Topic: Omni mic choices for open rigs....

[adrianf74]

Hey everyone:

Just had an interesting experience over the weekend at a local three-day festival where open rolling is allowed.  My buddy used his AKG 480 HC's in DINa and flew them at close to 10 feet.  I ran my CA-14 omnis with dead rats at 8.5 feet on Friday right next to his.  My CA-14 omnis sound much richer and cleaner (not to mention less artificial) than the AKG's.  I've noticed this a few times now.   My stand had an issue on Saturday so I recorded from about 1/4 way back from the stage and had horrific (but expected) results.  I then ran the CA-14 omnis at 10 feet for two of three acts on Sunday; for Jon Anderson, I ran the CA-14 cards with dead rats.

Again, the cards sounded artificial.  I can EQ the heck out of the show and get something listenable but I still prefer the omnis.

That said, if I wanted to upgrade my omnis, I know there are mics like the DPA 406x but I don't know if I want to drop $1k and those are more about 007 than anything.  If I have to do that, I have my CAFS which will do what I need them to do.  Price point is between $400 and $600 (maybe a touch more).  Used is okay.    I'm running a Sony PCM-M10.    Or... am I better just to stick with the CA-14's?

I'm sure this question has been asked enough times but I know mics do change and am interested to hear what people think. 

TIA.

[Gutbucket]

Personally, I havent found another omni I like nearly as much as the 4060 for less than $800/pair new (which is what a new pair should cost you, used for less).  I don't consider them "more about 007 than anything" just because they are small. They are great open and their small size makes putting them where you want and rigging the setup much easier than larger/heavier mics.  I have other great mics, but if I had to let them all go but one pair, those would be the ones.

You might check out the Countryman B3 (about $500 new/pair) which some like better and is right in your price range.

[rmx]

Hey everyone:

Just had an interesting experience over the weekend at a local three-day festival where open rolling is allowed.  My buddy used his AKG 480 HC's in DINa and flew them at close to 10 feet.  I ran my CA-14 omnis with dead rats at 8.5 feet on Friday right next to his.  My CA-14 omnis sound much richer and cleaner (not to mention less artificial) than the AKG's.  I've noticed this a few times now.   My stand had an issue on Saturday so I recorded from about 1/4 way back from the stage and had horrific (but expected) results.  I then ran the CA-14 omnis at 10 feet for two of three acts on Sunday; for Jon Anderson, I ran the CA-14 cards with dead rats.

Again, the cards sounded artificial.  I can EQ the heck out of the show and get something listenable but I still prefer the omnis.

That said, if I wanted to upgrade my omnis, I know there are mics like the DPA 406x but I don't know if I want to drop $1k and those are more about 007 than anything.  If I have to do that, I have my CAFS which will do what I need them to do.  Price point is between $400 and $600 (maybe a touch more).  Used is okay.    I'm running a Sony PCM-M10.    Or... am I better just to stick with the CA-14's?

I'm sure this question has been asked enough times but I know mics do change and am interested to hear what people think. 

TIA.

Check out these guys http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/ $500 for a matched pair. Great sounding mics

[gkatz]

the nevaton MCE400's could be a choice as well. numerous shows on the archive recorded with these small omnis. they've sold in the yard sale for ~300 before.

[acidjack]

If you're talking about open taping, you could also consider some used AKG 460/480 omnis, or possibly Busman or Peluso omnis (both available new for less than $1000 with every capsule).  I'd at least listen to some Busman samples; if you don't have an open rig as of yet, for $500 that Busman setup would give you every pattern for open taping (i.e., better cards than what you have, plus hypers and omnis), if you like the sound of it.  Though I'd probably first try to find some used 460s, if I planned longer-term to want a full open setup.

The comparisons you had don't seem ideal - AKG hypercards outdoors aren't something I'd imagine sounding very good in that setting.  CA-14 cards outdoors well.... aren't exactly AKG hypercards. 

That said, the last time I ran outdoors (which is not all that often) we had a whole mess of mics on a stand at various heights - DPA 4021s ORTF and AKG 414s in omni mode 3' split; Schoeps Mk5s in omni mode DIN, Schoeps Mk41s DINa, and lower on the stand.

