Topic: Best Interconnects?

[Busman Audio]

Ok I will bite..

I do hear differences in quality wire as opposed to regular old mogami, canare stuff. I know that a lot of others here have heard some of the differences between these and silver wire also so it is a pretty well documented topic that different wire has different tonal qualities to it. The scientific data does not need to be there for you to hear things with your ears.

I have chosen to use van den Hul wire even to wire all my internal wiring in my mics. The reason.... there is a big difference. The signal becomes more defined in all frequencies, along with making it feel more open ( which of course comes from the extended definition), Also there is a quite a bit less audible distortion to the signal.  Now, this is the difference between the standard copper wiring inside the mics and the van den Hul MCS-150m wire. To me it was a night and day difference. If I feel my guitar chops are up to posting for the world to hear I will get some examples up soon.

I listen on studio monitors or my Thiel home speakers to hear these differences. You will not hear any differences if you use computer speakers, mp3 files, or the general consumer gear so if you don't use good playback equipment, then high end cables are a hard sell.

I have come up with a good example using basic physics.  Think of a water hose that has small obstructions inside it.. The water will flow but not efficiently. It could warm up or cool down due to the blockages in the hose which also changes the quality of the water and if the hose is not the best material maybe it will pick up trace chemicals or particulates along the way.  You will still get water but not the same water that came from the tap.
Now picture a really nice hose with no obstructions and made of the best materials known to allow smooth transmission of your water supply. This hose will give you the water more efficiently with a better flow and hopefully less particulate matter than the cheap hose, you will end  up with a much closer match to the water that came out of the tap than the hose with obstructions a shabby materials. This doesn't even bring into account the workmanship of the ends of the hoses.

Wouldn't you chose the better more expensive hose if you needed the higher quality and efficency??

There really are differences in quality and signal character cables....   Please always remember to use your ears for music first!!

my 2 pennies

[Dede2002]

I've been dealing with this cable thing since my old audiophile era. Yes, I did hear some differences sometimes. Not all the time.
Anyway, my conclusion is that the final sound quality in a given sound system ( recording or not) will be as good as your worst link, not your best. My mics are originally wired with Mogami cable. So I'm using the very same cable as interconnect. That being said, I'm sure the sound quality of my recordings would not improve if I replace my Preamp > Recorder cable with a more expensive cable.
My 0.00000000002 cents.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Benched,

I'm in Northern VA, 3hrs south of Philly so not exactly pop-by distance but please feel free to PM me for my phone number if you think you'll be around here.

I absolutely agree that if something can be heard, one should be able to measure that difference.  I would love to do some lab tests as suggested but I'm not sure I have the right equipment.  I have access to spectrum analyzers and assorted test equipment but its all designed for work at L-Band frequencies.  I'm not sure it will do what we want.  

The reason I jump in on these threads is because whenever someone starts asking about cables there is a predictable pause to let people speak their opinions and then the same tired comments start coming out about wire differences can't be tested using a valid fixture or nothing could be distinguished .  I jump in doing my best to provide an example of a workable test evnvironment that can be reproduced by anyone and describe how I compensate for possible variations in the IO ports.

I'll admit that what I hear may be psychological but if it is the effect sure isnt' related to price because a follow up to the linked test was made with 4 cable pairs and I ended up selling a pair and keeping a pair that cost half as much.  I'm willing to accept that some of the cables may have been defective or poorly constructed, or whatever anyone wants to blame it one.  But I have heard a difference in my system, whatever the reason.  And it wasn't always the case before I got to a certain level of playback gear. 

So when you go to your listening sessions, you should definitely get them to demonstrate differences in wire if they claim that wire matters.  One possible test fixture would be to run SPDIF coax and SPDIF optical out of the same transport into two identical DACs because most transports offer dual outputs, then compare the sound of interconnects between the two DACs and a preamp.  If any cable skeptics discount this proposed fixture on the basis of optical verses coax digital cable, I will surely laugh my balls off.   If you can get the shop to do this, you can use the same interconnects in both runs initially to test that there is no percieved difference in sound, then start swapping wires.  I'd love to read a full report of the gear you tried and what you thought, even if you heard no difference.

I'll also admit that the audio industry is rife with BS so I'm not sure Audiophile Mag is necessarily good company to be in with. 

