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Author Topic: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**  (Read 83352 times)

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Offline eric.B

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #345 on: October 06, 2005, 07:37:29 PM »
Any word on whether the 2GB autosplit feature will be included in this firmware release?   That 2GB limit really bit me in the a** last night stealth taping the Green Day concert.  I was recording at 24/48 and didn't realize they had reached the 2 hour point.  The recording stopped at 1:55 and ended up missing the last 15 minutes of the show.  Unless I know the band I'm recording plays short sets, I'll be recording future shows at 16/44.1 until this 2GB issue is resolved in the firmware.

just buy another one and have it on standby..  hit record on MT #2 at 1hr 50min..   easy

edit:   that is.. if you have the equiptment to do so..
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 07:40:18 PM by webericb »
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Offline Ed.

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #346 on: October 06, 2005, 08:39:03 PM »
what mics did you run into the MT? can you comment on how does the pre/a>d sound? inquiring minds...

you should check out the beck show that freelunch put up on dime, he ran dpa4061's > batbox > mt.  the venue is a horrible sounding venue and i think his recording sounds better than the show did tht night.  i'm quite impressed.

also, there's comps up on cotapers.org that todd r (i think) did between a v3, an sbm1, and the mt.


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Offline sygdwm

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #347 on: October 06, 2005, 08:45:18 PM »
i didnt see know about the comp. thanks.
mics: (4)akg c460b(a60,mk46,ck1x,ck1,ck2,ck3,ck61,ck63)
pres: oade m148/edirol wmod ua5
recorders: marantz stock671/oade acm671/fostex busman vintage fr2le

(P.S.: On a threaded discussion board like this one, there's no need to repeat someone's post when you reply to them; everyone can see all the messages in the thread.)

Offline Ed.

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #348 on: October 06, 2005, 10:16:14 PM »
i'm only listening on the crappy headphones plugged into my computer (too lazy to go get a good set) but i think it sounds pretty good.  i'm quite impressed actually.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline udovdh

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #349 on: October 07, 2005, 01:26:48 AM »
Believe it when I see it...copied from rec.audio.pro

Here's the information I received in the email:

 - not implemented: Mono recording
 - not implemented: long Boot-up time NOT shortened
 - not implemented: record line level over 1/8" plug

 - implemented: L/M/H switch order corrected
 - implemented: 24bit recording over S/PDIF
 - implemented: play & delete files from "Files" menu
 - implemented: pops and scratching noises during monitoring when
starting/stoping recording gone
 - implemented: hold switch will now also prevent accidential
switch-off

 - planned: rec/pause mode with monitoring (not sure if already in new
FW)
 - ? no info received about monitoring when recording S/PDIF
Not too bad if they keep up the rate. (new update in a month, I wish?)
The essentials like the battery duration, 2GB auto-open, etc are not there yet.
The status of the `not implemented` items above means they can be done in software?

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #350 on: October 07, 2005, 06:32:24 AM »
The essentials like the battery duration, 2GB auto-open, etc are not there yet.
The status of the `not implemented` items above means they can be done in software?

when you say "yet" it implies that you expect those "essentials" to be fixed in a future firmware update.  While I agree that something can be done to deal with the 2GB issue (and I really hope that they do it soon), the battery duration is not something that they can "fix" in a firmware update.  it is what it is, and is not what they advertised.  just get a small external pack if you need more than 2-3 hours.

From my point of view, there are only 3 issues with the current firmware:
  • 24 bit S/PDIF
  • 2 GB limit with no work around in place
  • the unit freezes too often, and with a power down and power up, I may miss the start of a set.

of those issues, the first will be fixed with this firmware update, and no mention of the other two.  I can only hope that the new firmware also provides more general stability, and the unit won't freeze up anymore.

I guess my main point in posting was: there are many things that can be fixed via firmware.  but there are some that cannot.  it is important to realize which is which, so we can focus our complaints to them on the issues that can actually be fixed.