Obviously not a "comp" in any sense of the word, but my prefs were actually toward the AKG 414s split and, surprisingly, the 41s, and the combo of the two was really nice.  The 5s kind of got the shaft since they were both lower on the stand and too close together for ideal purposes.

A mix of SBD+the 414s is here:  www.nyctaper.com/?p=6501 (streaming tracks)

From the same night, SBD + 41s + 5s: www.nyctaper.com/?p=6378 (different band, also two streaming tracks)

Like I said, not a comp, but interesting.

[aaronji]

Maybe I am misreading the original post, but it seems like you are not interested in low profile mics?  That would, in addition to the 406x, rule out the B3 and the MCE400, as well as some other choices, like the MKE2...

You could get a pair of CK62 caps in that price range, but that would only be a half solution. 

[adrianf74]

Thanks to everyone so far... I'm sure there'll be some more to read and respond to soon enough...

@Gutbucket: I'm not discounting the DPA 4061's - I've thought about them quite a few times now, I'm just trying to see what other 'sensible' options exist in mics -- especially if I can save a few $$.   I know the DPA's have an advantage in that I can use them in pretty low-pro situations as well.  The B3's are also something I've been pondering but am trying to find the best solution - Ideally, I'd love to buy them all and find the right fit but that's not very realistic (not to mention that my better half might kill me).

@rmx: I'll have to listen to some captures with the Avenson's to see what they're like as I don't see them mentioned that often in these parts [doesn't mean they're bad, either].

@gkatz: I know several people have commented on the MCE400's and they seem like pretty decent mics as well. 

@acidjack: YGM.

@aaronji: I'm not overly worried if they're big, small or somewhere in-between - I'm just trying to find what will give me the best bang for the buck when I can run an open solution.

[Todd R]

Another option are the Audio Technica AT4022 omnis.  I'd tell you what I really thought about them since I just got a pair, but sadly, I haven't had a chance to run them yet. 

They have a good reputation though, and I've run AT4041 cards before and they were very nice for the money.   The AT4022's usually retail for $350 each, though Amazon has them now for $257 each new.

I've heard good things about the Avensons, but they are power hungry which has always scared me off.  48v at the max spec'd phantom draw of 10ma each.  A 10ma draw is a fairly large drain on your batteries (not good for field powering), and it seems that many field preamps can't supply that kind of mic draw (even though it is within the phantom power spec'd range). 

What preamp will you be using with the omnis, assuming you get full-sized mics?

[adrianf74]

@ToddR: Power hungry isn't a good thing but I can always bring extra batteries if I needed to.  Most of the outdoor shows I go to run maybe 3-5 hours of actual run time per day (I don't usually bother going to the whole thing... just what I'm interested in).

The pre-amp is the million-dollar question.  Assuming I get full-szied mics, it'll depend on the mic itself.  I'm open to suggestions but am thinking about a Naiant variant.[/quote]

[Gutbucket]

I'm not overly worried if they're big, small or somewhere in-between - I'm just trying to find what will give me the best bang for the buck when I can run an open solution.

If size/weight isn't a concern, you might consider finding a pair of ADK TLs.  Outstanding bang for the buck IMO, and extremely versatile for open situations with switchable omni, card, hyper and figure-8 patterns.  As an switchable LD mic, the omni pattern is not a true pressure omni like most SDCs if that matters to you, but they sound great.

[JackoRoses]

a vote for the akg 482's (aka ck62) for omni choice They are the 2nd most used capsule in my bag after the cards. Of course I'm partial to akg since I run em

[rastasean]

I would go with the at4022 or countryman b3. I like both and they are almost equally as quiet.

[adrianf74]

Thanks everyone for their input on my choices.  Since my buddy has the 480's already, I spoke to him about picking up some CK62 caps.  I'm hoping maybe I can find a pair in the yard once the season's over and then use his gear when I get the open option.

