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Author Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)  (Read 115157 times)

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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #345 on: January 11, 2013, 10:51:48 PM »
I remember reading (sorry cant find the source) that the m10 does dither, however it does not use the SBM circuit like the D50....   i really doubt it would truncate....
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #346 on: January 12, 2013, 02:17:52 PM »
I've just made some test recordings of very low-level midrange sinusoids via the line input. It looks to me as if either it's dithering for 16-bit, or the input noise dithers the signal well enough.

ETA: I say that because no matter what level I chose for the test tone, I never saw any spurious harmonics. The classic sign of inadequate dithering is harmonic distortion that decreases and eventually vanishes as you inject increasing amounts of random noise around the level of one LSB. (IOW as you're looking at a spectrum analysis of the output from a poorly dithered recorder without any additional injected noise, the level of each harmonic visibly stands above the noise floor to some degree--but as you add very-low-level random noise and increase the level of that noise gradually, you can see the distortion decrease proportionally.)

(And by the way, contrary to the drivel that one still hears from some audiophile pundits, the decrease in distortion as the dither increases and reaches its optimal level is for real--it's an absolute decrease in distortion, not just relative to the noise level. In fact as you bring up the level of the dither, the levels of the distortion components come down distinctly faster than noise is rising. Dither prevents quantization distortion--it doesn't just "cover" or "conceal" it; and anyway, to do the latter would require a noise level some 10 to 20 dB higher, since people can hear signal components that are below the level of random noise.) [end of ETA]

I see no sign of noise-shaping; the noise floor has a very gentle upward slope throughout the audio range.

Spectrum graphs from Sound Forge are attached (the little blip around 15.7 kHz may be due to interference from a nearby video monitor). Please disregard the "-90" in the filenames; that's not accurate with respect to the signal level at the times shown in these pictures. I recorded at various levels from around -60 dBFS down to around -90 to see whether the typical artifacts of truncated samples would be present at any level, and I didn't find any.

The surprise for me was the small difference between the 16-bit and 24-bit noise floor--maybe 2 or 3 dB, but that's all. I don't get a clear impression that it's worthwhile to record 24-bit with this recorder, even though it supports the format. [ETA: I'm looking in to this some more. In these tests, the record level control on the M10 was set lower than it would probably ever be set in any actual recording situation; I want to do the tests over with a more attenuated signal and a more realistic setting of the record level control.]

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 07:45:11 AM by DSatz »
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Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #347 on: January 14, 2013, 10:13:47 PM »
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.

I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right?  ;D
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Offline darktrain

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #348 on: January 14, 2013, 11:32:54 PM »
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.

I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right?  ;D

Actually as a mainly "less than open taper" myself that is the one thing I love about the M10, not once have I ever had a problem with the input level(nearly a 100 shows now), it would be very hard for that dial to turn, trust me, its very handy to be able to adjust the level. I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Offline audBall

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #349 on: January 15, 2013, 07:17:12 PM »
^ I second that. The gain knob takes a little *umph* to move so it's unlikely that levels would be adjusted. If it becomes a worry, just toss a little gaffer tape on the knob. Best of luck with your m10 travels!
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Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #350 on: January 15, 2013, 09:37:46 PM »
Alright, thanks guys. Guess I'll just have to be careful with it.  :)

I couldn't believe the sensitivity of the internal mics in high sensitivity mode. I was just whispering with the M10 several feet away wearing headphones and the mics were clearly picking up what I was saying.  :o
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #351 on: January 16, 2013, 01:36:18 AM »
Same here, my m10 gain knob isn't exactly easy to move!
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #352 on: January 16, 2013, 09:32:29 AM »
I finally broke down and bought a Sony PCM-M10 to replace my Edirol R-09HR. I got it today from B&H and all looks good, except I must say I'm disappointed that the hold switch doesn't stop you from changing the input level with the dial on the right side. I'm a low profile taper and this was the one feature on the R-09HR I always used since the recorder sits in my pocket while recording. You could set your levels in the beginning and not look at it until after the show. Without it, I feel like it will be very easy to bump into the dial and change the levels when not intended.