[Busman Audio]

I will say that I have run some low end spectrum analysis on some of my tests in my studio and do see the difference from just the wire.  Again I really will provide this.  the problem I have with doing the work is that people then just say "oh you doctored this soemhow" 

Also, it's not that big of a deal to me that some can't hear the differences. I usually just think that it is too bad that some can't hear it because it is there and I also couldn't begin to say who's claims are bs and who's aren't. I am one of the firm believers that I have to hear it for myself to believe it. I didn't believe cable could make a difference until I started wiring my mics with the van den Hul wire and now I am a true believer. Why else would I spend $50 a meter on wire for my products if I really didn't believe it changed it. I could stick with the old wire and make that much more profit.
I want to hear the very best sound that I can out of my mics so therefore I do everything that I can with listening tests for each change to verify that the changes are worth my time and money.

I don't ever think we will all agree but it is always worth discussions to hear all theories. This is how we all gain knowledge about what we use.

I would love to see truly scientific tests if people have the time and energy to devote to them.

[Church-Audio]

The simplest test is this

Take a pair of cables plug them into a cd player out of the cd player into a recorder. And make three wav files one with expensive cables one with cheap cables and one with quality mogami cable. Then post the wav files and we can all take a listen. Using a spectrum analyzer is a waste of time. Why because if there was a difference dont you think that the guys that sell the $3000 cables would already have these graphs? They dont because there is no difference between a quality cable and the snake oil some of these guys sell. So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain.. And I hate to break it to you but nobody has a spectrum analyser for a brain. The other factor with doing these tests is the load if you change the load on a cable and how it reacts then you cant possibly get reliable results from analysing the signal unless you use a prerecorded source ( with the three cables ) and simply play it back through the same signal chain into your analyser to remove the load factor as an influence on the signal because the same factor would apply to each of the three recordings.

Chris

[Chilly Brioschi]

Proper interconnects are 300 ohm, I think.
I have heard 75 and 150 from some manufacturers.
At 3 meters of wire, relative to audio frequency, even up to 40KHz, it shouldn't matter at all by generally accepted calculations.

I have always had decent gear, Dynas of various types, some Hafler, broadcast surplus, and now a JoLida with some cap upgrades.

My scrapbox has had various types of wire from pure silver (JAN surplus silver wire used to be cheap-ish), plated, nearly any gauge of copper,  hardlines of various types, uhf low loss coax at 75 ohms, microwave surplus, all manners of twisted-pairs (these I still find noisy), bits and pieces,.... in short, all sorts of stuff.

Needless to say, I have tried all that I could, and in various combinations.

That was back in the days when my hearing tested very well, and I
was able to demonstrate absolute pitch.
I never heard any wire make a significant improvement or degradation, except when unshielded wire caused noise.

These days, my hearing is more acute, but technically failing.
That is, I know more about what to listen for, and what I am hearing, but have less "bio-machinery" to hear it.

I will always keep an open mind, but I would love to see a phase-plot, or something that will show why a piece of wire can be worth so much. Until I hear it, or see something that I can logically connect to a psycho-acoustic difference, I am a doubter.

[sygdwm]

going by busman's analogy of the garden hoses, would there be a difference (perceived or scientific) in passing analog signals vs. digital (1/0) on different cables? it seems to me that in the analog domain there could be more of a difference (perceived or not) than a digi cable passing data. no?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain..
Chris

Chris, I have to assume that "some of you" wasn't directed my way since I have clearly described my test environment, how I eliminated the issue of cable swapping and auditory memory, and how I compensated for the incredibly tiny possibility that either parallel output or parallel input might produce some variation?  You keep posting as if there is no possible way to swap between two signal paths without the latency issues - issues on which I completely agree with you.  If you feel that is not a valid arrangement, I'm open to comments.

Do you think that my suggestion above regarding the parallel DACs is not a valid configuration for Benched to use when he visits the listening room?  Would you care to address directly why this sort of fixture might not be a valid test case?  Personally I like it a lot better than swapping wires but for completely different reasons than you wrote.  I always suspect some funny business might be happening behind the scenes when the cables are swapped around behind gear. 

Your suggested test (listening to samples) is potentially valid however it is completely open to scepticism because people will argue that if you hear no difference it is because your playback system is lacking.  So even your recommended test lacks the validity of pure measurement.  Any test that involves the human ear as the sampling device is trivial to argue against.