[SmokinJoe]

If you like the sound of your CA-14 omnis, maybe you should just stick with them.  All these things that other people consider an "upgrade" may not be better to your ears.  I would kinda' suck to spend $1000 on some "better mics", then decide you like the sound of the CA14's better.  I tried CK62's when I had them and they just weren't the ideal flavor for me, same with Nak omnis, and ADK SC-T Omnis.  I did like the JZ BT201 omnis, but in the end I like the sound of AT853 omnis just about as well, and they are relatively cheap.  ADK-TL omnis are nice, you just need a rugged setup.

One time I ran my JZ omnis for a "brew fest".  One of those places where they give you a cup and you can walk to every vendor and say "fill 'er up" as many times as you want.  I'd been running those omnis outside a lot lately, and loving it, so I did the same here.  In the beginning the tape sounded great because nobody was paying attention to the band, everyone was off tapping kegs.  2 hours later, everyone was shit-faced and decided the best place to hang out and gab was under my mics.  The point is, sometimes omnis are the right tool for the job, and sometimes they aren't.  When they are, even reasonably cheap omnis will sound almost as good as high end ones.  When they are wrong for the situation, it's better to run directional mics.  I would love to drop $1k or $2k for a nice pair of Earthworks omnis, but I know I would only use them a few times a year, and even then they aren't going to sound "10 times better" than my AT853's.

[adrianf74]

If you like the sound of your CA-14 omnis, maybe you should just stick with them.  All these things that other people consider an "upgrade" may not be better to your ears.  I would kinda' suck to spend $1000 on some "better mics", then decide you like the sound of the CA14's better.  I tried CK62's when I had them and they just weren't the ideal flavor for me, same with Nak omnis, and ADK SC-T Omnis.  I did like the JZ BT201 omnis, but in the end I like the sound of AT853 omnis just about as well, and they are relatively cheap.  ADK-TL omnis are nice, you just need a rugged setup.

One time I ran my JZ omnis for a "brew fest".  One of those places where they give you a cup and you can walk to every vendor and say "fill 'er up" as many times as you want.  I'd been running those omnis outside a lot lately, and loving it, so I did the same here.  In the beginning the tape sounded great because nobody was paying attention to the band, everyone was off tapping kegs.  2 hours later, everyone was shit-faced and decided the best place to hang out and gab was under my mics.  The point is, sometimes omnis are the right tool for the job, and sometimes they aren't.  When they are, even reasonably cheap omnis will sound almost as good as high end ones.  When they are wrong for the situation, it's better to run directional mics.  I would love to drop $1k or $2k for a nice pair of Earthworks omnis, but I know I would only use them a few times a year, and even then they aren't going to sound "10 times better" than my AT853's.

I know what you're saying here. That's one of the reasons I refuse to drop $1k on a pair of DPA 4061's - the cost won't justify end result (it won't be "that" much better).

As far as the CK62's go, my buddy already has the bodies, cables, etc., so to run the caps would be nice when I could.   I can always run my M10 and CA-14 cards as an "alternate" recording if I have to.   My buddy also thought, for the minimal expenditure if we go halves, then it's not so bad.

[Myco]

My vote is for the MG270's! 

[George]

I know what you're saying here. That's one of the reasons I refuse to drop $1k on a pair of DPA 4061's - the cost won't justify end result (it won't be "that" much better).

The dpa's are excellent sounding mikes, but like any other rig a lot of it has to do with location and conditions around you (ie loud vs quiet audience).  I've pulled some very nice dpa recordings as wel las some horrid recordings before selling them off.  It's not the dpa's fault, but mine.   Why?  Location!  If I have loge seating any a par view, what could I do?   Although, I love the versatility of mike bodies that allow you to change out the patterns/elements.

[Cheesecadet]

My vote is for the DPA 4061s and you can get them for way less than $1000 if you're patient.  I run them open and lopro with great results.  Like some other posters mentioned, location is always a good thing no matter what pattern mics you ultimately end up with.

In case you are interested here are a couple snippets from a lopro gig I did last week with my 4061s that sound damn good to these ears! 