Offline udovdh

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #351 on: October 07, 2005, 07:14:13 AM »
The essentials like the battery duration, 2GB auto-open, etc are not there yet.
The status of the `not implemented` items above means they can be done in software?
when you say "yet" it implies that you expect those "essentials" to be fixed in a future firmware update.
Yup..

Quote
While I agree that something can be done to deal with the 2GB issue (and I really hope that they do it soon), the battery duration is not something that they can "fix" in a firmware update.
I.e.: the cpu has no control over the charging process? Cannot be tweaked a bit?
I read that these Li-Polymer batteries need a 1C charge at steady voltage until the current drops to 0.
And that the voltage was the key to charge correctly (but not do damage) or to under- or overcharge.
If the voltage is set in hardware and is on the safe side a small mod could fix it? (smd resistor?)

Quote
it is what it is, and is not what they advertised.  just get a small external pack if you need more than 2-3 hours.
2-3 hours without phantom is ridiculous.

Quote
From my point of view, there are only 3 issues with the current firmware:
  • 24 bit S/PDIF
  • 2 GB limit with no work around in place
  • the unit freezes too often, and with a power down and power up, I may miss the start of a set.
I can agree with the latter two; the first one is nice but not necessary for my environment (I have yet to hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96 with cheap but pro mics and batterybox, also there is no small ADC to accompany the MT?).

Quote
I guess my main point in posting was: there are many things that can be fixed via firmware.  but there are some that cannot.  it is important to realize which is which, so we can focus our complaints to them on the issues that can actually be fixed.
If it is really a hardware bug a PCB revision could fix it but I guess M-Audio won't replace the initial PCB's.
To correctly realize which is which, info on the PCB design could be helpful. (i posted some stuff about the ADC datasheet with questiosn about the line signal path)
Which is the most direct route to put bugs under M-Audio's eye?

Offline neutrino

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #352 on: October 07, 2005, 07:45:57 AM »
Is anyone else experiencing the recording meters fading or completely blanking after 30+ minutes of recording. I taped QOTSA(acoustic in-store) last night and after 30 minutes or so, all I could see on the display were the peaks. I stopped and restarted the recording after the first hour at 24/96(2gigs) but the full display of recording levels was still not present, just the peaks. BTW, I was running mk4(DIN) > lemosax > MT24/96.
dB-
CA14/OM14 > A10
Sony SBM-1 Oade mod

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #353 on: October 07, 2005, 07:51:08 AM »
Does anyone have a dark LCD?  At the normal contrast setting, mine is almost unreadable. I have to crank the contrast up to 1 or 2 in order to unblacken the background.

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #354 on: October 07, 2005, 08:07:41 AM »
first off, thanks for the good early morning discussion.

I.e.: the cpu has no control over the charging process? Cannot be tweaked a bit?
I read that these Li-Polymer batteries need a 1C charge at steady voltage until the current drops to 0.
And that the voltage was the key to charge correctly (but not do damage) or to under- or overcharge.
If the voltage is set in hardware and is on the safe side a small mod could fix it? (smd resistor?)

I agree that things could be tweaked, but I don't think major gains on battery life will happen.  also, if we're now going into "small mods" that go beyond the scope of just firmware fixes, thats'a different story, and much more expensive for M-Audio.  I don't see them offering up to replace some internal parts to gain some battery life.

Quote
Quote
it is what it is, and is not what they advertised.  just get a small external pack if you need more than 2-3 hours.
2-3 hours without phantom is ridiculous.

if you need longer run times, run an external pack.  how much run-time can we realistically expect from something like this.  before the MicroTrack, one of the batteries that I carried was larger than the whole MicroTrack, let alone the battery in the MicroTrack.  To acheive the small form factor, it's clear that they skimped on the internal battery, unfortunately.  that's just the way it is, rediculous or not.

