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Author Topic: MK21 vs MK22?  (Read 7709 times)

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Offline checht

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2021, 11:40:29 PM »
Exactly.

Ran 621's from 1996-2003. In the right spot, aimed well, in the right venue, with a great FOH engineer they are sublime.

Ended up not having that combo enough so switched to mk4's then mk41's, all in an attempt to find more forgiving setup that didn't pick up as much crowd crap.

Now considering adding a pair of 21's back to my kit for when I have the perfect situation.


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Offline JiB97

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2021, 04:02:03 PM »
To update this thread…

I ran the mk21 for nights 3 and 4 this weekend at Phish in Vegas. I was FOB, and the mics were more or less pointed at the stacks. The results from n3, which I think is a slightly cleaner tape compared to night 4, are here:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=614316

My read is that this microphone is much more demanding with respect to being set up correctly… but when in the right spot and in the right configuration it makes absolutely sublime recordings. Realistic, not as hard edged in the treble as I’m used to it sounding, extremely accurate in the bass, and a stellar blend of band sound and the room.

If I wanted to spend less time thinking about set up, I’d get the 22. But this cap is going to demand much of me, requiring that I become a better taper. But it’ll be worth it whenever I pull a tape I’m proud of.

I remember you ran one of them but was unsure which.  Can you pm me a link to your pull from night 1?  I'd like to A:B it with my pull.  I just listened to parts of my CCM4 pull and the MS pull so I have a good idea of where the windy spots are.

I just saw this, apologies for delay. My tape is on relisten/phish in, if you want lossless PM me and I’ll upload the tape for you.

Vegas was a nice chance to hear a lot of gear, especially since we were in a very similar spot each night, and on pretty much a similar plane too with the mic bars being shared.

I linked all the sources uploaded so far in this post: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=198193.0

If I can remember I will try to update that page whenever a new source gets upped.
 
Nice to meet you, hope you made that Monday flight back to Austin without issue!
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Offline cd2go

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2021, 08:14:16 PM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Offline wforwumbo

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2021, 11:03:03 AM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Don’t question your order.

For nights 1 and 2 of Vegas, I ran the mk4 in exactly the same configuration as I ran the 21 nights 3 and 4 - 30 cm, 60 degrees. That can be found here: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=614288

I think the mk4 is a fine cap capable of stellar recordings, and I’m very happy with this tape. The mk4 is a much more forgiving cap w/r/t set up and sensitivity, and if I weren’t in a great sounding spot I’m confident it still would have made a great tape. A good way for me to word it is - I think the mk4 has a lower ceiling than the other Schoeps caps (the mk21 and mk22 sound we all lust after), but it also has possibly the highest floor of any cap. To my ear, it’s got plenty of bass, decent audience chatter rejection, a pleasant and musical treble, and the sweetest midrange of any microphone I have ever heard. It will always be the cap I reach for first, and I will always love the sound of tapes made with the mk4.

Arguably, only the 41 is a more reliable cap as far as pulling a “clean” tape, but I’ve heard many mk41/mk41v tapes that I liked but didn’t love, and I’ve never heard a mk4 tape I didn’t love.

Take it from someone who bought, sold, then bought again a pair of 4’s. Keep them, you’ll love the tapes you make with them. Add a pair of 21s or 22s to your locker down the line.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

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Offline aaronji

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2021, 11:47:33 AM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Out of curiosity, why did you choose CCMs over one of the CMC1 options? It's nice to be able to swap out capsules, I think.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2021, 12:27:44 PM »
For nights 1 and 2 of Vegas, I ran the mk4 in exactly the same configuration as I ran the 21 nights 3 and 4 - 30 cm, 60 degrees. That can be found here: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=614288

I think the mk4 is a fine cap capable of stellar recordings, and I’m very happy with this tape. The mk4 is a much more forgiving cap w/r/t set up and sensitivity, and if I weren’t in a great sounding spot I’m confident it still would have made a great tape. A good way for me to word it is - I think the mk4 has a lower ceiling than the other Schoeps caps (the mk21 and mk22 sound we all lust after), but it also has possibly the highest floor of any cap. To my ear, it’s got plenty of bass, decent audience chatter rejection, a pleasant and musical treble, and the sweetest midrange of any microphone I have ever heard. It will always be the cap I reach for first, and I will always love the sound of tapes made with the mk4.

I was just listening to the recording linked above last night.  It's a great example of mk4 used in an optimal stereo arrangement for that room and recording position and one I believe any taper here would be proud of. I was listening specifically to provide wforwumbo personal feedback on that recording, and in addition to the well-balanced room / direct sound and stereo imaging qualities, I took note of the portrayal of the midrange in particular.  That recording is an excellent example of the right pattern used the right configuration for the situation, imho.