The Funk Ark

El Beasto
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BZHVI1PQ

Funky Southern
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NFX8N2ZY

[adrianf74]

I know what you're saying here. That's one of the reasons I refuse to drop $1k on a pair of DPA 4061's - the cost won't justify end result (it won't be "that" much better).

The dpa's are excellent sounding mikes, but like any other rig a lot of it has to do with location and conditions around you (ie loud vs quiet audience).  I've pulled some very nice dpa recordings as wel las some horrid recordings before selling them off.  It's not the dpa's fault, but mine.   Why?  Location!  If I have loge seating any a par view, what could I do?   Although, I love the versatility of mike bodies that allow you to change out the patterns/elements.

I've said this before and I think I'll say it again... just because the 4061's are 10x the price of my CA-14 omnis, does this mean the recording will be 10x better?  5x better?  2x better?  And then it's a matter of luck, location, etc.   I got burned the other night when I ran the cards instead of the omnis but thought I was making the right choice.  I've been looking at the AT853's for when I don't have access to my buddy's 480's/tascam 680 (or if I can't run those). 

[adrianf74]

My vote is for the DPA 4061s and you can get them for way less than $1000 if you're patient.  I run them open and lopro with great results.  Like some other posters mentioned, location is always a good thing no matter what pattern mics you ultimately end up with.

In case you are interested here are a couple snippets from a lopro gig I did last week with my 4061s that sound damn good to these ears! 

Nice clips.  And yes, the 4061's do sound good.  I just don't have the cash kicking around to even drop $700 on them - they're what you call "not girlfriend/wife approved" not to mention I've got some other priorities that are higher at the moment.  So the question is would the AT853's be a good compromise for when I have to roll solo and can't access the 480's with CK62?  I know the B3's are also an option.

[Belexes]

Busman's w/omni caps > Little Box > M10

[F.O.Bean]

I just listened to samples on the Schoeps website, and the MK2's sound KILLER!

[paulbaptiste]

also vote for some 853 omni's, love these caps, i've owned DPA 406X, and have Busmans (though haven't run the omni's, but the money/patterns can't be beat), had all variants of CA gear, and still prefer the 853 omni's.

[mepaca]

The Rode nt5s with optional omni caps sound fantastic particularly for the price. Considering that I also own
4060s, 414s, 480s w/omni caps and Sennheiser mkh20s, that is high praise indeed.

[skaggs]

I just listened to samples on the Schoeps website, and the MK2's sound KILLER!

I run these mics and i personally think they are the bomb.  That said, it seems like $$ is an issue, so I would recommend the ADK TL's if you can find them.  I have run side-by-side with Barrett Miller, and he has pulled some damn comparable pulls.  Of course he has a v3 and concert mod Tascam HDP2.  Good luck, what ever you do get the cables to run from moderate  (3 ft) to large splits (15 ft or so).  i ran about 17 feet at telluride bluegrass using mk2s>v3(analog)>minime>PMD 66, and it was the shizzle.  Barrett and i plan to run this combo at Blues and Brews.  You will have to assess which venues you go big in and those you do about 3-6 foot splits.  enjoy, omnis rule at outdoor festivals. 

richard

[F.O.Bean]

I just listened to samples on the Schoeps website, and the MK2's sound KILLER!

I run these mics and i personally think they are the bomb.  That said, it seems like $$ is an issue, so I would recommend the ADK TL's if you can find them.  I have run side-by-side with Barrett Miller, and he has pulled some damn comparable pulls.  Of course he has a v3 and concert mod Tascam HDP2.  Good luck, what ever you do get the cables to run from moderate  (3 ft) to large splits (15 ft or so).  i ran about 17 feet at telluride bluegrass using mk2s>v3(analog)>minime>PMD 66, and it was the shizzle.  Barrett and i plan to run this combo at Blues and Brews.  You will have to assess which venues you go big in and those you do about 3-6 foot splits.  enjoy, omnis rule at outdoor festivals. 

richard

I would LOVE to hear some samples of the mk2>v3

[skaggs]

there are a couple of my recordings up on bt.etree under rickyskaggs.  i have yet to figure out the samples.  be careful, you'll be wanting a pair of those 2s, then you'll see the light and have to get a pair of 4's.    

keep on tapin in the free world!!!! 

