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Author Topic: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System  (Read 5535 times)

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Offline nebulax

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Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« on: December 17, 2021, 10:02:02 PM »
So Neumann finally comes out with a electret condenser microphone. Wonder if it'll suitable for stealth mic use?

https://www.soundonsound.com/news/miniature-instrument-mics-neumann
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2021, 10:21:47 PM »
Interested in seeing the frequency response graph.
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Offline morst

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2021, 07:17:58 AM »
OMG I WANT TWO OF THEM.
If they suck I'll figure out what to do with them.

Offline capnhook

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2021, 08:30:29 AM »
from that page:

On its own, a KK 14 capsule is set to cost €279, but Neumann are also introducing a large range of attachment and connection options, the latter including mini-XLR, 3.5mm jack, Lemo and MicroDot connectors, and the former comprising nine mounts for various instruments including brass, strings, piano and percussion. Complete sets comprising a capsule, a gooseneck, cables, an XLR adaptor, an instrument mount and a windshield are priced at €629.
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2021, 03:34:32 PM »
Looks nice, hope it can handle high rockconcert db's...

Found this on: https://www.thomann.de/gr/neumann_mcm_kk_14.htm

"Neumann MCM KK 14; capsule head of the Miniature Clip Microphone System MCM; electret technology; polar pattern: cardioid; max. SPL: 152 dB; native interfaces to most transmitter bodypacks (3.5 mm jack / MicroDot / Lemo / 4-pin mini-XLR); titanium housing"
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 03:45:26 PM by Popmarter »
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Offline heva

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2021, 05:18:28 PM »
Interesting it's numbered 14; related to sennheiser ke14 (Ambeo)?

Offline jbell

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2021, 11:54:48 AM »
Me too!  These look pretty sweet. I wonder when U.S. vendors will have them.

OMG I WANT TWO OF THEM.
If they suck I'll figure out what to do with them.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 01:29:37 PM by jbell »
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2021, 06:20:34 PM »
Interesting they can terminated to microdot. I wonder if the DPA MMA-A can power them?
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2022, 04:47:11 PM »
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2022, 10:04:20 PM »
B&H has them up for pre-order, but the listing is light on specs.  The B&H summary mentions a 12mm diaphragm, while the article linked above mentions  something about 8mm.  The DPA 4006 etc. caps are about 18mm in diameter and can be powered by an MMA-A and DPA active cables.  It's not yet clear how much smaller the Neumann kk14 will be, nor what voltage will be needed for them.

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2022, 10:59:54 PM »
Thanks for the link and frequency graph. These things look like the roll off A LOT of bass.
some pics on Instagram and this article

https://en.soundlightup.com/archives-3/reports/neumann-mcm-ein-stern-ist-geboren.html
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2022, 02:03:54 AM »
That rolloff is typical of directional microphones designed for placement close to their sound sources. I don't know about this particular graph, but over the decades, Neumann has typically shown on-axis response at the equivalent of a 1-meter pickup distance. Other manufacturers (e.g. DPA and Audio-Technica) may use shorter measurement distances (30 or even 15 cm), where proximity effect boosts the bass significantly. When picking up more ordinary-distance sound sources you won't get that boost, of course. Thus the rolloff shown in Neumann's graph may well be a true indication of what you'd actually pick up in the kind of recording that most people here mostly do.

Often we as consumers don't know how the manufacturer's curves were obtained. Even if we did have that information, how does one convert a 15- or 30-cm curve into a 1-meter curve? It's an industry-wide problem, but the manufacturers don't seem interested in solving it.

The best that we on the consumer side can do is, when a manufacturer says that their microphone was designed mainly for a certain type of use, understand that a microphone can't be equally good for other situations that have very different technical requirements.

WiFiJeff, the article seems to say that smaller diameters such as 8 mm were considered, but 12 mm was ultimately chosen. That dimension normally refers to the active area of the diaphragm (i.e. the part of the Mylar that gold is evaporated onto) rather than its entire physical size. 12 mm is only slightly smaller than average as the diameter of the active area for small-diaphragm condenser microphones.

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 08:00:53 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2022, 12:43:45 PM »
I wonder if the cable will be easily able to be separated from the gooseneck. I don't see any pictures of the mics without.

