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Author Topic: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help  (Read 8112 times)

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Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2023, 04:31:01 PM »
I couldn't wait any longer... It's been a few days. Being out in the sun for 20 minutes during the evening and just sitting in silica gel packets. I powered it on with the active cables. It does work. However, there is no low end and way less sensitive than the other capsule. I am not sure if drying it out more/giving it time will really do anything. I have sent an email to Schoeps. But I'd love to be wrong and just know there may be still a bit of moisture inside. The next few weekends are my busiest of the summer in terms of shows.

I'm not sure I would be applying power to wet (or still potentially wet) electronics.

Perhaps you can find some gear to borrow?

Doubt these are still wet. I dunno.

I've got other gear, so it's not the end of the world. But was hoping to run the Schoeps.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2023, 07:37:49 PM »
I couldn't wait any longer... It's been a few days. Being out in the sun for 20 minutes during the evening and just sitting in silica gel packets. I powered it on with the active cables. It does work. However, there is no low end and way less sensitive than the other capsule. I am not sure if drying it out more/giving it time will really do anything. I have sent an email to Schoeps. But I'd love to be wrong and just know there may be still a bit of moisture inside. The next few weekends are my busiest of the summer in terms of shows.

I'm not sure I would be applying power to wet (or still potentially wet) electronics.

Perhaps you can find some gear to borrow?

Doubt these are still wet. I dunno.

I've got other gear, so it's not the end of the world. But was hoping to run the Schoeps.

Buy a single MK4 to cover you, then either sell it or buy a second and sell the pair or get a pair of 41's if cashflow permits.   My fear is one of my caps goes down so I have 4's, 41's and now 21's.  Heading off for 3 weeks of festivals in Europe and bringing 3 sets of everything, just in case.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2023, 12:22:16 AM »
I couldn't wait any longer... It's been a few days. Being out in the sun for 20 minutes during the evening and just sitting in silica gel packets. I powered it on with the active cables. It does work. However, there is no low end and way less sensitive than the other capsule. I am not sure if drying it out more/giving it time will really do anything. I have sent an email to Schoeps. But I'd love to be wrong and just know there may be still a bit of moisture inside. The next few weekends are my busiest of the summer in terms of shows.

That capsule is not dried out yet. Any amount of water between the diaphragm and the backplate will not let it operate normally.
Silica gel packets that have been repurposed may already be saturated. If they are reused ones did you dry them out in the oven by heating them up?

Your best bet, even if you live in a humid environment, is to let lots of fresh air get to the capsule and don't power it on again for several more days. You may have already fried it by powering it up twice before it had a chance to dry out.

It's your capsule do what you want with it but if it was me I'd protect my investment and stop fooling around with it for a little while longer.

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Offline morst

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2023, 03:36:25 AM »
I heard that clean water does not damage electrical components as long as:
1 no power is applied until it is completely dry
2 there are no leaking components

I heard a (aprocyphal?) story about someone who visited the Neumann plant with his mics to be analyzed/repaired, and a tech there dunked one in water! Because it's safe!?!



OH yeah, a bag of uncooked rice is like a large dessicant. Place the mic INSIDE the bag of rice and close the bag. Wait a week.
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Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2023, 08:11:46 AM »
Nope, all of the packets were brand new. Most of them have not be desiccated.

I got this response from Schoeps today.
Quote
Good morning Ryan
 
Once the microphone has become wet inside we recommend a service here at the factory. There are highly insulated regions inside which will be affected by water. They will not have have the same behavior as before getting wet. So even if the capsule comes back to live it probably will not have the same quality anymore.
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2023, 11:11:17 PM »
I heard that clean water does not damage electrical components as long as:
1 no power is applied until it is completely dry
2 there are no leaking components

^^It depends. If the water is distilled water then this is true. Pretty common to wash circuit boards in soap, then distilled water. HOWEVER, this may not be true of the capsule itself, and it also may be the case that there are areas in a mic where water gets in and has a hard time getting out, and finally, any impurities in the water may cause problems when the water dries (e.g. leaving distillate that conducts electricity for example).