[F.O.Bean]

there are a couple of my recordings up on bt.etree under rickyskaggs.  i have yet to figure out the samples.  be careful, you'll be wanting a pair of those 2s, then you'll see the light and have to get a pair of 4's.    

keep on tapin in the free world!!!! 

My next capsule purchase is a pair of grey mk22's I figure I cant afford a card[mk4] AND a subcard[mk21], so I might as well get the mk22's And of course, a single mk8 as well!

[jlykos]

In your price range, I second the ADK TL suggestion.  They sound fantastic and are very versatile.  They are a bit on the large side, but if you can deal with it, they are outstanding for not only that price, but for any price.  If you like the AKG sound, you may also want to look into the AKG Blueline series (39x).  You can pick up a used set in your price range.

At any price, the Gefell M270s can't be beat for omni patterns.

[cashandkerouac]

Busman's w/omni caps > Little Box > M10

another vote for Busmans!  i own the BA-L2 mics and love 'em for outdoor recording using the omni setting.

[OOK]

I have used a the following omni's:
AT853 omni's loved them....these were the older version.
MBHO Omnis..loved these as well...still have them a tad bright but I like a little crispiness.
RODE NT2000 these would bass you face.....they would literally suck every last drop of bass out of the air...  I wasn't real crazy about them...always had to roll it off a little.
Senns k6 omni's.....to much high end emphesis which I normally like but I don't like this line of senns.
Avenson STO's....probably my favorite...super linear... these too are bass hogs but in a good way... fabulous up close...treble drops off a little further back...but not much.
DPA 4060's....great mic stealth or open..... haven't made a bad recording yet with these.

A friend uses Neveton's mce400...its one of the best little omnis I have heard....I might like them better then my DPA's but I try and talk myself out of it just so I don't have to buy a set.  these recently went up in price.

Same friend uses Gefells...270...these a real nice too...but you need big bucks for these..

All this to tell you my favorite is probably the avenson STO's...

But that could change.....

Good luck in your quest.....mics are like icecream... so many flavors.... all really good if you like the flavor.... if not, its still icecream...

peace OOK

[stevetoney]

Go to the archive and search on a show I did of Toubab Krewe in 2009 (search Toubab and Tonedeaf, you should find it).  From the sweet spot, I ran CA-14 ($150 new) side-by-side with a pair of U89s ($6400 new).  You'll be amazed how good the CA-14's sound compared to the u89's.  I suggest that you save the anxiety and money and keep your CA-14 omni's.  These are great mics and when it comes to omni's, as others have already commented it's as much about mic placement and the general environment as it is about the mic, so you could have ummmm 42 times what you have invested in your mics, but they might not sound any better than your CA-14's if the conditions aren't right.

[adrianf74]

Go to the archive and search on a show I did of Toubab Krewe in 2009 (search Toubab and Tonedeaf, you should find it).  From the sweet spot, I ran CA-14 ($150 new) side-by-side with a pair of U89s ($6400 new).  You'll be amazed how good the CA-14's sound compared to the u89's.  I suggest that you save the anxiety and money and keep your CA-14 omni's.  These are great mics and when it comes to omni's, as others have already commented it's as much about mic placement and the general environment as it is about the mic, so you could have ummmm 42 times what you have invested in your mics, but they might not sound any better than your CA-14's if the conditions aren't right.

@tonedeaf: I know exactly what you're thinking.   I just ran the CA-14 omnis about 100' from the stage (soundboard area) a couple of weekends back and got another great capture.  I'm still waiting to hear my friend's capture who used his AKG 480 C's.  Conversely, and rewinding in time, I used the CA-14/c + RAT-14 > ST-9100 Pre > M10 and ran the CA-14/o > CA-UBB > friend's M10.  He used the AKG 480 HC's > DR-680 flying at about 10 feet with mine about 1' lower.  My recordings were both unusable with the omnis sound distant and the cards sounding extremely artificial.  His recording sounded great that time around.  Last week, I did a capture of a well-known local band show at a club I had been to back in July.  At the July "rock" show, I couldn't get anywhere near the stage so I used my cards while standing next to the board.  At last week's show, I used my omnis standing about 10-15 feet from the stage and the recording was quite nice; bass was pretty dominant but it's always easier to roll off in post than to not have it to begin with.   I was VERY happy with the capture this time out except for some issues at the board during the first two songs.  That said, I will fully agree with this (and I've said spending 10-50x the money isn't going to net you a 10-50x better sounding capture.
 