Offline jbell

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2022, 03:35:45 PM »
Looks like you buy the caps and then the goose neck or a cable system for p48 adapters or minixlr's

I wonder if the cable will be easily able to be separated from the gooseneck. I don't see any pictures of the mics without.
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Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2022, 03:24:23 AM »
Has anyone tried this one yet? any more info on of it is useful to us?
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2022, 05:27:08 PM »
holy moly these are tiny tiny. same size as the mics on my pcm-a10. MK4 for reference



now to attempt to measure those threads

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2022, 06:10:52 PM »
Have you had a chance to use them at a show?
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mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2022, 06:27:26 PM »
Have you had a chance to use them at a show?
they literally arrived an hour ago. havent even figured out how i am going to mount and connect to them. leery to spend an additional $400 on the goosenecks to cut up

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2022, 12:15:46 AM »
cool, please more pics and whats up with the goosenecks?
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2022, 02:17:55 AM »
is there a way to strip the cable out of the gooseneck and use it as a regular cable with XLR?
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2022, 03:26:00 AM »
cool, please more pics...
here ya go. i think i got the threads sized but not 100%. need to bug my machinist buddy, the plug and ring gauges to measure those threads arent cheap

note how it is similar size to a TBxM mini xlr



can you imagine a pen-sized body with a TB3M mini-xlr in the back? would be the size of one of those keychain maglights and useful for open taping

« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 03:27:32 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2022, 03:41:21 AM »
...and whats up with the goosenecks?

is there a way to strip the cable out of the gooseneck and use it as a regular cable with XLR?

whats up with the goosenecks is they are really expensive for what they do. not only are they $199 a pop they come with a proprietary coax connector which necessitates another cable. $39 for AC31 locking minijack, $99 for AC32 lemo, $89 for AC33 microdot,  $69 for AC34 4pin mini XLR

to get them to XLR/phantom you need the $109 MCM100 output stage which is similar to the DPA DAD6001 except it is locking minijack instead of microdot. i imagine the standard dpa (or chinese knockoffs) would work with the neumann microdot cables

but using factory components with no hacks, per channel, after $299 for the capsule, you're looking at $350 for the rest ($199 gooseneck+ $39 AC31 + $109 phantom adapter)

im going to grab a gooseneck and an AC31 for testing purposes and will eat restock on them. i need to put a meter to the gooseneck and make sure it is passive. its tiny and i suppose there could be an FET in there but not sure. Apart from that i know the voltage requirements from the specs and will try the various 2-wire interfaces i have. once i know i can power the cap its just a matter of machining male ends that are cheaper and smaller than the goosenecks. i need to source a 1mm spring pin contact like the goosenecks use
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 03:51:27 AM by mountainhop »

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2022, 11:04:05 AM »
^Watching this with interest. Thanks for the pictures

Offline Popmarter

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2022, 01:15:03 PM »
...and whats up with the goosenecks?

is there a way to strip the cable out of the gooseneck and use it as a regular cable with XLR?

whats up with the goosenecks is they are really expensive for what they do. not only are they $199 a pop they come with a proprietary coax connector which necessitates another cable. $39 for AC31 locking minijack, $99 for AC32 lemo, $89 for AC33 microdot,  $69 for AC34 4pin mini XLR

to get them to XLR/phantom you need the $109 MCM100 output stage which is similar to the DPA DAD6001 except it is locking minijack instead of microdot. i imagine the standard dpa (or chinese knockoffs) would work with the neumann microdot cables

but using factory components with no hacks, per channel, after $299 for the capsule, you're looking at $350 for the rest ($199 gooseneck+ $39 AC31 + $109 phantom adapter)

im going to grab a gooseneck and an AC31 for testing purposes and will eat restock on them. i need to put a meter to the gooseneck and make sure it is passive. its tiny and i suppose there could be an FET in there but not sure. Apart from that i know the voltage requirements from the specs and will try the various 2-wire interfaces i have. once i know i can power the cap its just a matter of machining male ends that are cheaper and smaller than the goosenecks. i need to source a 1mm spring pin contact like the goosenecks use

Thanks, which you all the best figuring this out. Following this close.  8)
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Offline crunchy

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2022, 07:31:37 PM »
^Watching this with interest. Thanks for the pictures

Same, this looks nice.

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2022, 12:37:24 AM »
Wow.  Suddenly a whole new world is opening up ...
Electret capsules should be able to power from a battery box .. or plug in power.

Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2022, 12:51:34 AM »
Wow.  Suddenly a whole new world is opening up ...
Electret capsules should be able to power from a battery box .. or plug in power.

per the limited specs we have they want 5-10V

Maximum SPL   153 dB SPL, with Supply = 10 V, Rfeed = 20 Kilohms, for THD < 0.5%
143 dB SPL, with Supply = 5 V, Rfeed = 8.25 Kilohms, for THD < 0.5%


ill test them with as many devices as i can. looking like a homemade battery box would want the current limiting resistors to be 10-15K ohms for a typical 9V battery

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2022, 08:24:00 AM »
It would be cool if the Microdot cables worked with a d vice or mma 6000
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER 500 | AKG ck61 & ck63> Nbob actives
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Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

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mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2022, 08:37:02 AM »
It would be cool if the Microdot cables worked with a d vice or mma 6000

yeah it would

will certainly be testing that tomorrow but i have to do it on the bench with a microdot pigtail, alligator clips, and an AC31 cable, as the AC33 microdot cable is not available yet anywhere.

electrically it should be the same. hopefully the KK14 has the right impedance to turn the d:vice on, unlike line-in hacks which need a resistor to fool the d:vice into turning on

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2022, 10:32:28 AM »

I'm very curious about how these will perform at any kind of distance.

The frequency graph https://en-de.neumann.com/kk-14#technical-data shows linear response at 15cm distance down to 20hz but the "farfield" response shows significant roll off starting at 350hz and down to -20dB at 20hz.

This is what you want to limit proximity effect when you are close miking an instrument but not necessarily what you want when you are more than a few feet away from the source.
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Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2022, 04:21:52 PM »
coming along. got the gooseneck and was able to do a variety of tests. not going to type out all here until posts start going through, which hasnt happened since i had to start a new acct.

lets just say the audio tests exceeded my expectations

mounting sans gooseneck is coming along. pics of a crude mount are below but say they are yet to be approved by moderator so you probably cant see them yet.

 now that i have the threads sized im working on a more elegant solution, stay tuned

--------------

edit: giving up on attachments images still "awaiting approval" days later, here's an imgur link

https://imgur.com/a/l7QHRF9

« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 11:30:50 AM by mountainhop »

Offline mountainhop

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2022, 09:27:25 AM »
a few more details now that my posts are working

test setup: KK14 capsule+MCM100 gooseneck+AC31 cable (sennheiser style trs)

microdot cables arent available anywhere yet so i had to do my microdot testing with some pigtails and alligator clips

first test i did was just PIP on the A10 - it worked well and i could not see any audible or visual distortion in the waveform by generating the loudest sound i could with a monitor. also worked with a church ugly 9V to similar results

for microdot tests i used two pieces of gear. it worked fine on an MMA6000, ran a KK14 on one channel and a 4011+MMP-G on the other. the 4011 was about 10dB more sensitive as expected, as the KK14 are very low sens - 3.6 mv/Pa vs the typical ~11mV/Pa for a 4011.

so that's a consideration. 4060s are around 20 mV/Pa, 4061s about 6mV/Pa. the 4071 "extreme" version is 2mV/Pa. typically as sensitivity goes down, self-noise goes up. that 406x series are 23, 26, and 33 dBA self-noise respectively. of course diaphragm size helps, and the 11mV/PA 4011s clock in at 18 dB.

The KK14 is somewhere in between the miniatures and a ("full size" for our typical use) condensor. its 3.6 mV/PA low-sens comes in at a respectable 23 dBA. so, directionality aside, it has a noise floor as low as a 4060, yet a max SPL higher than a 4061. So pretty ideal for our application

ok so back to the tests, with the gain set 10dB higher for the neumann, i tested both an audio source then put it outside to record 'silence' (rural area at night=pretty quiet). the resulting noise looked the same on both, the noise floor was below ambient. id have to build a soundproof box to test them better than that (and i might...dont threaten me with a good time!)

so a pretty good test if it can hang with a 4011. sound-wise they were comparable but i realize the limitations of a home test so ill save that for a real venue test.

ok so on to the d:vice. unfortunately it wasn't plug and play. the kk14 is higher impedance and lower current draw than either of the dpa microdot mics, and the d:vice wouldnt recognize it. easily defeated with the addition of a load resistor in parallel, so this would need to be built into the cabling. i could be wrong, but my guess is the microdot accessory cable is a straight wire and it wouldn't make a difference if i had the actual cable. Again it works fine with a passive pre like the MMA6000 but the d:vice needs to see the right load to fire up.