It seems like a sample by sample comparison or plot would yield the most precise analysis.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

would there be a difference (perceived or scientific) in passing analog signals vs. digital (1/0) on different cables?

Yes.  Construction defects can increase the probability of bit errors in the SPDIF stream.  Some cables raise jitter (I can't recall if it's the optical or electrical that have worse characteristics).  Jitter has been reported to be audible, although I can't say I know what it sounds like.  I believe the issue of jitter is effectively resolved since almost all modern devices have big buffers ahead of the DAC. 

For DTS or AC3 over SPDIF there is no effect from jitter.  The audio frame gets buffered and decoded ahead of the DAC.  The only issue here being bit errors sufficient to cause the audio frame to be discarded which is audible.  We can hear the drop outs when we discard audio frames in our lab.

[Busman Audio]

I also agree that there are possibilities for problems with digital cables but I would not go as far to say that they could make an audible difference on the quality of the music other than artifacts.

I use the analogy of the hose for those that aren't quite up to speed on some of this.

When i am doing listening tests it is after recording then I put the files up right on top of each other so I can start one then stop and start the other with no break in the music. I feel this is as close as i need to get for my purposes. I would welcome anyone to come and listen in my mix room and tell me they can't hear the differences. I usually have lay people come in and listen without telling them what to listen for or even why I really want them to listen. I just say please listen to these files and give me your thoughts.

My wife who I would not consider an audiophile usually always hears the exact same differences I hear and that helps me to not trust just my own ears.

Back to the interconnects....   you have lots of info just take what you can a leave the rest and trust your own judgement.

[Church-Audio]

So although some of you claim to be able to hear a difference I would love to know how you conducted your listing tests because in the time it takes to swap cables out you have already forgotten how it sounded and if you did not you have a spectrum analyser for a brain..
Chris

Chris, I have to assume that "some of you" wasn't directed my way since I have clearly described my test environment, how I eliminated the issue of cable swapping and auditory memory, and how I compensated for the incredibly tiny possibility that either parallel output or parallel input might produce some variation?  You keep posting as if there is no possible way to swap between two signal paths without the latency issues - issues on which I completely agree with you.  If you feel that is not a valid arrangement, I'm open to comments.

Do you think that my suggestion above regarding the parallel DACs is not a valid configuration for Benched to use when he visits the listening room?  Would you care to address directly why this sort of fixture might not be a valid test case?  Personally I like it a lot better than swapping wires but for completely different reasons than you wrote.  I always suspect some funny business might be happening behind the scenes when the cables are swapped around behind gear. 

Your suggested test (listening to samples) is potentially valid however it is completely open to scepticism because people will argue that if you hear no difference it is because your playback system is lacking.  So even your recommended test lacks the validity of pure measurement.  Any test that involves the human ear as the sampling device is trivial to argue against.


It seems like a sample by sample comparison or plot would yield the most precise analysis.

Its not directed at you at all. I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That shoud expose any magic if there is any

Chris

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

All my playback gear has unbalanced IO so all my interconnects are unbalanced.  Is there a best way to go from unbalanced to balanced without affecting the results?  I have a V3 so could sample at 24/192 for analysis in a SW processing tool. 

Maybe Nick could you send the reality cables down for another test?  My notes indicated a difference in high frequency presence so that seems like the easiest thing to look for first is a variation in the HF chart between the two pair.

[Nick's Picks]

Hmm...
I think I dismantled them and made myself a bunch of fancy power cables.

[jerryfreak]

True but do you think the quality of the interconnect will affect the final sound of your recording?  I'm a firm believer that it will.  It's like fighting a house fire with a garden hose.  It will put water on it but will it get the job done?

quality of the interconnect is paramount. unfortunately, there is little to any difference in quality of materials or construction beyond readily available cheap cables like canare starquad, etc.

as far as bang for your buck, it could be spent a lot better places in your rig.

your analogy would be more applicable to using zip cord or cheap molded rca cables instead of mic cable.

ymmv, but i'd bet you'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between two mic cables of a given gauge and shielding

edit: just read the whole thread, it seems im in good company. i am a firm beleiver that the human mind has the ability to conclude anything it wants when you already spent your money and are trying to justify it.

I tend to go with the cheapest available option that sounds good to my ears. first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

[jerryfreak]

And I hate to break it to you but nobody has a spectrum analyser for a brain.

we'll see about that, buddy (analyzes post)