Quote
Quote
From my point of view, there are only 3 issues with the current firmware:
  • 24 bit S/PDIF
  • 2 GB limit with no work around in place
  • the unit freezes too often, and with a power down and power up, I may miss the start of a set.
I can agree with the latter two; the first one is nice but not necessary for my environment (I have yet to hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96 with cheap but pro mics and batterybox, also there is no small ADC to accompany the MT?).

from this comment, it's clear that we have very different uses in mind.  I only care about recording a 24 bit S/PDIF signal from my V3.  I don't care about the analog inputs at all, because I'll never use them.  So we must both realize that we're going to have different measures when determining whether or not the MicroTrack is a success or failure.  As far as not hearing a difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96, well then, I'd ask what you're listening on.  For me, the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit is like night and day.

and for a small external A/D, if the internal one is not good enough for you, there is always the Core-Sound Mic2496.  it is the same size as a Denecke AD-20.  I know many people don't like Len at all and won't recommend his products.  I don't really have any experience with Len, so I'll refrain from that whole discussion.  But I do have a few 24 bit recordings made with the Mic2496, and they sound pretty good (a couple Phil shows, a Jorma show, and a couple others as well).  If anyone would like to hear those, I'd be happy to set you up.  just shoot me a PM.

Quote
Quote
I guess my main point in posting was: there are many things that can be fixed via firmware.  but there are some that cannot.  it is important to realize which is which, so we can focus our complaints to them on the issues that can actually be fixed.
If it is really a hardware bug a PCB revision could fix it but I guess M-Audio won't replace the initial PCB's.
To correctly realize which is which, info on the PCB design could be helpful. (i posted some stuff about the ADC datasheet with questiosn about the line signal path)
Which is the most direct route to put bugs under M-Audio's eye?

True, but I don't think it's realistic to expect that M-Audio is going to give us details on the internal design of the MicroTrack.  just my opinion though.


Is anyone else experiencing the recording meters fading or completely blanking after 30+ minutes of recording. I taped QOTSA(acoustic in-store) last night and after 30 minutes or so, all I could see on the display were the peaks. I stopped and restarted the recording after the first hour at 24/96(2gigs) but the full display of recording levels was still not present, just the peaks. BTW, I was running mk4(DIN) > lemosax > MT24/96.
dB-

Yes, this has been noted before, and I've experienced as well.  not sure what's going on, but the recording continued without any problems.  (I was running 16/48 via S/PDIF from my V3).  for me, it's nto that big of a deal, because I use the levels on the V3.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 08:09:20 AM by JasonSobel »

Offline udovdh

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #355 on: October 07, 2005, 08:38:39 AM »
first off, thanks for the good early morning discussion.
You're welcome!

Quote
I.e.: the cpu has no control over the charging process? Cannot be tweaked a bit?
I read that these Li-Polymer batteries need a 1C charge at steady voltage until the current drops to 0.
And that the voltage was the key to charge correctly (but not do damage) or to under- or overcharge.
If the voltage is set in hardware and is on the safe side a small mod could fix it? (smd resistor?)

I agree that things could be tweaked, but I don't think major gains on battery life will happen.  also, if we're now going into "small mods" that go beyond the scope of just firmware fixes, thats'a different story, and much more expensive for M-Audio.  I don't see them offering up to replace some internal parts to gain some battery life.
OK, but the battery issue still could be a PCB design mistake. Theoretical life was estimated at 8 hours but due to the implementation (charging, PCB power consumption etc) things worked out less well.

Quote
Quote
Quote
it is what it is, and is not what they advertised.  just get a small external pack if you need more than 2-3 hours.
2-3 hours without phantom is ridiculous.

if you need longer run times, run an external pack.  how much run-time can we realistically expect from something like this.  before the MicroTrack, one of the batteries that I carried was larger than the whole MicroTrack, let alone the battery in the MicroTrack.  To acheive the small form factor, it's clear that they skimped on the internal battery, unfortunately.  that's just the way it is, rediculous or not.
An out of production (more or less 'old') portable Sony DAT deck can run a 120 meter DDS2 tape for 4+ hours of audio and still have juice left for rewind, etc.
The Sony is a delicate mechanical device.
The M-Audio has fewer moving parts, no motors and better battery technology than two Duracell AA cells.
If it cannot record 4 hours straight (I remember 8 hour runtimes advertised?) it makes me wonder.