So if you want an off-the-shelf solution for the d:vice this isnt it, and i wouldn't recommend doubling the price of your capsule by adding a gooseneck and cable anyway. measuring the gooseneck, it appears completely passive. resistance was 5 ohms including the extension cable, and the continuity/diode test worked both ways.

ive already sized the threads per the pic above and have some additional parts on the way including what i need to make that center contact. there's enough real estate inside the cap that i should be able to make cable ends that are darn near flush with the back of the cap. like 3/16" or less deep with a side cable exit 

i have a show on friday and will try to take it with me and find a loud AF spot to test it with the A10 with and without the ugly BB. thats the only real field-worthy setup i have right now and i will be wired up with my d:vice so i dont want to be tinkering with that inside

while it did seem to work great on  PIP with the A10 (likely due to the capsule's low current consumption) keep in mind the two caveats:
1. i am not able to generate super loud sounds at home
2. that is still only one capsule and the A10 powering two caps might look different as its probably one current-limited power rail split to 2 channels

so i can do a kinda test this week but not a full test until i build out my own cable ends, id rather not buy another gooseneck right now. That said im confident that if it works that well on PIP that battery solution would be light. a 28A would run a pair of these forever

will report back
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 09:36:32 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2022, 09:47:48 AM »

I'm very curious about how these will perform at any kind of distance.

The frequency graph https://en-de.neumann.com/kk-14#technical-data shows linear response at 15cm distance down to 20hz but the "farfield" response shows significant roll off starting at 350hz and down to -20dB at 20hz.

This is what you want to limit proximity effect when you are close miking an instrument but not necessarily what you want when you are more than a few feet away from the source.

not uncommon with pressure gradient condensers

from another thread:
4011 cardioid


not *that* much different than the KK14, though they dont tell us what distance "freefield" is. assuming its 1m or more its not much different than we would expect from the 4011... its always a challenge to compare different mfr's measurements apples-to-apples... we will see when we put it in an actual room




« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 09:50:47 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2022, 07:17:17 AM »
- All pressure gradient microphones have proximity effect, not only condensers (unless we get into "variable-D" microphones which no one here is using TTBMK).

- "Free field" effectively means direct and anechoic rather than any particular measuring distance. It's "free" in the sense of "unobstructed", with room boundaries considered as obstructions if any sound bounces off of them and then reaches the microphone indirectly.

- The DIN/IEC standard refers to "plane wave" conditions, which would mean that no proximity effect should be included at all. But nothing in the real world generates true plane waves, so the effect can only be approximated. Proximity effect trails off gradually as you get farther away from the sound source, though, and typically is still evident at 1 meter, assuming a point source or the like. To reduce it to where it's negligible, you would generally need a greater distance, depending on the geometry of the capsule. This is particularly true for supercardioid or figure-8 patterns, where the effect is greater than for an equivalent cardioid, and for larger microphones in general.

The thing is, I know of no manufacturer that follows this rule to the letter. Neumann, Schoeps, Sennheiser, I believe AKG when they still existed, and many/most other European manufacturers of studio microphones as well as some in other countries, generally have used a 1-meter (or calculated equivalent) measurement distance. They do it because they have always done it and because the others are doing it and they don't want to be the only one that looks bad.

Nowadays some manufacturers specify different models differently, depending on the intended application. Microphones designed for very close miking might be measured at 15 or 30 cm (about 6 or 12 inches). This makes the graphs easier to interpret for people who really use microphones at such distances. But such graphs are difficult to interpret for other miking distances, and can deceive those who don't understand the issue, or who set their concern aside out of sheer enthusiasm when they see a bright, shiny object that they want to own. (Of course that could never happen here ...)

Even if you know what measurement distance was used (which the manufacturers don't often tell you), there's no set formula for converting a 15 or 30 cm curve to a 1-meter curve. It depends, as I said, on the acoustical design and physical dimensions of the capsule. So I'm always glad when a manufacturer indicates the low-frequency response at various distances.

