Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: M-S setup question  (Read 10395 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DeepCreatures

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
    • DeepCreatures Trading Home Page
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2007, 08:52:13 AM »

Unless the LSD2 has a built in MS matrix circuit - you abosolutely need post work.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=126

thanks for the link.  so, if i am gathering this correctly, if the LSD2 has a built in MS matrix circuit then no worries.  i am really not sure if it does or not - anyone know???  however, if it does not then i need to do the following in post:

Left channel=M + S
Right channel=M - S

so, basically do some channel manipulation with what i have.  thanks!

peace,
ts
Mics: AKG 480s (Ck-61, CK-62, CK-63); SP LSD2; Audix M1280Cs; CA STC-11; CSCs
Pre-Amps: T+ UA-5; W+ UA-5; Bmp2+ UA-5; SD MP-2; CA ST-9000
Recorders: Tascam ACM HD-P2; Sony PCM-D50; Sony M1 (x3); Tascam DA-P1; Sony MZ-RH10; Marantz PMD-430

Offline Shawn

  • is old and tired
  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3250
  • Gender: Male
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2007, 08:57:15 AM »
the lsd2 doesn't have m-s decoding built in. you must do it with your pre-amp or with software.

Offline DeepCreatures

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
    • DeepCreatures Trading Home Page
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2007, 09:18:05 AM »
with the pre-amp - interesting.  is that possible to do with a UA-5 or am i stuck with post production?  thanks again for the responses - +Ts

peace,
ts
Mics: AKG 480s (Ck-61, CK-62, CK-63); SP LSD2; Audix M1280Cs; CA STC-11; CSCs
Pre-Amps: T+ UA-5; W+ UA-5; Bmp2+ UA-5; SD MP-2; CA ST-9000
Recorders: Tascam ACM HD-P2; Sony PCM-D50; Sony M1 (x3); Tascam DA-P1; Sony MZ-RH10; Marantz PMD-430

Offline Brian Skalinder

  • Complaint Dept.
  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 18868
  • Gender: Male
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 09:35:05 AM »
with the pre-amp - interesting.  is that possible to do with a UA-5 or am i stuck with post production?

You're "stuck" doing it in post-production.  Which is better, really, as you have complete control over the mix in a clean, controlled environment.

In CEP/Audition:  Effects | Amplitude | Channel Mixer | Mid-Side to L-R preset.  Adjust the width by changing the relationship between the L and R values under New Left and New Right Channel.  The greater the difference between the L and R values, the wider the stereo field.  The smaller the difference between the L and R values, the narrower the stereo field.
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

Roving Sign

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2007, 09:55:01 AM »
with the pre-amp - interesting.  is that possible to do with a UA-5 or am i stuck with post production?

Whats not being said is - some preamps (like the V3 I believe) have a built in MS matrix circuit...

Offline DeepCreatures

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
    • DeepCreatures Trading Home Page
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2007, 10:02:03 AM »
thanks a ton guys!  will play around with this tonight and see what comes of it.

peace,
ts
Mics: AKG 480s (Ck-61, CK-62, CK-63); SP LSD2; Audix M1280Cs; CA STC-11; CSCs
Pre-Amps: T+ UA-5; W+ UA-5; Bmp2+ UA-5; SD MP-2; CA ST-9000
Recorders: Tascam ACM HD-P2; Sony PCM-D50; Sony M1 (x3); Tascam DA-P1; Sony MZ-RH10; Marantz PMD-430

Offline DeepCreatures

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 464
  • Gender: Male
    • DeepCreatures Trading Home Page
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2007, 05:43:43 PM »
wow!  that really opened up an already nice sounding recording.  thanks a ton guys.  will have to work with this recording method a bit more - i really like the results.

peace,
ts
Mics: AKG 480s (Ck-61, CK-62, CK-63); SP LSD2; Audix M1280Cs; CA STC-11; CSCs
Pre-Amps: T+ UA-5; W+ UA-5; Bmp2+ UA-5; SD MP-2; CA ST-9000
Recorders: Tascam ACM HD-P2; Sony PCM-D50; Sony M1 (x3); Tascam DA-P1; Sony MZ-RH10; Marantz PMD-430

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2007, 12:05:02 PM »
Permission to try opening some people's eyes here? If you record M and S signals directly, you're not stuck having to matrix the signals in post--you gain the ability to choose the matrixing parameters that sound best over loudspeakers.