DPA 4060, 4061's are cleaned by dunking in clean water, swirling around a bit, and drying thoroughly. Wouldn't do it to another mic, though.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2023, 11:35:44 PM »
really sorry I didn't see this thread sooner; I was traveling. I'd like to explain a few things about Schoeps' reply.

What people here have said about water generally not hurting electronics can be true with some big "IF"s.
- IF the equipment wasn't powered on when it got wet
- IF the water is clean, preferably distilled (salt water in particular = death, or acidic solutions)
- IF all the water is removed and the humidity brought down soon afterwards so that exposed mechanical parts and leads of components don't corrode
- IF all electrical connectors and contacts are carefully cleaned afterward, including internal ones

BUT not all these things were true in this case. And more fundamentally, microphone capsules aren't pure electronics. They're electroacoustical transducers--mediators between two realms, subject to the hazards of both. And both aspects can be harmed by any intrusion of what I assume was more or less typical U.S. tap water. Pure H2O [shout out to Richard C.] could evaporate back out with no chemical interaction and no residue. For a regular stereo/hifi amplifier or the like, all you'd need to do is dry everything and clean the contacts and controls, because dirt is ever-present and it migrates into the worst possible places (Murphy's law). But tap water has all kinds of minerals and other stuff in it to varying degrees, and it leaves deposits, which can be corrosive and can create a path for electrical leakage.

The capsule in a traditional DC-polarized condenser microphone, despite being at extremely high impedance itself (especially at low frequencies) operates as a voltage source--so the gate of the FET (or the grid circuit of the tube) has to have even higher impedance, in the billions-of-Ohms range. If even a small region of the capsule's interior near (or on!) the diaphragm or backplate gets paved with something that's in the "mere" tens of millions of Ohms, the capsule will tend to discharge partially through that other pathway, perhaps intermittently, causing noise, distortion and/or loss of sensitivity.

What GLouie pointed out is also relevant. For microphones that use single-diaphragm construction, as all Schoeps microphones do, omnidirectional capsules are sealed (other than in the front, of course) while directional capsules have acoustic ports and some way of creating a precise amount of friction behind the backplate, so that rear-incident sound is delayed exactly as much going through the capsule as around it, thus meeting on opposite sides of the diaphragm where their forces, being in like phase, cancel out. (What I just described is how cardioids work; other patterns except for omni and figure-8 use the same principle but apply it differently.)

To delay a sound wave without diminishing it or altering its frequency response involves very precise arrangements of particular materials, including soft ones. If the thickness or arrangement of those materials isn't exactly right, the capsule's response will be noticeably affected. And if you get them wet, they may not dry out exactly the same as they were before.

So according to Microsoft Word I just used nearly 500 words to tell you that Schoeps is right; the capsule should be sent in for service. (The Colette cable was probably protected from harm by the presence of the capsule.)

And I'm sorry that this happened--I know the awful feeling.

But if it's any consolation, at Schoeps the same people repair capsules as make them full-time; in fact under current arrangements, capsule repairs are being performed mainly by the most senior person in the department--one of my favorite humans in my favorite part of the company, who's been at her job for over 35 years and has seen it all, and still cares.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 10:14:36 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2023, 08:35:53 AM »
But if it's any consolation, at Schoeps the same people repair capsules as make them full-time; in fact under current arrangements, capsule repairs are being performed mainly by the most senior person in the department--one of my favorite humans in my favorite part of the company, who's been at her job for over 35 years and has seen it all, and still cares.