I suppose it's hardly worth complaining about. After all I don't think the dinosaur era Sony D5 even had a hold switch on it, right?  ;D

Actually as a mainly "less than open taper" myself that is the one thing I love about the M10, not once have I ever had a problem with the input level(nearly a 100 shows now), it would be very hard for that dial to turn, trust me, its very handy to be able to adjust the level. I wouldn't give it a second thought.

I consider it a positive feature as well. Love not having to take the recorder off hold to change levels and mine has never turned by accident. If you're really worried about it, though, a small piece of gaffer's tape over the level control works well.
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #353 on: January 28, 2013, 11:11:54 PM »
N-box>M-10 owner here and relatively infrequent .007 user. Just takes a few outings to get confident with the gear. And just a few more to learn where to record from. Then magic...

Offline JusTapin

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #354 on: February 18, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »
Now that I've decided to add this little gem to my bag of tricks, I've missed the late January sale of $199 at B&H.  Anyone aware of any President day sales I may have overlooked?  I've searched out Guitar Center, Sweetwater, B&H, Amazon etc.  It looks like they're all back up to the $249 pricing with some even higher.  Sweetwater.com is at least throwing in the 2 year warranty with free shipping and no taxes.

Can't believe I've spent two days reading through parts 1 thru 5 only to find a part 6 with 24 more pages. LOL  Great information though and it has occupied my time these last couple of days being down with some nasty bug. 

I've got my croakie CA-11's and CA-9200 on order so I've still got time to shop around for the best deal on this sweet deck so if any of you see a deal on it please message me.  I knew I should have bought it back in January, but that's my luck and fault for being indecisive. haha  Anyone know how often B&H puts these on sale?  From reading through the threads it seems like fairly often, however, I wasn't able to come to a conclusion on a pattern, eg, quarterly etc.  Thanks!
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Decks: Roland R-44, Marantz PMD661 (OCM), Sony PCM-M10

Offline Sebastian

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #355 on: February 18, 2013, 02:23:16 PM »
Anyone aware of any President day sales I may have overlooked?

This is probably not what you're looking for, but I got mine used from eBay for around $100. Works like a charm, and with solid-state recorders, there's really not much that can go wrong when buying used.

Offline JusTapin

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #356 on: February 18, 2013, 07:38:34 PM »
This is probably not what you're looking for, but I got mine used from eBay for around $100. Works like a charm, and with solid-state recorders, there's really not much that can go wrong when buying used.

You got a great deal!  If I could find one at or near a $100 I'd buy a used one, I'd jump all over it.  Most used M10 decks I've seen are usually in the $200 range and I'd just soon spend a little more for new one at that price point. 
Mics: AKG C460B, ck61/ck63, Naiant Actives/PFAs, AT835 cards/hypers (4.7 mod), CA-11 Croakies
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Offline earmonger

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #357 on: February 18, 2013, 10:52:02 PM »
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.

The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.

Offline JusTapin

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #358 on: February 19, 2013, 10:10:39 AM »
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.

The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.

earmonger, thanks for the insight!  I ran out of patience and ordered a black one from Guitar Center last night. I did get 15% off, but GC applies state sales tax, so the $219 sale price ended up at $235.  At least I now have one on order and won't miss another opportunity for some low profile recording.
Mics: AKG C460B, ck61/ck63, Naiant Actives/PFAs, AT835 cards/hypers (4.7 mod), CA-11 Croakies
Pre/BB: GD Lunatech V3, CA-9200, UA5, SD USBPre2, Neumenn BS48i-2
Decks: Roland R-44, Marantz PMD661 (OCM), Sony PCM-M10

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Re: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)
« Reply #359 on: February 19, 2013, 10:54:21 PM »
For what it's worth, I'd suggest you get black rather than "red" (actually burgundy). The red is glossy, a fingerprint magnet; the black is matte.

The only advantage to the red is that it looks so harmless it has often been mistaken for a point-and-shoot camera by security. "Just don't use the flash."
The black might look a little more serious. But if mine ever dies, it's getting replaced by the black version.

earmonger, thanks for the insight!  I ran out of patience and ordered a black one from Guitar Center last night. I did get 15% off, but GC applies state sales tax, so the $219 sale price ended up at $235.  At least I now have one on order and won't miss another opportunity for some low profile recording.

Smart move ;)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

 

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