For two-channel recording I use a Lunatec V3 with an M/S matrix built in, but I've never used that matrix and probably never will. For me the whole point of M/S recording is the ability to choose the matrix settings in the comfort of my living room, rather than having to guess at the settings while listening over headphones (and trying to keep people from knocking my mike stand over or stepping on my whatever).

You can do all sorts of useful things in post--you can EQ the low frequencies in the S channel before feeding the signals into the matrix, for example, which can vary the sense of spaciousness in a recording without altering its musical balance (much). But the main thing is, by controlling the gain of the S versus M signals going into the matrix, you can set the stereo width in relation to the degree of reverberant sound in the recording. There usually is one setting that feels the most "real" or "plausible," and in my experience it's almost never the setting that you would have gotten by accident.

(Increasing the amount of S relative to M increases the stereo basis width and adds more reverberant sound pickup; these two aspects of a stereo recording give an impression of the kind of space you were recording in, and some settings make far more sense to the listener than others. Unfortunately this is exactly the kind of thing that headphones tell you almost nothing about.)

I find it sad that some people apparently think M/S always means a cardioid facing forward, a figure-8 facing sideways, and accepting the given sensitivity and frequency response of these two microphones without question, as if God had handed those parameters down from Mt. Sinai. It's important to realize that the manufacturers of multi-pattern microphones have little or no control over the individual sensitivity and frequency response of one pattern versus another; the overall design is generally the best available compromise, but usually favoring the cardioid setting. It's certainly not optimized for any one technique such as M/S recording (at least not in the modern sense--though we could talk about this historically if anyone's interested).

The only things that aren't variable in M/S recording are the coincident placement, a figure-8 S microphone facing sideways, and the use of some kind of M+S/M-S matrix. The flexibility of M/S decoding is the greater part of its appeal as far as I'm concerned. Since every M/S arrangement is ultimately the equivalent of some theoretically possible X/Y setup, you might as well just use an X/Y setup if you're not going to optimize the matrixing parameters in post.

For that matter, since the S channel is generally several dB lower in level than the M channel, you can record both channels at full gain (whatever brings the maximum peaks up to -2 dBFS or whatever your chosen limit is) and in that way, gain a few extra dB of signal-to-noise in the eventual L/R stereo version of the recording.

--best regards
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 12:16:04 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2007, 12:11:13 PM »
DSatz.  As always your posts are informative and helpful.  Thank you.

Can you expand about what you do to the Side signal pre-matrix?  I've always felt (that at least for PA taping)...that the side channel is the "necessary but weak link" in the M/S matrix.  To me the Side sound is always "thin and distant".

Just curious.  What do YOU do to EQ the side channel pre-matrix.  Maybe I can learn a few tips.

Thanks.

Oh yeah... I agree wholeheartedly.  M/S is great b/c YOU GET to alter the image in post.  Not Stuck with it.

Kevin
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

Offline DSatz

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 3349
  • Gender: Male
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2007, 12:49:47 PM »
KLowe, thanks for the reply, and yes, listening to the "S" signal alone is instructive but not musically satisfying, and the general public shouldn't be exposed to it. It's kind of like, if you're a surgeon you can look at people and imagine in full color what their insides look like--but most other people don't like to hear chapter and verse about that, especially while eating.

I don't know whether people know how stereo FM broadcasting works, but it's just like M/S. The left and right channels are combined 1:1 and are broadcast as the main (or mono) signal. At the same time, the difference between left and right is derived by matrixing, and this "difference channel" (which corresponds exactly to the S channel of an M/S recording) modulates a 38 kHz subcarrier which is then demodulated in your FM receiver when it is in stereo mode--and the resulting signal pair is matrixed back into the original L and R signals. (Voila.) Mono FM tuners (which used to exist--my father had a nice McIntosh one in the mid-1950s) simply didn't have the subcarrier circuitry at all. For a while you could get add-on "stereo adapters" for mono FM tuners, but I digress.

In FM broadcasting the entire process has standardized gain settings, so there isn't generally any reason to adjust the matrixing parameters in your FM receiver. But as you know, sometimes stereo FM reception in fringe areas can be noisy, so some receivers have a "blend" control which reduces the difference channel and/or turns down the treble in the difference channel, thus preserving some L/R separation while reducing the apparent noise. That is analogous to processing the S channel separately before dematrixing.