The optimal microphone will vary with situation (and recording approach), and the situations one finds oneself in most frequently also varies from taper to taper.  Given all that, the mk4 pattern is the most widely applicable pattern of the range, all things considered.   To me it represents a reference baseline for a straight 2-channel stereo-pair recording - the solid Goldilocks middle around which the other patterns apply in more specific ways.
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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2021, 12:57:57 PM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Out of curiosity, why did you choose CCMs over one of the CMC1 options? It's nice to be able to swap out capsules, I think.

+1. Going with the MK4 + CMC1L saves you $55 over the CCM4, plus you get the ability to swap capsules. The modular version is only 1.5mm longer and weighs the same.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 01:08:06 PM by DavidPuddy »

Offline checht

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2021, 02:08:03 PM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Don’t question your order.

For nights 1 and 2 of Vegas, I ran the mk4 in exactly the same configuration as I ran the 21 nights 3 and 4 - 30 cm, 60 degrees. That can be found here: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=614288

I think the mk4 is a fine cap capable of stellar recordings, and I’m very happy with this tape. The mk4 is a much more forgiving cap w/r/t set up and sensitivity, and if I weren’t in a great sounding spot I’m confident it still would have made a great tape. A good way for me to word it is - I think the mk4 has a lower ceiling than the other Schoeps caps (the mk21 and mk22 sound we all lust after), but it also has possibly the highest floor of any cap. To my ear, it’s got plenty of bass, decent audience chatter rejection, a pleasant and musical treble, and the sweetest midrange of any microphone I have ever heard. It will always be the cap I reach for first, and I will always love the sound of tapes made with the mk4.

Arguably, only the 41 is a more reliable cap as far as pulling a “clean” tape, but I’ve heard many mk41/mk41v tapes that I liked but didn’t love, and I’ve never heard a mk4 tape I didn’t love.

Take it from someone who bought, sold, then bought again a pair of 4’s. Keep them, you’ll love the tapes you make with them. Add a pair of 21s or 22s to your locker down the line.

QFT.
I've been using 41's mostly because I don't record in taping sections, and have developed an intollerance for crowd noise. Otherwise I'd stick w 4's. Soo much time spent in RX spectral repair these days...
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
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Offline JiB97

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2021, 11:24:41 PM »
Great info and examples here, but now I’m starting to question the pair of CCM 4 I have on order  :facepalm:

Out of curiosity, why did you choose CCMs over one of the CMC1 options? It's nice to be able to swap out capsules, I think.

+1. Going with the MK4 + CMC1L saves you $55 over the CCM4, plus you get the ability to swap capsules. The modular version is only 1.5mm longer and weighs the same.

I didn't even know Schoeps made this type of thing, that's a great idea similar to the DPA 4023, or whatever the ID that DPA has going on with their removable capsule lemo-connector series of mics.
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Offline cd2go

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2021, 08:22:28 AM »
Out of curiosity, why did you choose CCMs over one of the CMC1 options? It's nice to be able to swap out capsules, I think.

You are not wrong, but I don’t forsee room in the budget for more than one Schoeps capsule, and for the amount and situations I record in, it’s the Goldilocks pattern for me. I have never felt the *need* for hypers, and while useful they never sound quite natural enough for me to want own a pair. I would like to add a set of omnis, but that can be done with sufficient sound quality with less costly options. I like the compactness, reliability and simplicity of the single-cap hardwired setup, I ran 4022 for 10 years and loved them for that.

But alas, the 21/22 will have to be dream mics deferred…can’t wait to play with the 4’s  :headphones:

Don’t question your order.

A good way for me to word it is - I think the mk4 has a lower ceiling than the other Schoeps caps (the mk21 and mk22 sound we all lust after), but it also has possibly the highest floor of any cap.

Thanks for the reassurance, ha. I like this analogy, good way to think about it.

Offline aaronji

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2021, 12:52:58 PM »
^ Gotcha. Like I said, I was just curious. No doubt they sound great!

Offline wforwumbo

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2022, 12:39:10 PM »
More info to add to this thread…

I’ve been using the 21 aggressively in the studio for recording acoustic instruments. What has surprised me most is how tight the capsule really is - it is NOT as omnidirectional as we like to think it is across the frequency spectrum. It really does not follow the behavior - especially in the near and mid fields - that the plots suggest. Just goes to show, we need to trust our ears and not our eyes.

In reality, the 21 is moderately omnidirectional in the treble frequencies, but has maybe a +/- 30 degree range for midrange, and bass is even narrower. The cap is really a lot more focused where we expect to hear musical content, and the top end is close to omni. This to me feels counter intuitive to what plots and traditional Omnis would expect. It also means this is arguably the most demanding cap I’ve ever touched - I’ve had an easier time using my mk2 pair than the mk21.