@OOK: It's funny, the first pseudo-omni mics I rolled with were Core Sound Binaurals back in the early-to-mid '90s.   When I got back into taping in 2002, I was strapped for cash so I picked up a pair of "Giant Squid Audio Labs" omni mics.  These were used for about 25-30 shows I went to and I got some pretty sweet captures including a few shows by an artist who despises his shows being circulated that managed to get pressed to silver CDs several times over (without my consent).  I then switched to SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/c) which netted me interesting/mixed results.  Two years back, I picked up the CAFS-Omni and last year I picked up my CA-14's with the preamp.   I must admit, I'm quite happy with the CA-14 omnis.  I'm not so sold on the cards as I find they're a little more artificial sounding but compared to the SP-CMC-8's I owned, these are better.   Right now, I'm leaning towards the Nevaton MCE400's or the Countryman B3's if I can find them cheap enough.  Thinking that it's easier to travel "light," I was thinking about the B3's and getting them terminated at 1/8" so I can use the ST-9100 to power them -- I believe I read that I can't do this with the MCE400's because there is some stuff in the XLR connector that the mic requires (correct me if I'm wrong).  That said, if I see some used B3's come up, I might just buy those and then dump my CAFS and CA-14 omnis and run the one set exclusively. 

Ultimately, I'm leaning towards trying to find a pair of used CK62 caps that I can use with my friends 480's.  I think that will be the ultimate open solution with little investment.   I'm just trying to figure out the other side now (for the not so open situations).   

[Myco]

I have used a the following omni's:
AT853 omni's loved them....these were the older version.
MBHO Omnis..loved these as well...still have them a tad bright but I like a little crispiness.
RODE NT2000 these would bass you face.....they would literally suck every last drop of bass out of the air...  I wasn't real crazy about them...always had to roll it off a little.
Senns k6 omni's.....to much high end emphesis which I normally like but I don't like this line of senns.
Avenson STO's....probably my favorite...super linear... these too are bass hogs but in a good way... fabulous up close...treble drops off a little further back...but not much.
DPA 4060's....great mic stealth or open..... haven't made a bad recording yet with these.

A friend uses Neveton's mce400...its one of the best little omnis I have heard....I might like them better then my DPA's but I try and talk myself out of it just so I don't have to buy a set.  these recently went up in price.

Same friend uses Gefells...270...these a real nice too...but you need big bucks for these..

All this to tell you my favorite is probably the avenson STO's...

But that could change.....

Good luck in your quest.....mics are like icecream... so many flavors.... all really good if you like the flavor.... if not, its still icecream...

peace OOK

I agree with these statements 100%. I run the Gefell 270's in open situations, and the Nevaton MCE400's in stealth situations.

[F.O.Bean]

Go to the archive and search on a show I did of Toubab Krewe in 2009 (search Toubab and Tonedeaf, you should find it).  From the sweet spot, I ran CA-14 ($150 new) side-by-side with a pair of U89s ($6400 new).  You'll be amazed how good the CA-14's sound compared to the u89's.  I suggest that you save the anxiety and money and keep your CA-14 omni's.  These are great mics and when it comes to omni's, as others have already commented it's as much about mic placement and the general environment as it is about the mic, so you could have ummmm 42 times what you have invested in your mics, but they might not sound any better than your CA-14's if the conditions aren't right.

So true. I'm going to release the TV On The Radio set from Moe,.Down, Steve! Its my mk41>lemosax + CA-14 Cards>SP BB>R09. You'll all be amazed at how good the CA14 sounds, at least IMO!