--best regards
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 01:29:27 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2022, 12:17:21 AM »
what is that? 🤤
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2022, 05:44:14 AM »
its a work in progress of the first prototype of a small cable end to replace the gooseneck - a part that otherwise doesn't yet exist in nature (that we know of)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2022, 10:54:05 AM »
so great you do this, have you tried them in the field yet?
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2022, 01:24:21 PM »
so great you do this, have you tried them in the field yet?
i only had one gooseneck and i handheld it at points in a recent gig where i had a stereo pair of subcards in my hat. it was extremely loud stack taping situation and it didnt overload. beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2022, 02:12:19 PM »
Nice work and exploration of these thus far, Mountainhop.

I somehow missed this thread when it originated, but happy to find, join and follow it now. The KK14 is a very cool development that strongly piques my interest as it makes for a potentially attractive alternative to the DPA 4098H miniature supercardioids I currently employ in my surround/stereo recording rig (5 of 8 total channels) .

A few comments:
This microphone system appears designed to address market currently dominated by the now ubiquitous miniature DPA goose-neck directional mics intended to be clamped directly to instruments.  Because of that, in addition to the mounts and goosenecks, the measurements, response tailoring, and SPL handling all reflect that kind of close-mounted use.   In comparison to the DPA "on-instrument" mics, the DPA 4098H I use is (was?) designed for installed hanging choir microphone and podium applications.  As such it has a somewhat higher sensitivity, lower self-noise and max SPL (think 4060 verses 4061) and uses a slightly longer tiny interference tube grid, yet otherwise essentially shares the same design lineage.

In our concert taper applications, the KK14's response is likely to produce a very similar low-frequency proximity roll off in comparison to the DPA 4098, producing a "clean and lean" sound direct to the recorder.  In my experience that proximity roll off is very linear and can be rather easily compensated for with EQ.  Sometimes with overdriven PA bass the inherent proximity roll off at typical taper distances is just about right on its own - in any case it is less severe, more musical, and easier to manage than the insertion of a low-cut filter.  I use 4098 in combination with a pair of 4061 omnis to achieve flexibility over LF response and  also collective pattern at the array level, and could not effectively run an 8 channel array if the microphones were not miniature.

..beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

That's what it takes.  ..along with LF EQ as long as one is open to doing so.  I used MG M21 supercards as comparison reference when initially assessing the DPA 4098H.



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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2022, 04:26:30 PM »
Marking the thread so I can geek out with everyone else from a safe distance.  Thank you for your work mountainhop.  I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2022, 04:43:52 PM »
I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.

His old account is still active, it appears...

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2022, 05:56:04 PM »
Nice work and exploration of these thus far, Mountainhop.

I somehow missed this thread when it originated, but happy to find, join and follow it now. The KK14 is a very cool development that strongly piques my interest as it makes for a potentially attractive alternative to the DPA 4098H miniature supercardioids I currently employ in my surround/stereo recording rig (5 of 8 total channels) .

A few comments:
This microphone system appears designed to address market currently dominated by the now ubiquitous miniature DPA goose-neck directional mics intended to be clamped directly to instruments.  Because of that, in addition to the mounts and goosenecks, the measurements, response tailoring, and SPL handling all reflect that kind of close-mounted use.   In comparison to the DPA "on-instrument" mics, the DPA 4098H I use is (was?) designed for installed hanging choir microphone and podium applications.  As such it has a somewhat higher sensitivity, lower self-noise and max SPL (think 4060 verses 4061) and uses a slightly longer tiny interference tube grid, yet otherwise essentially shares the same design lineage.

In our concert taper applications, the KK14's response is likely to produce a very similar low-frequency proximity roll off in comparison to the DPA 4098, producing a "clean and lean" sound direct to the recorder.  In my experience that proximity roll off is very linear and can be rather easily compensated for with EQ.  Sometimes with overdriven PA bass the inherent proximity roll off at typical taper distances is just about right on its own - in any case it is less severe, more musical, and easier to manage than the insertion of a low-cut filter.  I use 4098 in combination with a pair of 4061 omnis to achieve flexibility over LF response and  also collective pattern at the array level, and could not effectively run an 8 channel array if the microphones were not miniature.