With digital recording you can assume that the channels are quiet enough, so any adjustments you make will more likely be to improve imaging (increasing or decreasing spaciousness, as I mentioned, by playing with the S channel's low-frequency response) or tone color (reducing the sharpness of a peaky microphone for example, or making speech more intelligible, both of which can be done by equalizing M).

One important thing is, with a proper setup the S (or "difference") channel should never contain any direct sound that isn't being picked up in the M channel as well. If it does, then either you were miking too closely, or the pattern of your M microphone was too narrow for the stage width of whatever sound sources you were recording. It should always be possible to hear all the program material in the proper balance by listening to the M channel alone (in mono, of course).

M/S was introduced in the 1950s as a bridge between mono and stereo. The engineers who used it had all been picking up sound in mono for years, so they knew how to place a microphone for that purpose. The S microphone was then added on in the same location for compatible stereo recording/broadcasting. People who intend to record a lot in M/S, and who are sufficiently fanatical (in which case they are all immediately my friends), might want to practice making mono recordings that sound good, as a kind of preparatory exercise--it's extremely instructive, and a cool skill in its own right.

If you followed what I said about FM stereo--theoretically it would be possible to broadcast a live stereo pickup over FM by modulating the main carrier with the signal from the M microphone and the stereo subcarrier (the difference channel) with the signal from the S microphone.

Does that make sense?

--best regards

P.S.: I can't resist adding that in stereo LPs, horizontal groove modulation = M and vertical modulation = S; the 45/45 degree design of phono cartridges functions as the M+S/M-S matrix. Some moving coil cartridges exaggerate the M-S pickup, which gives more "air around the sound"--a characteristic that many audiophiles like. Carver used to sell a little processor called the "Digital Time Lens," built around an M/S matrix pair, that made digital recordings sound as if they were being played back through a cartridge like that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 01:03:08 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2007, 05:00:15 PM »
I started using M-S with my  TLs, love the sound and being able to play with the stereo spread in post; but, so far I have been able to set up on stage, and was wondering how far back from the stage can you still use M-S?
SP C4s > Kind Kables > Marantz 660 OADE Concert Mod
Matched ADK TLs > Mackie 1202-VLZ > Alesis ML9600

Offline Tim

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 32913
  • Gender: Male
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2007, 05:12:31 PM »
I started using M-S with my  TLs, love the sound and being able to play with the stereo spread in post; but, so far I have been able to set up on stage, and was wondering how far back from the stage can you still use M-S?

you can use it from anywhere in the room. the ability to dial in just the right amount of side can help you reduce the boominess of the room that you get running from a section.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2007, 08:18:19 PM »
Thanks Tim
I look forward to experimenting with M-S more
SP C4s > Kind Kables > Marantz 660 OADE Concert Mod
Matched ADK TLs > Mackie 1202-VLZ > Alesis ML9600

Offline JiB97

  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • Gender: Male
    • My Archive Bookmarks
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2007, 11:44:19 PM »
What do y'all think about using two different types of mics when running M/S.  Say, you would use a ADK TL for the side channel and maybe a 480 w/ck61 for the mid channel?  Would this sound too weird?   Would the difference between a SD mic and an LD mic be too "strange" sounding.

Seems like it would be a  lower profile setup than having (2) TLs being run vertically.

Has anyone on this board done this?

Thanks for the intelligent discussion regarding M/S.  It is something I have not tried but would love to if I had a bi-directional microphone.
AKG ck3/ck8 | c460b  + Naiant Actives | PFAs
Audio Technica u853r (omnis/mini-guns)
Tascam DR-70D

My Archive Links

Offline KLowe

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
  • Gender: Male
  • CrossFit....check you ego at the door
Re: M-S setup question
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2007, 11:19:13 AM »
I see no problem with running two different mics.  The post matrix should blend them very well.  There is an on-line tutorial ( Google Mid Side ) and you'll find that the sound engineer used two different mics.  When my Schoeps MK4 gets back from Germany I can't wait to run the Schoes as the mid and the AK 20 on the side.

MS rules face for so many different reasons!


http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2005/december/index4.html

« Last Edit: October 21, 2007, 11:21:25 AM by KLowe »
I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.063 seconds with 39 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF