly warp time-space so badly that your mics take off at relativistic speeds.  That can't be good for them, can it?  Would that be covered under warranty?

And Bob! You've got your own web site!

http://www.boblazar.com/ (but you can't come in)

[dean]

The element 115  (or ununpentium (Uup)) could be machined into mic clips which would create a reaction from being transmuted with an additional proton from 115 to element 116 which immediately decays and releases antimatter. When the element becomes so heavy as to have 115 protons and lands within an island of stability, the cumulative strong nuclear force or "Gravity A-wave" radiates or extends past the perimeter of the atom.  We can access this gravity and amplify it, lensing it to counter act the gravity of the microphones and naturally propogate them above the floor.

I was just going to say that!    

[jerryfreak]

wow, do you guys really beleive that modern shock mounts are that poor at isolation that you need to reinvent the wheel?

[guysonic]

i tried a simple, not so scientific test with my 460's. moving a paradise pizza (no affiliation) refrigerator magnet close to the capsules had a noticeable effect on the sound... it seemed to lower the levels.

Good way to test worst case magnetic effects, AND is a potential issue! 

Fortunately, even a most magnetic sensitive mic has good chance of working normally 

INTRODUCING  the production model of the "GRAV-CLAMP"  with ~3" overall length universal collar accommodating up to 1.5" dia. mics.  More importantly, the GRAV motor mounts a safe distance well behind the diaphragm, AND has mic-side sufficient magnetic shielding to not mag-lockup output mics with transformer.  Designing good shielding is not difficult, and with performance benefits, so expect no mag-effects issues whatsoever in refined production models. 

The GRAV-CLAMP features easy and fast mic mounting after just one setup experience! 

Quick Instruction: AFTER  the slacked mic cords are carefully secured at point where mic is about center inside clamp's fixed outer hull , clamp's movable collar now easily slides along the body  , quickly locking-down  a little behind equilibrium balance position of floating collar+mic body.  This adds needed mass-loaded forward bias to offset the slacked cord's vectoring effect.

First setup will take much time and care,  and it's most important to find and mark cord/collar positions with label or permanent pen. 

When already knowing exact mic mounting positions,  repeating the setup is easily done in a few minutes using same mic + cord combination.

  Bottom line is a practical magnetic mic suspension is still a GO waiting to happen! 

[DSatz]

d5 asked:

> if you're shielding the magnet, then how does the magnet work?

That's like asking how stealth recording can work! The magnet is the only part of this arrangement that has any business knowing that it's a magnet. Its two weapons are fear and surprise ... and ruthless efficiency.

--best regards

[guysonic]

Designing good shielding is not difficult

if you're shielding the magnet, then how does the magnet work?

Simple explanation is presence of a multi-layer combination of materials that both efficiently 'conduct' (effecting mag-field bypass), and with materials resisting  magnetic fields (shielding) to keep mic side field propagation 'squeezed into a path' to not invade the mic body space. 

The outside facing fixed clamp side magnetic field is unimpeded and further shaped by the layered shielding materials by their presence on the mic side, and absence in the grav-clamping area.

[rowjimmy]

So you're sitting there calmly recording your favorite artist when the mic mounts suddenly warp time-space so badly that your mics take off at relativistic speeds.  That can't be good for them, can it?  Would that be covered under warranty?

This happened to me once at a show. No magnets or ultraheavy elements were involved (that I'm aware of) but the liquid was pretty heavy.

[landshark]

d5 asked:

> if you're shielding the magnet, then how does the magnet work?

That's like asking how stealth recording can work! The magnet is the only part of this arrangement that has any business knowing that it's a magnet. Its two weapons are fear and surprise ... and ruthless efficiency.

--best regards

...and nice red uniforms...



that would be three weapons; fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to recording.

[wbrisette]

I'm still inclined to "build a better shockmount" though, as the only one i've ever used that I really believed made a difference were the sabra mounts, but those things are so flabby....

These actually work VERY well: http://www.professionalsound.com/Catalog/unism.htm

Wayne

[Nick's Picks]

they look nice, but too large.

[wbrisette]

they look nice, but too large.

They're actually some of the smallest one's I've seen that work. Most of the other one's I've seen that are smaller don't tend to work well. I like that they are nearly impossible to damage and the rubber rings are cheap.

I'm curious in what way you think they are too large?

Wayne

[dean]

I thought along Nick's lines, but that doesn't count 'em out for me.  If they work and I need 'em, I'll gladly use 'em.

Curious if you think the AT8410/15's are no good, Wayne?  My 8410's serve me very well...

[yug du nord]

The element 115  (or ununpentium (Uup)) could be machined into mic clips which would create a reaction from being transmuted with an additional proton from 115 to element 116 which immediately decays and releases antimatter. When the element becomes so heavy as to have 115 protons and lands within an island of stability, the cumulative strong nuclear force or "Gravity A-wave" radiates or extends past the perimeter of the atom.  We can access this gravity and amplify it, lensing it to counter act the gravity of the microphones and naturally propogate them above the floor.

You really Bob Lazar?    Sounds like ya could be...  but are ya? 

[dean]

The element 115  (or ununpentium (Uup)) could be machined into mic clips which would create a reaction from being transmuted with an additional proton from 115 to element 116 which immediately decays and releases antimatter. When the element becomes so heavy as to have 115 protons and lands within an island of stability, the cumulative strong nuclear force or "Gravity A-wave" radiates or extends past the perimeter of the atom.  We can access this gravity and amplify it, lensing it to counter act the gravity of the microphones and naturally propogate them above the floor.

You really Bob Lazar?    Sounds like ya could be...  but are ya? 

Check out "his" post count, Guy...   

[wbrisette]

Curious if you think the AT8410/15's are no good, Wayne?  My 8410's serve me very well...

I have a pair of the AT8410's myself as well as the PSC one's. Both work well, but the PSC mounts are much smaller than the AT mounts.

Wayne

[dean]

Curious if you think the AT8410/15's are no good, Wayne?  My 8410's serve me very well...

I have a pair of the AT8410's myself as well as the PSC one's. Both work well, but the PSC mounts are much smaller than the AT mounts.

Wayne

Wow, I would've NEVER guessed that from the photos.  Thanks for the tip!  Do you think the PSC mounts work better?

[Nick's Picks]

they look like it would be a nightmare to mound a small pair of condensers any other way than DIN or NOS.
you need a small mount to to ORTF / XY w/something like 184s, or other short mics.

a long shockmount (and those look long) just done let enough of the mic hang out.
I often find the shockmounts get in the way of mounting as they touch one another and dont allow for the room I need.
drives me nuts.

[Nick's Picks]

Ouch...$56 for those puppies.

Honestly....
I bet ANYONE here could not tell an A/B comparison with and w/o shockmounts in any live rock concert setting where the noise floor is around 90db to start.
w/the exception of someone banging on your stand with their key chain or something.

[dean]

^ I do a ton of split omni on stage recording where the shock mounts are crucial.  Oftentimes due to the bass amp and drum kit there's a lot of bounce & vibration on the stage.  Once I got screwed that way not using shock mounts.  Never again.  So it all depends on what you're doing...

[DSatz]

Nick's Picks, for comparison with the shocking $56 cost for a shock mount, please see the attached excerpt of a January, 2007 price list from a top-grade European manufacturer. In recent months the dollar has been falling relative to the Euro, so next year we may look back at these prices with fond nostalgia ...

--best regards

[boojum]

Wow!  $20 for a rubber band!