And that treble response is a huge difference between the 21 and 22 - the 22 is MUCH rounder and softer in the treble. To my ear, it’s closer to a 4 with a bit more bass, and is in the direction of the 2 as far as opening the 4 up whereas the 21 is more in the direction of the 2H or 2S.

I’ve started running the 21 closer to AB, and I’ve liked the results. Traditional NOS in my opinion is MUCH too wide. I think the 21 might be ideal for PAS theory given how tight its midrange and bass throw are, especially with respect to its open diffuse treble response. I need to collect more data when taping to speak further to this.

I think the 22 is an easier cap to get a great sounding recording with. I think the 21 is aggressively demanding and I need to spend more time learning it, but once I figure it out I know the 21 will “put me in the room” in a way the 22 can’t.

I have a mk22 pair coming in the mail this week, I may try to run both the 21 and 22 for Perpetual Groove next week. If I decide to use both in the same configuration, I’ll post the results here. I’m more likely to run my 21 in AB and the 22 in NOS, but the direct comparison is definitely tempting… if not this week, then definitely soon.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

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Offline wforwumbo

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2022, 10:19:21 AM »
We have data! On Saturday, I taped Lettuce from the front-left corner of the SBD cage at Stubb's. I ran my mk21s in 34cm AB and my mk22s in 30cm/60 degrees, both in the same SRS mount so these are for all intents and purposes "in the same location":

mk21: https://archive.org/details/lettuce2022-11-12.mk21.flac16
mk22: https://archive.org/details/lettuce2022-11-12.mk22.flac16

It's not a 1:1 mapping, but enough for us to get a preliminary comparison. My high-level view... it's possible to make a great tape with either cap if you deploy them correctly.

The 21 by nature of its more open pattern brings more bass, and since the 21 was designed for use as a mains pair I suspect that Schoeps is doing a bit of diffuse field compensation in the treble to help with stereo imaging; this gives the 21 a more scooped and "hi-fi" sound. I think the average non-audiophile would prefer a recording made with the 21s if there's sufficiently low audience chatter. From a distance, I'm noticing that the mk21 is less tight in its bass response as I suggested in my last post; up close in my studio is where the off-axis treble gets accentuated, which really highlights that this mic was designed as a mains pair and not as a spot mic.

Given the 22 was designed as a spot mic, I'd bet that the capsule has no diffuse field compensation, which is backed up by the treble response being much softer compared to the 21; the soft treble plus slightly reduced bass response means the 22 has that signature holographic Schoeps midrange placed on a pedestal, front and center for audiophiles to get lost in. And it's not like the 22 is hurting for bass, there's still a fat meat and more forward low-midrange that I don't hear in my mk4 pair (which were missing from this gig as they're in Germany getting cleaned).

I think most tapers would prefer owning the mk22 for all-around taping work, it has a higher floor compared to the mk21. I've learned the mk21 is easier to screw up, and difficult to get right. I think the mk21 is a great cap to own for tapers that want all the benefits of an omni without all the challenges of running an omni. I'm also going to double down on my initial read that the 21 is a slightly-more-directional omni, whereas the 22 is a cardioid that brings the bass (though it's definitely significantly more open than your average cardioid).

I'm very happy that I own both microphones, and there's room in my mic locker for each. I'll reach for them for very different reasons, depending on which venue and where inside of the venue I'm setting up in.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2
2x Schoeps mk21
2x Schoeps mk22
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1x Schoeps mk41

Grace Lunatec V3
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2x Schoeps cmc6
2x Schoeps KC5
2x Nbob KCY
2x Naiant PFA

Sound Devices Mixpre-6
Marantz PMD-661

Offline checht

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2022, 11:38:54 AM »
Super informative and helpful post, thanks!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2022, 03:17:42 PM »
Gave these recordings a listen last night on headphones and was noting much of what wforwumbo mentioned above in regard to the response differences.

Then, true to personal form I suppose, I ended up sync'ing the two and playing around with careful adjustment of their relative levels in combination.  Granted, part of the benefit achieved in doing that is finding the sweet spot in terms of frequency response / mid-range clarity, but it's difficult to tease out how much the tuning of the combined polar stereo sensitivity pattern is also is at play, which when doing that is altered simultaneously.  My own experience leads me to believe that modification of the polar aspect is significant - and more so than many folks might think.

Sure, native frequency response differences are always of core importance in themselves, yet EQ is a powerful and available tool in that regard, whereas combined stereo sensitivity pattern and whatever else happens to be derived from it is essentially baked-in and represents something we ordinarily have no control over afterward, other than by doing something akin this.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 05:01:29 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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