Quote
Quote
Quote
From my point of view, there are only 3 issues with the current firmware:
  • 24 bit S/PDIF
  • 2 GB limit with no work around in place
  • the unit freezes too often, and with a power down and power up, I may miss the start of a set.
I can agree with the latter two; the first one is nice but not necessary for my environment (I have yet to hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96 with cheap but pro mics and batterybox, also there is no small ADC to accompany the MT?).

from this comment, it's clear that we have very different uses in mind.  I only care about recording a 24 bit S/PDIF signal from my V3.  I don't care about the analog inputs at all, because I'll never use them.  So we must both realize that we're going to have different measures when determining whether or not the MicroTrack is a success or failure.  As far as not hearing a difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96, well then, I'd ask what you're listening on.  For me, the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit is like night and day.
I will use small single ended mics. I will be recording in environments with limited SNR.
I am listening on gear that has sufficient `quality` and is above average (NAD entry level set, see forum for details).
Why would a recording in such a limited environment with my mics 24 bits (8+ bits of noise) sound better than 16 bits? (both `24`-bit ADC, etc)
I am not a nay-sayer but have yet to hear the benefits of higher resolution recordings with my gear. This means I am interested in 88 Khz at bits I guess?
When the 2GB issue is fixed I can do serious testing.

Quote
and for a small external A/D, if the internal one is not good enough for you, there is always the Core-Sound Mic2496.  it is the same size as a Denecke AD-20.  I know many people don't like Len at all and won't recommend his products.  I don't really have any experience with Len, so I'll refrain from that whole discussion.  But I do have a few 24 bit recordings made with the Mic2496, and they sound pretty good (a couple Phil shows, a Jorma show, and a couple others as well).  If anyone would like to hear those, I'd be happy to set you up.  just shoot me a PM.
I know the AD-20 ('inbox'?) and it is not small in my context. I went from a D7 with mic bodies to a D100/M1 with battery box and I don't want to go back, size-wise.

Quote
Is anyone else experiencing the recording meters fading or completely blanking after 30+ minutes of recording. I taped QOTSA(acoustic in-store) last night and after 30 minutes or so, all I could see on the display were the peaks. I stopped and restarted the recording after the first hour at 24/96(2gigs) but the full display of recording levels was still not present, just the peaks. BTW, I was running mk4(DIN) > lemosax > MT24/96.
Yes, this has been noted before, and I've experienced as well.  not sure what's going on, but the recording continued without any problems.  (I was running 16/48 via S/PDIF from my V3).  for me, it's nto that big of a deal, because I use the levels on the V3.
It's still a bug. I do not watch or adjust levels during a show but functionality should not go away during a recording.
If this one is reproducable, just report it to M-Audio and persist...

Thanks for the discussion.
I am interested in the benefits of 24-bit in 'live' environments. Higher sampling rates are clear to me but the bit-depths make me wonder.

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #356 on: October 07, 2005, 08:58:46 AM »

From my point of view, there are only 3 issues with the current firmware:
  • 24 bit S/PDIF
  • 2 GB limit with no work around in place
  • the unit freezes too often, and with a power down and power up, I may miss the start of a set.

of those issues, the first will be fixed with this firmware update, and no mention of the other two.  I can only hope that the new firmware also provides more general stability, and the unit won't freeze up anymore.


Just to clarify, the post I copied from rec.audio.pro didn't really have much context to it.  I'm not sure if the answer from M-Audio Germany was in response to specific questions the rec.audio.pro poster had asked or if it was inclusive of all the impending firmware upgrades.  Just because the 2gig limit issue wasn't addressed in that message doesn't necessarily mean it won't be covered in this upcoming firmware release, although from the conversation Frank had with the M-Audio rep in the other thread, it doesn't seem like the 2gig limit was a top priority.