Appreciate your response, DSatz. I sent the mics via FedEx yesterday. I think it's just best for Schoeps to look over them. Plus the caps have never been matched. One capsule was always 2-3db lower than the other. I want them to function properly. So it's good to know the repair technician will take care of these :)

Thanks everyone for your insight. Lets just hope this never happens again. Made me also realize I may need a backup pair of capsules.
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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2023, 12:49:57 PM »
But if it's any consolation, at Schoeps the same people repair capsules as make them full-time; in fact under current arrangements, capsule repairs are being performed mainly by the most senior person in the department--one of my favorite humans in my favorite part of the company, who's been at her job for over 35 years and has seen it all, and still cares.

Appreciate your response, DSatz. I sent the mics via FedEx yesterday. I think it's just best for Schoeps to look over them. Plus the caps have never been matched. One capsule was always 2-3db lower than the other. I want them to function properly. So it's good to know the repair technician will take care of these :)

Thanks everyone for your insight. Lets just hope this never happens again. Made me also realize I may need a backup pair of capsules.

good luck and yeah a backup set.  A pair of MK41s would work well given the types of shows you do.  Each one works well in all situations but there are some places MK41s are better suited.  I am taping the same band in 3 venues and looks like I will use each pair at a different venue.

Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2023, 12:37:36 PM »
good luck and yeah a backup set.  A pair of MK41s would work well given the types of shows you do.  Each one works well in all situations but there are some places MK41s are better suited.  I am taping the same band in 3 venues and looks like I will use each pair at a different venue.

I've wanted to grab a pair of MK41s. But that price stings a bit lol.
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2023, 12:52:01 PM »
I went swimming for 30 minutes with an iPhone.  It was dead.  I put it in a drawer for a couple months, and lo and behold, it worked.

Be super patient. 

If you can't do that, send it to Schoeps for repair. 
Regards,
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mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2023, 01:31:09 PM »
I went swimming for 30 minutes with an iPhone.  It was dead.  I put it in a drawer for a couple months, and lo and behold, it worked.

Be super patient. 

If you can't do that, send it to Schoeps for repair.

Already sent off to Schoeps. With how much the caps cost, I don't want to risk it. Plus I am super impatient lol. I'd like to have these for the summer.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2023, 07:19:00 AM »
Ryan, I'd be interested to know how this worked out. I understand that you've gotten the capsules back; have you tried them out, and does their sensitivity match better now?

By this point their manufacture has become so consistent (the old "+/- 2 dB" guideline is way out of date) that between any two Colette capsules of the same type, of relatively recent manufacture, there shouldn't be enough difference in sensitivity to be audible under most circumstances. The fact that there was such a difference may well have indicated a need for service even before the dunking incident.

May I ask what the paperwork said about the work that was done?

(As Ryan is aware, by coincidence I was in Germany visiting the company when his capsules arrived there.)

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2023, 12:51:56 PM »
running some  Schoeps mics when german band KRAFTWERK playes near the Schoeps headquarter later this year sonds like a win/win situation  :yahoo:
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Offline RyanJ

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Re: Schoeps Cap Dunked in Water - Help
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2023, 09:41:22 PM »
Ryan, I'd be interested to know how this worked out. I understand that you've gotten the capsules back; have you tried them out, and does their sensitivity match better now?

By this point their manufacture has become so consistent (the old "+/- 2 dB" guideline is way out of date) that between any two Colette capsules of the same type, of relatively recent manufacture, there shouldn't be enough difference in sensitivity to be audible under most circumstances. The fact that there was such a difference may well have indicated a need for service even before the dunking incident.

May I ask what the paperwork said about the work that was done?

(As Ryan is aware, by coincidence I was in Germany visiting the company when his capsules arrived there.)

--best regards

Yep! They actually arrived back yesterday! I asked if I could buy some capsule containers from them and they put them in the otter box at no charge. No slip as to what they did. But I emailed them and said it was some general cleaning and adjusting minor small parts like contacts or sealings. They both now match, which is great!

Also, was at Shaky Knees a year ago and it was a dust bowl. I was literally blowing dirt out of the side slots. So I’m glad I did send these to Schoeps. Only €70 for both. Very reasonable.
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