..beyond that im reserving judgement on overall sound until i can give it a fair fight as a stereo pair next to another pair of cardioids

That's what it takes.  ..along with LF EQ as long as one is open to doing so.  I used MG M21 supercards as comparison reference when initially assessing the DPA 4098H.

well these are cards not supercards of course

the 4099 (similar to 4098) always seemed to have a strange response/pattern to my ears that wasnt ideal for our application. not sure if that was due to the tight pattern or the interference tube design. the interference tubes are somewhat delicate for our use as well

as you know, pattern alone doesnt make a mic as it is frequency dependent, and in ambient/room situations that can certainly add color, for better or worse

but youre right, these do appear far more linear in LF response, if neumanns plot is to be believed

Marking the thread so I can geek out with everyone else from a safe distance.  Thank you for your work mountainhop.  I noticed your old account died and a new one went up so I am glad to see you are back.
yeah those few dozen posts are orphaned, which makes searching a little more challenging, but theyre still there it seems. not a lot of content in any case, and largely in same threads
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 05:58:32 PM by mountainhop »

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 11:49:34 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2022, 11:51:14 AM »
good prototype i need to find some more appropriate cable like some dpa 1.6mm or 2.2mm microdot

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2022, 12:12:41 PM »
yeah!! here is my money 😂
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2022, 12:16:41 PM »
Here's one option:

https://www.cdint.com/catalog/category/Cables/10-32
^
Choose appropriate microdot termination (size 10-32, straight female, straight or right angle male), preinstalled on whatever length of cable you want.  Their standard RG174 cable works nicely for my applications.  For this kind of thing I tend to purchase a single cable pre-terminated with dots at both ends that is twice my required length, cut it in half and re-terminate the cut ends to mini-xlr or whatever you need at the other end to create a pair.

RG174 is nicely jacketed, robust, and the center conductor is far easier to solder than the cable DPA uses.
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2022, 12:44:50 PM »
sorry for the ignorance but how many volts do you need to power this setup? 9V?
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2022, 12:45:42 PM »
i think the next set will have mmcx jacks built in to the housing to use common headphone cables for PIP, or the microdot to mmcx cables on that site interchangably

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2022, 12:50:01 PM »
sorry for the ignorance but how many volts do you need to power this setup? 9V?
i was able to run one mic on PIP. now that i have this cable built i technically have a pair, so i will attempt to test if the A10 can power a pair.

based on my observations so far, as well as neumann's spec sheet, 2.5-10V is the range. higher obviously better for high SPL though the <3V PIP did fine in a quick test at a loud show (with a single mic, aka half the required current)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2022, 12:53:05 PM »
what is cdint's turnaround time? and what is the diameter of their RG174. the cable on the prototype i built is RG174, marked 'bedea #1098 RG174 made in Germany". i have a few of these pigtails around but the cable is a bit thick for this purpose, imo
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 01:14:46 PM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2022, 01:24:41 PM »
Around 5 business days for my RG174 back in July

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2022, 01:31:05 PM »
Around 5 business days for my RG174 back in July
do you know the diameter?

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2022, 01:34:41 PM »
Around 5 business days for my RG174 back in July
do you know the diameter?

~2.6mm according to my inexpensive calipers

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2022, 02:45:53 PM »
Very exciting!
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2022, 10:32:49 PM »
did a little more testing today. I got my "YPA" (chinese knockoff) versions of the DAD3056 microdot to 5-pin lectrosonics servo input so i could use microdot mics with the SPDR i picked up recently. Fortunately the knockoffs passed all tests on being electrically identical to the DPA versions (pin 1 was properly grounded to chassis, pins 2&4 were shorted to tell the input to produce 4V PIP, and there was the proper 3K9 resistor on pin 3 mic input)

neumann's  KK14 specs are as follows:
Maximum SPL   153 dB SPL, with Supply = 10 V, Rfeed = 20 Kilohms, for THD < 0.5%
143 dB SPL, with Supply = 5 V, Rfeed = 8.25 Kilohms, for THD < 0.5%


I was unable to get any response from sennheiser/neumann tech support, but lectro support suggested 6.6K resistor with the 4V their input provides

it did seem to work fine with the default 3.9K resistor in the adapter, i imagine this slightly lower resistance would only bump up output a bit on this very low-sens mic. any advice on the practical considerations here, or if i am putting the caps at risk, would be welcomed. technically the 3K9 resistor at 4V will allow up to about 1mA of current for these caps that want a max of 0.26 mA, so not sure if thats bad necessarily. Unless there is some other purpose than current-limiting for that resistor in that circuit. I would find it hard to believe that neumann would provide a mic with microdot out that wasnt compatible with the common DPA/lectro/countryman/etc microdot inputs, without providing specific guidance otherwise

so i did a home speaker test handholding the KK14 (on custom cable) next to a 4011GS, both single mics into the SPDR. Not an ideal test but at least a good comp. Adjusted the input levels on the channels independently on the recorder to get reasonably similar waveforms