Offline udovdh

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #357 on: October 07, 2005, 09:07:00 AM »
Just because the 2gig limit issue wasn't addressed in that message doesn't necessarily mean it won't be covered in this upcoming firmware release, although from the conversation Frank had with the M-Audio rep in the other thread, it doesn't seem like the 2gig limit was a top priority.
I think that the priorities are:
    - stable software: no freezes, no metering going away, etc (i.e.: must have)
    - 2GB limit (auto-open new file without missing a bit) (i.e.: must have)
    - playback metering (i.e.: must have shortly)
    - other features like limiter, etc (i.e.: nice to have)
Those are of course just my opinions.

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #358 on: October 07, 2005, 09:10:48 AM »
I will use small single ended mics. I will be recording in environments with limited SNR.
I am listening on gear that has sufficient `quality` and is above average (NAD entry level set, see forum for details).
Why would a recording in such a limited environment with my mics 24 bits (8+ bits of noise) sound better than 16 bits? (both `24`-bit ADC, etc)
I am not a nay-sayer but have yet to hear the benefits of higher resolution recordings with my gear. This means I am interested in 88 Khz at bits I guess?
When the 2GB issue is fixed I can do serious testing.

IMO, the jump from 16 bit to 24 bit makes a bigger difference than higher sampling rates.  I think the advantage of 24 bit for concert recording is the greater resolution it provides, not the dynamic range.  it's true that most concerts probably have a noise floor of -40dB or so, so 16 bit is sufficient to capture that dynamic range.  however, at 24 bit, everything is reproduced more accurately, and sounds more realistic.  I guess for me, it's easier for me to close my eyes and imagine that I'm back at the show.   That's what it's all about, right? :)

Quote
I know the AD-20 ('inbox'?) and it is not small in my context. I went from a D7 with mic bodies to a D100/M1 with battery box and I don't want to go back, size-wise.
I guess "small" is a relative term.  as far as external gear goes, it doesn't get much smaller than an AD-20 (yes, it is the "inbox").  I guess a Sony SBM-1 is a tad smaller, but not much more.  If those pieces of gear are too big, then I think you're stuck with using the internal A/D of the MT, and you've got to hope it's good enough.

Quote
Quote
Is anyone else experiencing the recording meters fading or completely blanking after 30+ minutes of recording. I taped QOTSA(acoustic in-store) last night and after 30 minutes or so, all I could see on the display were the peaks. I stopped and restarted the recording after the first hour at 24/96(2gigs) but the full display of recording levels was still not present, just the peaks. BTW, I was running mk4(DIN) > lemosax > MT24/96.
Yes, this has been noted before, and I've experienced as well.  not sure what's going on, but the recording continued without any problems.  (I was running 16/48 via S/PDIF from my V3).  for me, it's nto that big of a deal, because I use the levels on the V3.
It's still a bug. I do not watch or adjust levels during a show but functionality should not go away during a recording.
If this one is reproducable, just report it to M-Audio and persist...

yes, it is a bug and it should be fixed.  just that IMO, there are other, higher priority items (like the 2 GB fix).

Just to clarify, the post I copied from rec.audio.pro didn't really have much context to it.  I'm not sure if the answer from M-Audio Germany was in response to specific questions the rec.audio.pro poster had asked or if it was inclusive of all the impending firmware upgrades.  Just because the 2gig limit issue wasn't addressed in that message doesn't necessarily mean it won't be covered in this upcoming firmware release, although from the conversation Frank had with the M-Audio rep in the other thread, it doesn't seem like the 2gig limit was a top priority.

thanks for the clarification.  I certainly hope the 2 gig issue will be resolved, but it also seems to me that it wasn't their top priority.  hopefully sooner rather than later it'll get fixed.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: M-Audio MicroTracker details **PART IV**
« Reply #359 on: October 07, 2005, 10:11:48 AM »
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

 

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