The distance i was holding them can definitely be considered 'nearfield'. 15-30cm to the sound source

The KK14 definitely had less bottom end, but seemed to me to have a bit more clarity than the 4011s (which are kind of known by some for their 'dark' sound'). Per gutbucket's suggestion i did a little EQ on the bottom end and was satisfied with the result

the three files (4011 untouched, KK14 untouched, and KK14 eq'd) are here: https://mega.nz/folder/tPEWkLIB#nSlOB2jQ1tQpAlD3gqR2hQ

considering im usually removing low end from my recordings in post, this may not be objectionable in practice. Still, the proof wont be in the pudding until i get them in a free-field environment at a show, which i have a few coming up in the next few weeks (and should have a pair of second-gen cables by middle of this coming week)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 11:01:23 PM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2022, 06:58:00 PM »
can’t wait to hear the results
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2022, 11:32:19 AM »

SNIP < considering im usually removing low end from my recordings in post, this may not be objectionable in practice. > SNIP

This is where the rubber meets the road in a lot of what we are doing taping live shows. If the low end roll off is similar to what you are often doing in post then it all works out for the intended use.
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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2022, 11:51:32 AM »
success on friday night. got the parts just in time on thursday to build the field-worthy version. got it dialed in where i was able to build a half-dozen of the center spring pin assemblies (by far the trickiest part)  in a few hours and bat 1000 on location to the tiny center pad on the capsule. so i built out one complete pair using mmc-x connectors, these worked splendidly with an off-the-shelf mmc-x headphone cable (albeit a tad short), Like most IEMs, when properly seated it is a robust connection.

i ran KK14>church ugly 9V bat box>A10 successfully. i ran without the bat box for the opening DJ set which was reasonably loud (albeit maybe a tad shy of the headliner volume) with no ill effects. ill try to do more tests sans bat box in an extreme stack environment in the future

so the million-dollar question: how do they sound? I would say i was pleased with their perfomance but technical limitations prevent a straight apples-to-apples with the 4011s i hoped to compare them to. namely:

1. i boned it and the 4015s were still in my hat from the last gig so id be comparing subcards with cards

2. the 4015s were in a proper mount at approx 70 deg and ~110mm for this stack tape. lacking a proper mount for these (because i built them too small, and was also rushed to get out to the show), i jammed them in there on the outside of the 4015s in some little windtech windscreens i had lying around, and so they were effectively A-B at about 150mm with the other mics and kinda my forehead as a bit of a baffle

3. the KK14s were in the windscreens which had potential to muffle the highs relative to the 4015s that were naked and right up against the thin fabric of the k****l v**t**r. The windscreens are technically deeper than my side-cable setup would allow. my best measurement is that there is a 10mm void space in front of the capsule before the foam, and then 15 mm of foam in the front and 9mm on the sides. It is good that windscreens exist for these! i bet they would do well outdoors



as expected the 4015s need rolloff work but the KK14s seem to need nothing. bottom end is there but not overpowering. hope to run next to the 4011s later this week in a proper setup. i might literally epoxy the KK14 cable ends right to the 3d-printed 110 70 deg mount, because i have the extra parts

im not sure i will post this show publicly, so if you want samples, message me and ill link you to a 4ch polywav with the two sources
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 11:56:25 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2022, 08:55:53 PM »
this seems well-built and will be the next one i try. 6.5 feet so it can actually go up over my head and reach to the bottom of my pants pocket unlike the 4' cable i previously tried

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=30362

the good thing about most mmc-x cables is they are built with enthusiasts in mind so at least they have twisted pairs/oxygen free/the proper amount of snake oil, so at least there is some standard vs the super cheap off-the-shelf $1 mini to mini patch cords where the molded end eventually craps out on you

this doesnt really solve the microdot connection issue, microdot to mmc-x cables are over $40 a pop. cheaper to build ones with dedicated fixed microdot cables since those cable ends will need dedicated circuitry to work with the d:vice anyway
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 09:33:04 PM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2022, 08:46:53 AM »
Excellent!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2022, 10:59:37 AM »
success on friday night. got the parts just in time on thursday to build the field-worthy version. got it dialed in where i was able to build a half-dozen of the center spring pin assemblies (by far the trickiest part)  in a few hours and bat 1000 on location to the tiny center pad on the capsule. so i built out one complete pair using mmc-x connectors, these worked splendidly with an off-the-shelf mmc-x headphone cable (albeit a tad short), Like most IEMs, when properly seated it is a robust connection.

i ran KK14>church ugly 9V bat box>A10 successfully. i ran without the bat box for the opening DJ set which was reasonably loud (albeit maybe a tad shy of the headliner volume) with no ill effects. ill try to do more tests sans bat box in an extreme stack environment in the future

so the million-dollar question: how do they sound? I would say i was pleased with their perfomance but technical limitations prevent a straight apples-to-apples with the 4011s i hoped to compare them to. namely:

1. i boned it and the 4015s were still in my hat from the last gig so id be comparing subcards with cards

im not sure i will post this show publicly, so if you want samples, message me and ill link you to a 4ch polywav with the two sources

 :clapping:

Thanks for the testing. 

I'll send you a PM so that I can listen to the 4ch polywav with the two sources.

hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2022, 12:27:32 AM »
all set up for show tomorrow (pardon the sloppy hot glue job)

not ideal spacing but should be best comp yet as both pairs will be running into d:vices

« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 12:30:02 AM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2022, 09:33:00 AM »
all set up for show tomorrow (pardon the sloppy hot glue job)

not ideal spacing but should be best comp yet as both pairs will be running into d:vices


 :clapping:
hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #65 on: November 04, 2022, 11:47:09 PM »
LOL @ hot melt glue.

perfect
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2022, 10:28:43 PM »
ok time for the weirdest set of comp files ever

included are samples of the raw files as recorded (normalized to -20dB RMS), as well as attempts using izotope 10's 'match EQ feature' to make them sound like each other, at 50% and 100% settings

note i made no attempt to make the recordings sound as good as i could (feel free to if you care), just a simple mic to mic comp, of two very different-sounding mics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlRhv-GAs-jdldCo9F53hXTm-K96eGXD/view?usp=sharing


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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2022, 07:23:30 PM »
added file "ch1-2-4011-ch3-4-kk14.wav" which is a medley of different dynamic sections including some "bass bombs", drum solos and quieter guitar parts, better than the randomly chosen sample in the EQ files which is a little loud/chaotic

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12UAmkFFC_IzcK0R-cP6Vze4KZZ1dyIag/view?usp=sharing

this is a polywav but note the sources are not necessarily perfectly time-aligned, a bit of drift towards the end
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 08:39:02 PM by mountainhop »

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2022, 08:54:02 AM »
ok time for the weirdest set of comp files ever

included are samples of the raw files as recorded (normalized to -20dB RMS), as well as attempts using izotope 10's 'match EQ feature' to make them sound like each other, at 50% and 100% settings

note i made no attempt to make the recordings sound as good as i could (feel free to if you care), just a simple mic to mic comp, of two very different-sounding mics

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LlRhv-GAs-jdldCo9F53hXTm-K96eGXD/view?usp=sharing

Thanks for this.  Good methodology I think and very informative to compare both raw files and the match EQ'd versions.  I've not listened to the polywav version yet.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2022, 09:08:19 AM »
try as i might they sound nothing alike.

i do think the kk14s would kick ass in an OMT with an omni or two

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2022, 09:28:05 AM »
I found it especially interesting to compare the differences in the mid and high frequency range of the match-EQ'd versions.
Granted some of the difference there may be attributable to the mounting differences.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2022, 10:13:25 AM »
I found it especially interesting to compare the differences in the mid and high frequency range of the match-EQ'd versions.
Granted some of the difference there may be attributable to the mounting differences.

i have open-taping theater shows with a bigger PA this weekend. will try to stand mount in identical configurations. since these will be section tapes i will prob do KK14+4011+4018 into the F6. 4011+4018 always bats 1000 from the section and we get a comp as well. directionality aside the kk14s kinda sound more like the 4018 tbh. (less bottom end)

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2022, 07:40:02 AM »
These things are so small
4015gs/4061->mma:a d-vice/mixpre 10 ii/zoom f3

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2022, 09:21:27 AM »
These things are so small

welcome to team tiny neumann!

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Re: Neumann KK 14 Miniature Clip Mic System
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2022, 09:37:02 AM »
they're gonna make great earbuds for wearing to concerts :)
4015gs/4061->mma:a d-vice/mixpre 10 ii/zoom f3

 

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